The Freewill Paradox

[jeolmstead]

The Freewill Paradox

As I said in my earlier in another post I think God, being eternal, sets outside of time and space. He is the Alpha and Omega. I believe that God looks at creation as a whole start to finish. From His vantage point all things have played out and yet each thing in His creation exits and “lives” in it’s own time and space. Since God can see from this vantage point He knows what I’m going to do (as in pre-destination) without controlling what I’m going to do (so I have free will)

Grasping this concept shines new light on these concepts:

Christ was slain from the foundation of the world

God “knew” Jeremiah before he was formed

Not to mention Ezekiel’s “Wheel within a wheel”

I believe that this can also help us to understand the resurrection of the dead. Since God is not bound by time and space he can reach into his creation at any point. Meaning, God can reach into his creation a thousand years ago and raise up a person. If my understanding is true God could raise up all mankind from all points of time in history at the same moment.

I believe that God can be moved upon through prayer and intercession to reach into His creation and change things according to His desire to do so. In the same sense that a Painter can go back and add to or change his composition.

I do not think that these beliefs violate the word and that they in some ways help me to understand it. But, I realize these beliefs in these matters are not scripture.

It occurs to me that if this is true it bridges the gap between traditional Calvinism and the freewill argument. As in a sense both are true

I am sincerely interested in what others might thing as I realize this is pretty deep stuff.

John O.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

There's a book called "The upside down Kingdom" by Donald B. Kraybill, Herald Press, that deals with all of the parodoxes introduced by Jesus.
Acts 17:6-7
"who have turned the world upside down...acting against the decrees of Ceasar, saying there is another king, Jesus."

 

[ChristianMuse]

The Freewill Paradox

As I said in my earlier in another post I think God, being eternal, sets outside of time and space. He is the Alpha and Omega. I believe that God looks at creation as a whole start to finish. From His vantage point all things have played out and yet each thing in His creation exits and “lives” in it’s own time and space. Since God can see from this vantage point He knows what I’m going to do (as in pre-destination) without controlling what I’m going to do (so I have free will)

Grasping this concept shines new light on these concepts:

Christ was slain from the foundation of the world

God “knew” Jeremiah before he was formed

Not to mention Ezekiel’s “Wheel within a wheel”

I believe that this can also help us to understand the resurrection of the dead. Since God is not bound by time and space he can reach into his creation at any point. Meaning, God can reach into his creation a thousand years ago and raise up a person. If my understanding is true God could raise up all mankind from all points of time in history at the same moment.

I believe that God can be moved upon through prayer and intercession to reach into His creation and change things according to His desire to do so. In the same sense that a Painter can go back and add to or change his composition.

I do not think that these beliefs violate the word and that they in some ways help me to understand it. But, I realize these beliefs in these matters are not scripture.

It occurs to me that if this is true it bridges the gap between traditional Calvinism and the freewill argument. As in a sense both are true

I am sincerely interested in what others might thing as I realize this is pretty deep stuff.

John O.

That you believe God is outside of time and space is relevent to understanding the creation. For myself I firmly believe that all creation: begining, middle and end, were all created at the same moment(?)... there's that time thing again... or of one cloth. Every thought and every contingency has already been laid down. That God enters this creation to run with the story is truly amazing. Yet outside of the creation God knows all and is never surprised.

Freewill is always excercised...
God's response ordained...

Time is like water, we see it as a liquid and God sees it as ice. Unless, of course, he decides to go for a swim as Jesus or move as the Spirit. Yet outside of time/space it just plain IS!

 

[victoryword]

People are getting into the issue of God being outside of time, exhaustive definite foreknowledge, and all that stuff that. The "Eternal Now" concept of God has much difficulty being proven from Scripture and the few passages that are used to attempt to make a theological case for it are easily refuted. However, I won't spend a lot of time on that since the discussion is forbidden on this forum anyway (and I try not to be a rule breaker).

I dealt with this to as limited extent some time ago on the WoF forum. You can read some of my posts in this link for some of my perspective:
http://www.christianforums.com/t2398966-how-can-god-have-faith-if-he-is-in-the-eternal-now.html&page=1&highlight=eternal+now

 

[BenAdam]

People are getting into the issue of God being outside of time, exhaustive definite foreknowledge, and all that stuff that. The "Eternal Now" concept of God has much difficulty being proven from Scripture and the few passages that are used to attempt to make a theological case for it are easily refuted. However, I won't spend a lot of time on that since the discussion is forbidden on this forum anyway (and I try not to be a rule breaker).

