The Gender of God (note: WWMC forum)

The Liturgist

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Since the idea of God having gender is an idea that comes up in CF from time to time, I thought the discussion might be of general interest, and I tried to set the context in post #1. But maybe you're right, that it would be better as a private discussion.

I think we made the right decision to have it as a public conversation since we agreed not to debate each other but to conduct a Socratic dialogue for mutual edification. I do agree, if we were going at this as a bitter argument fangs out, well, frankly, I wouldn’t even want to argue about it via PM. But the Socratic method if done right is as different from argument as friendship is from enmity, because dialectics done right requires complete respect for the different points of view and the right of people to have them.

I want to see less arguments and more dialogue between Christians, and so with all due respect, I would greatly prefer if we do this publically.
 
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The Liturgist

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You are looking at it backwards. Man is only one of many masculine things. Sex is only one of many things representative of the real things in Heaven. We have there, 'The Bride of Christ' (feminine). And God (masculine).

So I like where you are coming from on this point, because it reflects the Platonic philosophy used by the early Church, who interestingly associated Aristotle with Gnosticism (despite the apparent similarities between some aspects of Gnostic and Platonic thought). As a philosophy goes, it is also related to the Idealist philosophy of Zoroaster. And your point contains the soteriological aspect which I referenced.

It does not however answer how a spirit can have a gender identity, or why God chose to be represented using masculine terminology or feminine terminology, which I am seeking to explain. To my knowledge, this is the first time a Patristic Traditionalist and a contemporary Episcopalian have ever had a dialogue about this, and I feel confident we will learn a great deal, even if we do not reach an agreement.
 
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The Liturgist

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The problem is with trying to describe God using anthropomorphic terms

But Chalcedonian Christology is an example of anthropomorphological validity, and indeed, neccessity.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I do not agree to your premise here. Whether God reveals God's self to be male, or masculine, or gendered at all, is one of the points under discussion.



This is also one of the points under discussion: whether it is meaningful to assign gender to a Being who is spiritual rather than physical. I currently do not see that the sentence "God is masculine" means anything, but we will see where the conversation goes.

Is "masculine" a reference to Gender (as you imply is only physically observable)? But the physical is most likely a speck of dust compared to a universe of 'spiritual'. Or to put it more plainly, God's economy is infinite. This material economy is obscenely small, to try to put such crass notions as 'us assigning gender to God'.
 
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Mark Quayle

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So I like where you are coming from on this point, because it reflects the Platonic philosophy used by the early Church, who interestingly associated Aristotle with Gnosticism (despite the apparent similarities between some aspects of Gnostic and Platonic thought). As a philosophy goes, it is also related to the Idealist philosophy of Zoroaster. And your point contains the soteriological aspect which I referenced.

It does not however answer how a spirit can have a gender identity, or why God chose to be represented using masculine terminology or feminine terminology, which I am seeking to explain. To my knowledge, this is the first time a Patristic Traditionalist and a contemporary Episcopalian have ever had a dialogue about this, and I feel confident we will learn a great deal, even if we do not reach an agreement.
Thank you, but I can't help but mention (and yes, I know this is unavoidable that we see only from this present point of view) that we are an arrogant bunch of worms, to consider definition and reality dependent on us, as though our silly minds and our weak words could do the job.

But yeah, we do what we can. Carry on.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I know that we, the Church, are the bride of Christ. But where does the Bible say that we are bride of God?
Did I say we are the bride of God? But FWIW, Christ is indeed God.
 
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The Liturgist

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Thank you, but I can't help but mention (and yes, I know this is unavoidable that we see only from this present point of view) that we are an arrogant bunch of worms, to consider definition and reality dependent on us, as though our silly minds and our weak words could do the job.

But yeah, we do what we can. Carry on.

It is my belief that the Divine Essence is incomprehensible; I subscribe to the essence/energies distinction of St. Gregory Palamas, an Eastern Orthodox scholar who defended the practice of Hesychasm. In defending the claims of St. Symeon the New Theologian to have seen the uncreated light of God, emphasized and stressed the Patristic doctrine that we can never comprehend the divine essence; the related consensus patrum Graecorum et syriacorum is that the divine nature can only be understood apophatically, which is to say, via negation. Otherwise God is knowable only through His energies, through which he is not only knowable, but the Eastern Orthodox doctrine agrees with Wesleyan entire sanctification and Calvinist mystical union but in a most intersting Palamist way, by saying that in being saved through theosis, we will, having been deified, be able to participate in the uncreated energies of God, even though, since apotheosis is impossible, we can never attain the absolute perfection that comes with understanding the divine essence, which is incomprehensible to created beings.

