The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

GenemZ

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Do you know what "any man" means?

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as thru fire."

You're really not willing to get it. Read how that quoted passage began?
2 Corinthians 3:11-15.... remember?

I will give it to you. So, all can see what it is you wish to deny.

And, need to deny. Deny to make your false notion to work!

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than
the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.


Paul was addressing BELIEVERS! Those whom had salvation via faith in Christ!
 
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FineLinen

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You're really not willing to get it. Read how that quoted passage began?
2 Corinthians 3:11-15.... remember?

I will give it to you. So, all can see what it is you wish to deny.

And, need to deny. Deny to make your false notion to work!

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than
the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.


Paul was addressing BELIEVERS! Those whom had salvation via faith in Christ!


Why not find some holocaust deniers forum and try your way of reasoning there?
They might appreciate your "flexibility." Denying is an art form few have mastered.

There is no question the focus of St. Paul was to the "especially" of His great love & grace. The called out ones are chosen in Him as the wonderful first-fruits of reconciliation.

"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially those who believe/ trust in Him. Command this & teach this."
 
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GenemZ

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There is no question the focus of St. Paul was to the "especially" of His great love & grace. The called out ones are chosen in Him as the wonderful first-fruits of reconciliation.

"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially those who believe/ trust in Him. Command this & teach this."


Did Jesus die on the Cross for Satan and his angels? Could he?

Reconciliation can be offered to men. You seem to think men have no choice in the matter.

If you are right? God is playing with dolls only. He should have all created us as believers if what you claim could be truth. Fantasy is a great escape.

Be reconciled to reality.
 
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GenemZ

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There is no question the focus of St. Paul was to the "especially" of His great love & grace. The called out ones are chosen in Him as the wonderful first-fruits of reconciliation.

"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially those who believe/ trust in Him. Command this & teach this."

God saves the unbeliever from his self destructive tendencies when believers in a nation are strong in faith. God is the Savior of all men. Not all men want a savior. There's the catch.

Its dumb to think Jesus died on the Cross to save those who would believe. If you accept the thinking that all men will be reconciled back to God. Why even have the Cross? God wanted to show off? Why not just make all men believers to begin with and be done with it.

Tell us why God went through all the effort and provided time for so much suffering? I His intention was to have all men being believers?
 
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FineLinen

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Did Jesus die on the Cross for Satan and his angels? Could he?

Reconciliation can be offered to men. You seem to think men have no choice in the matter.

If you are right? God is playing with dolls only. He should have all created us as believers if what you claim could be truth. Fantasy is a great escape.

Be reconciled to reality.

Man, as broken as he is by sin, has a choice. The question is whose choice prevails, The Creator or the created?

One little word, one glorious outcome.

That little word is "at", recorded "in" in some Bible translations.

What Does Philippians 2:10 Mean? "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,."

"In order that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth --"
 
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GenemZ

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Man, as broken as he is by sin, has a choice. The question is whose choice prevails, The Creator or the created?

One little word, one glorious outcome.

That little word is "at", recorded "in" in some Bible translations.

What Does Philippians 2:10 Mean? "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,."

"In order that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth --"
What are they doing under the earth if all will be reconciled to God?

God will have all His enemies no longer able to deny that He is Lord.

Do you know what a footstool in the following context means?

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ’
? Mat 22:44​

It was dragging ones enemies who were conquered in battle and forcing them to bow before the Victor King.

Every tongue will confess. They will be His Footstool after the war is over.
 
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Der Alte

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What are they doing under the earth if all will be reconciled to God?
God will have all His enemies no longer able to deny that He is Lord.
Do you know what a footstool in the following context means?

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ’? Mat 22:44
It was dragging ones enemies who were conquered in battle and forcing them to bow before the Victor King.
Every tongue will confess. They will be His Footstool after the war is over.
I have addressed that out-of-context UR proof text several times yet they continue to post it over and over.
Scripture does NOT say that all mankind will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomolgeo occurs eleven times in the NT, in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back)”etc.

Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”
It never means whole-heartedly, no holding back etc.
…..Scripture says that every knee will bow but only believers will do so freely, willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies. How will the enemies of Jesus feel?

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day,* Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[* "That day" -the day of judgement.]
The word of God says every knee will bow. It must be important because it is repeated 3 times.
1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
But the " the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, murderers, sexually immoral, those who practice magic, idolaters, liars," Rev 21:8, etc. who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees, i.e. Jesus’ footstool, and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord.
This is another important point it is recorded 8 times in scripture. The followers of UR ignore these verses.

1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts of the apostles 2:34-35
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool..
6. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
8. Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua, the OT type of Jesus, shows us in Josh. 10.
Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings [who fought against Israel] are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
Joshua 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.

Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
The enemies of Joshua, the first Jesus, were made Joshua’s footstool then destroyed. They did not become faithful, obedient members of his army.
 
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GenemZ

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I have addressed that out-of-context UR proof text several times yet they continue to post it over and over.
Scripture does NOT say that all mankind will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomolgeo occurs eleven times in the NT, in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back)”etc.

I see why we may need to keep repeating it. For they have yet to comprehend what was said, and keep interjecting their own words into the conversation that were not said!

Notice the highlighted words that they refuse to acknowledge.


Do you know what a footstool in the following context means?

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ’
Mat 22:44

Footstool: It was the dragging ones enemies who were conquered in battle, and forcing them to bow before the Victor King.

It will be enforced humiliation! Not some adoring love for the Lord as some claim!

Every tongue will confess. (in pride crushing humiliation and defeat)

They will be made (in humiliation) to be the King's Footstool after the war is over.

Crushing one's enemy decisively hardly elicits love and adoration.

In other words? Unbelievers will not have been restored to the Kingdom and saved!

Not everyone will be living with God for all eternity. Yet, his enemies will be forever confessing He is Lord, but not in adoration and love. They will be crushed into facing reality. Reality that they used to skillfully dodge and evade. No more will they be able to deny the Truth!

grace and peace.....
 
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FineLinen

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Footstool: It was the dragging ones enemies who were conquered in battle, and forcing them to bow before the Victor King.

It will be enforced humiliation! Not some adoring love for the Lord!

Every tongue will confess. (in pride crushing humiliation and defeat)

They will be made (in humiliation) to be the King's Footstool after the war is over.

Crushing your enemy decisively hardly elicits love and adoration.

Wake up young man, arise from your slumber and Christ will give you life.

"That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ινα εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου παν γονυ καμπσηι — hina en tōi onomati Iēsou pan gonu kampsēi). First aorist active subjunctive of καμπτω — kamptō old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ινα — hina Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.

Under the earth (καταχτονιων — katachthoniōn). Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T. " -A.T. Robertson Word Pictures-
 
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Saint Steven

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I think that the posted text of what Paul said stands for itself.
It seemed that you were imposing Damnationist definitions on it to make it work.
My comments stand on their own as well. You probably didn't answer directly because I made a valid point. (can't have that, now can we?)

Saint Steven said:
Could you prove Damnationism using the books that we quote that are written by Universalist authors?

We have a similar difficulty proving Universalism from a Damnationist biased text. (the Bible)
 
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Saint Steven

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I see why we may need to keep repeating it. For you have yet to comprehend what was said, and keep interjecting your own words into the conversation that were not said!

Look again. Notice the highlighted words this time.


Do you know what a footstool in the following context means?

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ’
Mat 22:44

Footstool: It was the dragging ones enemies who were conquered in battle, and forcing them to bow before the Victor King.

It will be enforced humiliation! Not some adoring love for the Lord!

Every tongue will confess. (in pride crushing humiliation and defeat)

They will be made (in humiliation) to be the King's Footstool after the war is over.

Crushing your enemy decisively hardly elicits love and adoration.

In other words? Unbelievers will not have been restored to the Kingdom and saved!

