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The funniest question: "how soon do you think it will be before monkeys become humans, *again*?"

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by Gottservant, Oct 26, 2021.

  1. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    Hi there,

    So this is hilarious right:
    The only way to say this is rubbish, is to say "the selection pressures aren't there any more", but the problem is, we never knew what the selection pressures were to begin with.

    I mean there is no experimental evidence that something that happened once, needs specific conditions before it can function, in the environment in which it already does.

    Realistically, humans coming from apes a second time should be easier!

    What do you think: should I post this, or should I wait for better inspiration (inspiration, you have?)?
     
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  2. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Interesting question. Never really thought of that before, but it seems to make sense! I certainly don't know why it wouldn't happen, even if Darwinian concepts and principles apply. Primates of many kinds are surviving just fine!

    But maybe it is happening; witness our representatives in Washington!
     
  3. Isaiah 41:10

    Isaiah 41:10 Well-Known Member

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    If we selectively bred great apes, I could see them becoming an advanced species much like our own within 500,000 years.

    In nature though, I think it's more likely that great apes would go extinct due to habitat destruction. Most are already endangered and we destroy their habitats for shampoo and toilet paper. We have already rendered dozens of other megafauna extinct, including even advanced species like neanderthals. Even now there are more tigers in captivity than there are in the wild. So it's much more likely that great apes would simply go extinct in the next hundred years or so.
     
  4. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    I prefer the magic mushrooms theory.
     
  5. SilverBear

    SilverBear Well-Known Member

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    What is hilarious is your lack of a basic understanding of human ancestry. Well maybe its more sad than funny
     
  6. Lost4words

    Lost4words Jesus I Trust In You Supporter

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    We didnt come from apes.

    We were created in God's image.
     
  7. Torah Keeper

    Torah Keeper Member

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    I think scientists tried to do this by training apes to be as human as possible, even trying to mate people with apes. I think it was a Soviet project. But it failed. Stalin was trying to make an apeman army.

    The genetic divide between men and animals is just too great to bridge. We are a totally different life form compared to animals. Saying apes are our relatives is like saying a rubber ball is related to the moon because it is round. Nonsense.

    Man was made in the image of God
     
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  8. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    This has inspired me to suppose, that maybe Evolution within the context of a specific species, is not wrong.

    So for example a human may be taller or stronger, but not taller to the extent that he can no longer be strong.

    This allows for micro-Evolution, even great micro-Evolution, or macro-degeneration (deflation of a species in favour of a specific adaptation), but not leaps from micro to macro evolution.

    Micro becomes great, macro degenerates - these are immutable pressures on the genome of specific species.
     
  9. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    I see my mistake now!

    I should have been asking for a number of dates - how many times will apes turn in to men, from now on!
     
  10. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Since there are no longer any hominins except us, and apes are too evolved in their own way to give rise to humans, seems rather unlikely to happen again. Apparently, back when there were many species of bipedal apes. there were a number of species of our genus having evolved even to making and using tools. But no longer. You might as well ask when an ostrich was going to evolve into a velociraptor.
     
  11. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    You have the science to back this up? What evidence is there that even better might not come through apes? The right mutation is enough, right?
     
  12. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Yep. Chimps are much more specialized than the Miocene ancestors of humans and other apes:

    “Living ape species are specialized species, relicts of a much larger group of now extinct apes. When we consider all evidence—that is, both living and fossil apes and hominins—it is clear that a human evolutionary story based on the few ape species currently alive is missing much of the bigger picture,” said study co-author Ashley Hammond, an assistant curator in the Museum’s Division of Anthropology.

    Dryopithecus was an anthropoid ape, but not as evolved as modern apes. Looks a little like a simplified gorilla, but more human-like in many respects. On the other hand, Sahelanthropus was a hominin, but not as evolved as anatomically modern humans. Looks like a simplified human, but more ape-like in many respects. Both hominins and other apes diverged from each other over time.

    "Better" is not applicable to evolution. Apes are massively stronger than humans thanks to the myostatin gene we have. They are much, much better at climbing than we are. They actually have some mental skills that are better than ours.

    A particularly cunning seven-year-old chimp named Ayumu has bested university students at a game of memory. He and two other young chimps recalled the placement of numbers flashed onto a computer screen faster and more accurately than humans.

    It's a very simple fact: chimpanzees are better than us at this task, says Tetsuro Matsuzawa, a primatologist at Kyoto University in Japan who led the study.
    Chimp beats students at computer game - Nature


    Turns out, a brain highly competent at memory is more selective for chimps than it is for humans. So in some ways "better" is already present in apes, relative to us.


    There's lots more. Ape hands are very useful compared to the forepaws of other animals, but they are specialized for grasping in a hook grip, and not as effective at a power grasp, pinch grip, or three-point chuck. Their thumbs are lower and relatively weaker than ours, and they lack a specific muscle that allows precise manipulation.

     
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  13. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Well-Known Member

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    Many a true word spoken in jest. :sorry:
     
  14. Acts29

    Acts29 Member

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    By far, the most compelling evidence for the theory of evolution is the people that believe it. IMHO.
     
  15. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    The fact that it's observed to go on every day around us. I'm thinking you probably don't know what the definition of biological evolution is. What do you think it is?

    "People are usually down on things they aren't up on."
    Everette Dirkson
     
  16. Acts29

    Acts29 Member

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    I said the "theory of evolution," not the compromised "biological evolution." Any theory that involves human beings coming from any other prior species. Not about adaptation such as a sun tan or altitude acclamation, but species evolving to other species as Darwin suggested.

    Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

    A little condescending and smug.
     
  17. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Perhaps you don't know what the "theory of evolution is." Can you tell us the four points of Darwinian theory? Would you be surprised to know that Wallace, the co-founder of the theory, did not believe humans evolved from other animals?

    "People are usually down on things they aren't up on."
    Everette Dirkson

    Accurate. For example, you declined to tell us what the scientific definition of biological evolution is. I'm pretty sure I know why.

    Let's see if you know what Darwinian theory says.
     
  18. Acts29

    Acts29 Member

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    Would a vocabulary test or defining worldly theories really appease you? No chance. If I were to lay bare all of the flaws of evolution to you it would fall on deaf ears because you trust the world far more than God. Worldly theories always include moving goal posts, by design. Just as you've done here.
    Believe what you want. We'll see who was right in the end.
     
  19. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Some indication that you actually know something about the subject you're presuming to tell us about, would help, yes.

    For that, you'd have to know what it is. And it seems very unlikely that you do, since you've repeatedly declined to tell us what you think it is.

    You'd rather just take man's doctrine of creationism as true, because you trust the world far more than God.

    Creationist doctrines always include moving goal posts, by design. Just as you've done here.

    We will. Fortunately for you, it's not a salvation issue. God doesn't care whether you approve of evolution or not, unless you make an idol of your new doctrines and insist that Christians must now believe it.
     
  20. Acts29

    Acts29 Member

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    It should be abundantly clear by now that I have no interest in debating about evolution. Your mind is made up, as is mine. What then would be the point?

    "I know you are, but what am I?" Is this elementary school?

    Salvation is by faith. Not believing God is not faith. Anyone can say they believe in Christ, but words alone are worthless. God knows the hearts of all men and those who truly believe Him. Many Christians say they believe, but then reject the very first page of scripture. How much unbelief does it take to be an unbeliever? What is the cutoff point? I have no intention of finding out.
     
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