Thus, what I am doing is exploring from my tradition, in a dialogue with Ploverwing for our mutual edification, why it is that divine energies, revealed Scipturally or extrapolated apophatically, are consistently revealed in Scripture using the male gender, and am seeking to defend my conclusion that this masculinity is relational to us.

I want to thank you for your post, because stupidly I forgot to introduce or even consider the essence/energies distinction; I feel like my brain forgot it was not in year one at Andover. Using this model I think I can explain my conceptual model of divine masculinity with greater ease.
 
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The Liturgist

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Did I say we are the bride of God? But FWIW, Christ is indeed God.

According to the Chalcedonian and Oriental Orthodox principle of communicatio idiomatum they are in a Christological sense synonymous.
 
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disciple Clint

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Alas it didn’t; I got no work done, I am now nearly three months behind on setting up the website and completing editing the project I am responsible, whereas my colleagues are on schedule or in some cases finished, which is seriously embarrassing. The fact of the matter is I had a horrible nose bleed.

Please pray for me that I can soon make progress.
If your team members are done, ask for help, after all it is a team.
 
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St_Worm2

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I do not agree to your premise here. Whether God reveals God's self to be male, or masculine, or gendered at all, is one of the points under discussion.
Thanks PloverWing, I look forward to reading what you have to say about that.

God bless you!

—David
 
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PloverWing

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@Mark Quayle (and maybe @The Liturgist too): I can imagine that you might be saying that masculinity and femininity are transcendent properties of some kind -- maybe created, maybe uncreated -- that are imperfectly realized in male and female humans, cats, geckos, and so on, but that exist perfectly in some spiritual realm, reminiscent of Plato. If so, I'll work to see what you're getting at, for the sake of mutual understanding, though we'll probably end up disagreeing in the end.

My best definitions of "masculine" and "feminine" all start with "the set of...". "Masculine" is the set of traits that all male organisms have and no female organisms have. Or maybe, the set of traits that all male humans have and no female humans have. Or maybe a statistical one, the set of traits that more than N% of male humans have, for some N. Or a cultural one, the set of traits that more than X% of the American (or Japanese, or Zulu) population expect men to have and women not to have. But it's all defined based on the traits and activities of biological organisms. This is why it's so hard for me to project these categories back onto God, who is not a biological organism.

I'm willing to work with the idea of a spiritually transcendent masculinity, for the sake of discussion, but I really will need a definition of what that might mean, since all my definitions are tied to the bodies and psychology of physical organisms.
 
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The Liturgist

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@Mark Quayle (and maybe @The Liturgist too): I can imagine that you might be saying that masculinity and femininity are transcendent properties of some kind -- maybe created, maybe uncreated -- that are imperfectly realized in male and female humans, cats, geckos, and so on, but that exist perfectly in some spiritual realm, reminiscent of Plato. If so, I'll work to see what you're getting at, for the sake of mutual understanding, though we'll probably end up disagreeing in the end.

My best definitions of "masculine" and "feminine" all start with "the set of...". "Masculine" is the set of traits that all male organisms have and no female organisms have. Or maybe, the set of traits that all male humans have and no female humans have. Or maybe a statistical one, the set of traits that more than N% of male humans have, for some N. Or a cultural one, the set of traits that more than X% of the American (or Japanese, or Zulu) population expect men to have and women not to have. But it's all defined based on the traits and activities of biological organisms. This is why it's so hard for me to project these categories back onto God, who is not a biological organism.

I'm willing to work with the idea of a spiritually transcendent masculinity, for the sake of discussion, but I really will need a definition of what that might mean, since all my definitions are tied to the bodies and psychology of physical organisms.

Well, that’s actually not where I am going, because I reject the idea of Platonic ideals and the Hermetic notion of “as above, so below” in favor of the more grounded, Aristotelian approach favored by later church fathers like St. John of Damascus and most importantly for our purposes, St. Gregory Palamas.