Not everyone will be living with God for all eternity. Yet, his enemies will be forever confessing He is Lord, but not in adoration and love. They will be crushed into facing reality. Reality that they used to skillfully dodge and evade. No more will they be able to deny the Truth!

grace and truth..... !
That's not what the scripture in question means.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
 
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GenemZ

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Wake up young man, arise from your slumber and Christ will give you life.

"That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ινα εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου παν γονυ καμπσηι — hina en tōi onomati Iēsou pan gonu kampsēi). First aorist active subjunctive of καμπτω — kamptō old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ινα — hina Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.

Under the earth (καταχτονιων — katachthoniōn). Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T. " -A.T. Robertson Word Pictures-
That will be the case... But, they will not be saved. When we read "beneath the earth?" What does that tell you? Not, "on earth (saved)" Not, "in heaven "the Bride of Christ."

Beneath the earth?

Does that mean those taking the subway in the USA, or the the tube in the UK), in the future will be acknowledging Jesus is Lord? :angel:

Beneath the earth is where Hades be.

I will keep trying. The Lord has a special this week for patience. Ten for the price of one!
 
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Der Alte

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I see why we may need to keep repeating it. For you have yet to comprehend what was said, and keep interjecting your own words into the conversation that were not said!
Look again. Notice the highlighted words this time.
Do you know what a footstool in the following context means?
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ’ Mat 22:44
Footstool: It was the dragging ones enemies who were conquered in battle, and forcing them to bow before the Victor King.
It will be enforced humiliation! Not some adoring love for the Lord!
Every tongue will confess. (in pride crushing humiliation and defeat)
They will be made (in humiliation) to be the King's Footstool after the war is over.
Crushing your enemy decisively hardly elicits love and adoration.
In other words? Unbelievers will not have been restored to the Kingdom and saved!
Not everyone will be living with God for all eternity. Yet, his enemies will be forever confessing He is Lord, but not in adoration and love. They will be crushed into facing reality. Reality that they used to skillfully dodge and evade. No more will they be able to deny the Truth!
grace and truth..... !
Strange! I thought I was agreeing with you, only adding more scriptural support.
 
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GenemZ

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Strange! I thought I was agreeing with you, only adding more scriptural support.

Sorry if you were.... It did not read that way to me as written. I will need to read it again.

If I did read you wrong? Let my words be for those it was intended, please.

grace and peace.......
 
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GenemZ

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Strange! I thought I was agreeing with you, only adding more scriptural support.
I see now what you said. Sorry for my presumption.

I edited my original post in light of recognizing my mistake.

Thanks for your patience.

grace and peace.......
 
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Der Alte

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I see now what you said. Sorry for my presumption.
I edited my original post in light of recognizing my mistake.
Thanks for your patience.
grace and peace.......
I thought you might have intended that for one of the UR-ites.
 
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Saint Steven

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Should evil be damned?

What is the right approach to a resolved hatred for God?
Those are good questions.
As you know, God requires us to forgive others if we want to be forgiven.
(Matthew 6:15 and Luke 6:37)
And he also requires us to love our enemies. This is a godly character trait.

Forgiveness is the only reasonable option.

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
 
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FineLinen

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That will be the case... But, they will not be saved.

iu


You poor lad. Put on your listening ears, take your fingers out of your ears and focus.

Adam1 = the many "made sinners".

Last Adam = the identical many "made righteous."

Many = many, all = all, polus = polus.
 
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GenemZ

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You poor lad. Put on your listening ears, take your fingers out of your ears and focus.

Adam1 = the many "made sinners".

Last Adam = the identical many "made righteous."

Many = many, all = all, polus = polus.


18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

I will tell you again. No one will be judged for their sins. No unbeliever going to the Lake of Fire will be having their sins mentioned. Why? Jesus bore the penalty for their sins, and what had been judged and paid for can not be judged twice. The law of double jeopardy!

When it comes to unbelievers being sinners? All have received their justification (concerning sin). All.

Its not sin that sends the unbeliever too the Lake of Fire. Evil does that.

Jesus could not pay for man's evil, only his sins. For Jesus to pay for evil he would have had to reject himself.
 
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