Also, Thomas Aquinas was really into Aristotle, but read him in Latin through the lens of “The Commentator”, Averroes, but still, Aquinas is the Roman Catholic counterpart to Palamas, with a completely different, yet not altogether wrong, although not entirely correct (I mean, the guy did support the Inquisition and the auto da fe, which is why I refuse to venerate him as a Saint; I do venerate St. Dominic because the Inquisition started only after the death of himself and St. Francis (the Franciscans were massively involved in the Inquisition, a fact some of their leaders have consistently sought to dodge the blame for by using their relative popularity compared to Dominicans to shift the blame to the Dominicans who to be fair, played the leading role, but the Franciscans were not uninvolved. If you want to find a Roman Catholic mendicant order with a very good record, uninvolved in the Inquisition, the Trinitarians, one of the two ransoming orders, whose members would raise money to ransom, and, failing that, if need be take the place of Christian laity taken hostage by North African pirates, who were at risk of converting to Islam. This was a major problem in the High Middle Ages and Early Renaissance; the coastal roads in Italy and many other parts of Europe were not safe to travel on because of the risk of pirate raids, chiefly from North Africa (you would think Al-Andalus would be raiding to secure its survival against the Reconquista, but Al-Andalus was a civilized place; a part of me wishes it could have survived in peaceful union with the Kingdom of Spain, and the raiders were chiefly Moroccan, Algerian and Tunisian).

But to me, and even to the Church Fathers who used him, to a large extent, the Platonic idea of a realm of ideals is dualistic and leads inexorably to either Gnosticism, Kabbalah, Hermeticism, Neo-Platonism or the Occult, and I am not hopping a bus going down that highway, because I hear there is a raging fire at the end of that road.
 
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hedrick

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No, God doesn’t have gender.

Gender is a complex mix of biology and culture. It tends to refer either to something that is primarily biology or to a set of characteristics that are thought of as masculine or feminine because they tend on average to be more common for those genders.

I would argue that God has no biology, and that there are Biblical reasons to see in him the best characteristics typically associated with both genders. Both men and women are made in God’s image. In Christ there is no male or female.

Why is God portrayed as male? Of course he isn’t always. Wisdom (which is the basis for the Logos) is portrayed as a woman in Proverbs. But normally he is. I suspect that has to do with the culture out of which Israel arose. God and goddesses tended to have different characteristics, and the Lord was closer to the first.

But I don’t think we ought to push that tradition very far.

I think there needs to a limit to how we use the communication of attributes. How tall is the Father? What color is his hair? Surely Jesus had these attributes.
 
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The Liturgist

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No, God doesn’t have gender.

Gender is a complex mix of biology and culture. It tends to refer either to something that is primarily biology or to a set of characteristics that are thought of as masculine or feminine because they tend on average to be more common for those genders.

I would argue that God has no biology, and that there are Biblical reasons to see in him the best characteristics typically associated with both genders. Both men and women are made in God’s image. In Christ there is no male or female.

Why is God portrayed as male? Of course he isn’t always. Wisdom (which is the basis for the Logos) is portrayed as a woman in Proverbs. But normally he is. I suspect that has to do with the culture out of which Israel arose. God and goddesses tended to have different characteristics, and the Lord was closer to the first.

But I don’t think we ought to push that tradition very far.

I think there needs to a limit to how we use the communication of attributes. How tall is the Father? What color is his hair? Surely Jesus had these attributes.

Firstly, communicatio idiomatum, where limits have been applied to it, and these limits are not universally recognized, is generally applied only in Christological contexts, so we can’t use it to discuss Patrology or Pneumatology except insofar as they are consubstantial with Christ, and also with us, via the hypostatic union, which deifies us to the extent of theosis (participation in the divine energies) but not apotheosis (participation in the divine essence by being made into God the Trinity. The essence/energies distinction is related to the next commonly held limitation on communicatio idiomatum, which is that it does not apply to the “nulas,” that is to say, logical problems arise if we use it to apply Divine immutability and invincibility to the human nature of Christ, or to apply mutability to the Divine essence, but these problems are not insurmountable.

Others go further and draw the line at the “omnis”, omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience; omnipresence is again logically challenging, and this challenge is confirmed by a seeming indication of locality in the hymnography of the Byzantine, Coptic, Syriac and Armenian rites, which of that translated seems to go into the most detail concerning the nature of the incarnation (whereas the Western Rite hymnographic tradition seems to reflect more on what this means for us, and the emotional response, as is demonstrated by these paraphrased Eastern Orthodox and Protestant lyrics from the evening service on Good Friday: “...Today He who is unbound and the creator of all is sealed in a tomb...” and “Were you there when they put him in the grace? Sometimes it makes me tremble, tremble, tremble...”

However including omnipotence and omniscience makes no sense from a Chalcedonian or Miaphysite standpoint and I am not convinced of a lack of divine omnipresence in the person of Christ.

Earlier in the conversation I reviewed and debunked the idea of the Patriarchal culture of Israel having an impact, and I lament to see this point raised.

I also, given the unknowability of the divine essence, would note that your statement “God has no gender” cannot be taken in an absolute sense, since you have no way of knowing; your specific example of Proverbs as an instance of the energies of God being genderless presupposes we accept your interpretation of it, which I feel is intriguing but inaccurate, an attempt at Alexandrian metaphorical exegesis but one that ignores typographical and metaphorical aspects, or else, you applied Antiochene literal-historical context to one of the two books of Holy Scripture where that approach is least edifying (the other being the Song of Solomon).

I will instead propose that a more Alexandrian interpretation is that the esoteric meaning of the Song of Solomon is what some Greek Fathers and saints actually called an erotic love (devoid however of lust or concupiscience) between the Church and its Savior, and in Proverbs, the feminity of Wisdom is a typological prophecy that Wisdom would be carried by a woman, literally, the Blessed Virgin Mary, who bears Wisdom and is the means of the incarnation of Wisdom and who in my belief and those of many Christians mystically leads the choir of saints as she intercedes on our behalf to our divine Intercessor.

But thank you for as ever an interesting and challenging reply, and I really would like to have a deep dive with you along the themes of the undiscovered Calvin, or Calvin vs. Calvinism, if that interests you, and I sincerely hope it does.

God bless you!
 
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The Liturgist

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By the way @PloverWing while inadequete compared to The Orthodox Way, these three catechtical blog posts I wrote might at least serve to put us on the same page, and are considerably shorter. If you can grasp these you should be able to understand my initial concept and then accept or reject it on its own terms, and if you can’t grasp them, I beyond any doubt made some humiliating error in composing them. Which is not an inherently bad thing, for the error can be corrected and the humiliation will preserve my humility:

A Supplementary Catechism For Forum Members

I am at times attracted to the vocation of a fool for Christ, like St. Basil, not St. Basil the Great of Caesarea, but St. Basil whom the splendid cathedral on the Red Square in Moscow is named for, enduring intentional humiliation as a means of theosis. It is an ascetic path most documented in the East, but I think some Western court jesters may have been fools for Christ privately, and I know someone at Disneyland who when he performs exhibits attributes of this vocation, and is extremely devout in his Christianity.
 
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SkyWriting

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This thread is branching off from a discussion that I was having with @The Liturgist about whether it is meaningful to speak of God having gender.

Jesus said Father. I assume the Father of Jesus had no hormone problems like all men do.
But "Father" was Jesus choice, so that must be the best approximation.
 
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PloverWing

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If you can find the autobiographical videos he did for the Coptic Youth Channel, which are on YouTube, those describe his experience with the Virgin Mary most clearly, and you might grasp my point.

I listened to one of his videos this morning (
) in which he describes a grotto that he made to honor the Virgin Mary, and why it is so important to him as a place of devotion. One quote from the video stood out to me, at about 2:00 in the video:

I've always believed, since I first came to Christianity, to Orthodoxy, to monk life, I've always understood that the place, and the icons, and the holy utensils of the mass, the things of Christianity are very important. The relics of the saints, why do we have relics of saints, just bones, you know, you can get bones from anywhere, what about sheep's bones or horse's bones or whatever. Why the bones of the saints are important? Because they are impregnated with spirituality. They are impregnated with holiness. Holiness is a power which can enter into material objects. This is a longstanding article of faith in Orthodoxy, from the beginning, from Christ's sanctification of his body and his cross.

I largely agree with Fr. Lazarus on this, and I thought he described it very well.

I don't know if this is the kind of thing you have in mind when you ascribe gender to God, but I could see that it might be.

Thank you for pointing me to your catechism posts; I enjoyed reading them. I'm afraid I still can't draw the connection between those posts and God's gender, so you may have to make it more explicit for me. I do see that devotion to the Virgin Mary is important to you, as it is to Fr. Lazarus also. Interestingly, meditating on the Annunciation was the theme I took for my devotional life this past Advent, so Mary has been in the front of my mind lately. But my views of motherhood and womanhood and Mary's agency tend to be different from what I often see in other people's devotional descriptions of Mary, and that may be a barrier to our mutual understanding. In any case, the gender of Mary is not in dispute. We need somehow to make a connection between this and the original question, whether God has gender.
 
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The Liturgist

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I listened to one of his videos this morning (
) in which he describes a grotto that he made to honor the Virgin Mary, and why it is so important to him as a place of devotion. One quote from the video stood out to me, at about 2:00 in the video:



I largely agree with Fr. Lazarus on this, and I thought he described it very well.

I don't know if this is the kind of thing you have in mind when you ascribe gender to God, but I could see that it might be.

Thank you for pointing me to your catechism posts; I enjoyed reading them. I'm afraid I still can't draw the connection between those posts and God's gender, so you may have to make it more explicit for me. I do see that devotion to the Virgin Mary is important to you, as it is to Fr. Lazarus also. Interestingly, meditating on the Annunciation was the theme I took for my devotional life this past Advent, so Mary has been in the front of my mind lately. But my views of motherhood and womanhood and Mary's agency tend to be different from what I often see in other people's devotional descriptions of Mary, and that may be a barrier to our mutual understanding. In any case, the gender of Mary is not in dispute. We need somehow to make a connection between this and the original question, whether God has gender.

All of what you say, including your remarks on the impregnation of objects with holiness, I agree with; the specific words Fr. Lazarus uses also recall and represent I believe a real spiritual and teleological reflection of the Incarnation, which is an event so momentus that it reverberates through creation. So, I think it is, as I said originally, relational. God is masculine because we, represented and interceded for by our mothers and the mother of God herself, the blessed Virgin Mary, the holiest of humans born from sexual intercourse, are feminine. And these properties carry over into the human experience, in that humans and animals, male and female, both have female and male characteristics, but a primary identity, and while I reject platonic idealism, one could say these identities reflect the divine image and most specifically the relationship. So there is not a masculine Form that defines Godhood, but a masculine relationship, of fatherhood between the father and the son, and God and us.

Another aspect to explore is the constant scriptural metaphor for the sowing of seeds, which in antiquity was associated with the male reproductive act. Our seed is planted by God, but it is up to us to bear fruit.

This sexual division between male deity and female humanity, the perfection of the Theotokos, and so forth, is consistently reflected in scripture and Holy Tradition we can cite cases where humanity is referred to in feminine terms and God in masculine terms, whereas the maternal functions of God are only ever referred to by way of analogy, unless we accept the argument, which I do not accept, that Wisdom in Proverbs is literally supposed to refer to Christ in the feminine; I think it is a prophecy of the incarnation, in which the Theotokos is conveying the Wisdom of Christ within her to men in the world before His incarnation, related to Isaiah. So again, relational, as opposed to taking a vulgar carnal view that God is a man because women are subhumanoids created as an afterthought, based on a vulgar and debased interpretation of Genesis 2 that sadly many fundamentalists actually believe. Usually the same ones who scream “idolatry!” when seeing the veneration of an icon of the blessed Virgin Mary.
 
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SkyWriting

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I listened to one of his videos this morning (
) in which he describes a grotto that he made to honor the Virgin Mary, and why it is so important to him as a place of devotion. One quote from the video stood out to me, at about 2:00 in the video:



I largely agree with Fr. Lazarus on this, and I thought he described it very well.

I don't know if this is the kind of thing you have in mind when you ascribe gender to God, but I could see that it might be.

Thank you for pointing me to your catechism posts; I enjoyed reading them. I'm afraid I still can't draw the connection between those posts and God's gender, so you may have to make it more explicit for me. I do see that devotion to the Virgin Mary is important to you, as it is to Fr. Lazarus also. Interestingly, meditating on the Annunciation was the theme I took for my devotional life this past Advent, so Mary has been in the front of my mind lately. But my views of motherhood and womanhood and Mary's agency tend to be different from what I often see in other people's devotional descriptions of Mary, and that may be a barrier to our mutual understanding. In any case, the gender of Mary is not in dispute. We need somehow to make a connection between this and the original question, whether God has gender.

There are crazy people in this world. Like this guy.
Ya gotta luv em though. There, but by the Grace of God....
 
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PloverWing

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@The Liturgist : I think I'm hearing in your latest post some analogies:

The holy : The created :: Masculine : Feminine
Seed : Earth :: Masculine : Feminine
Deity : Humanity :: Masculine : Feminine

I'm really not trying to misrepresent you, so please correct me if I've misunderstood, but this seems to be what's in post #38.

God is, of course, on the side of the holy, the seed, and deity, so these analogies would place God on the side of masculinity. And this does help give meaning to God being "masculine". But I don't accept any of these three analogies.
 
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