I dealt with this to as limited extent some time ago on the WoF forum. You can read some of my posts in this link for some of my perspective:
http://www.christianforums.com/t2398966-how-can-god-have-faith-if-he-is-in-the-eternal-now.html&page=1&highlight=eternal+now

Why is it forbidden VW?

 

[victoryword]

Why is it forbidden VW?

It falls under the category of "Open Theism" which is not considered to be an orthodox belief, even though it can be supported by way more scripture than Cal or Arm and in my opinion is much more consistent than both (though I admit that it has its flaws as well, but not anywhere as many as Cal).

 

[JimB]

I agree with you. For the sake of discussion, it is as though God, who dwells in Eternity, created time. IMO, time is the first thing He created. The Bible says so – “In the beginning.”

Then He looked ahead in time and saw all the decision we would make (He “foreknew”), good and bad, regarding Jesus or death, and He said “so be it” (He predestined” it).

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, Romans 8.29.
​

This, to my mind, reconciles predestination with freewill. God allowed us the choice, looked ahead and foreknew our choices and predestined it to be so.

How’s that?

Sincerely,
~Stella Learnin

 

[BenAdam]

It falls under the category of "Open Theism" which is not considered to be an orthodox belief, even though it can be supported by way more scripture than Cal or Arm and in my opinion is much more consistent than both (though I admit that it has its flaws as well, but not anywhere as many as Cal).

ah I think we have talked about it before. What is Open Theism and can we even talk about it here?

 

[jeolmstead]

Thanks VW

Is my OP breaking some rule?

 

[JimB]

ah I think we have talked about it before. What is Open Theism and can we even talk about it here?

Personally, I do not see why not. There are Charismatics who believe in Open Theism. But that would be the subject of another thread, wouldn't it?

Sincerely,
~Stella Learnin

 

[BenAdam]

Personally, I do not see why not. There are Charismatics who believe in Open Theism. But that would be the subject of another thread, wouldn't it?

Sincerely,
~Stella Learnin

Forum rules is all. Must play by the rules ya know.

 

[victoryword]

Thanks VW

Is my OP breaking some rule?

You aren't, but I would be if I discussed my views.

Jim M, "In the beginning" does not equal "God created time" and neither does the phrase support the rest of your statement

"In the beginng" from the Hebrew simply means "in the dateless past."

 

[jeolmstead]

I looked up Open Theism, I do not think my OP as stated would fall under that catagory (As I understand) Since my OP refutes it

Am I wrong?

 

[JimB]

Forum rules is all. Must play by the rules ya know.

What rule would it violate? (Sorry, I haven’t checked).

Sincerely,
~Stella Learnin

 

[JimB]

*****

"In the beginng" from the Hebrew simply means "in the dateless past."

*****

Not being able to read Hebrew, I didn’t know that.

Sincerely,
~Stella Learnin

 

[victoryword]

I looked up Open Theism, I do not think my OP as stated would fall under that catagory (As I understand) Since my OP refutes it

Am I wrong?

YOU aren't violating any rules, but I would be if I debated you from my viewpoint. However, Calvinists and Arminians pretty much agree that God is outside of time and has exhaustive foreknowledge, therefore, I am not sure how much further this debate could go without an Open Theist presenting an alternate perspective.

 

[SteelDisciple]

The only thing I really want to say on the subject when it comes to freewill and pre-destination is that there is a significant between KNOWING what is going to happen to all of His creations...and having direct control over there.

If God had direct control over us all...if he made our choices for us long before we were born, then there isn't any need for us to make any decisions. Why tell us to repent if He already PLANNED for us to repent or not.

And that brings up another point...why bother to work in some peoples lives if God already "pre-destined" them to go to hell?

The whole logic surrounding pre-destination has so many holes and contridictions I just don't see how anyone who thinks about it even for a second could agree with it.

 

[victoryword]

Not being able to read Hebrew, I didn’t know that.

Sincerely,
~Stella Learnin

Neither can I, but that is what I am told. However, I like to sound authoritative as if I could speak Greek and Hebrew fluently.

But I do know a few Japanese, Korean, and Spanish phrases.

And this is starting to get off topic so sorry

 

[jeolmstead]

You aren't, but I would be if I discussed my views.

Jim M, "In the beginning" does not equal "God created time" and neither does the phrase support the rest of your statement

"In the beginng" from the Hebrew simply means "in the dateless past."

Could one not interpret “In the dateless past” as “before there was time”?

If not, Then how would you define that?

John O.

 

[victoryword]

The only thing I really want to say on the subject when it comes to freewill and pre-destination is that there is a significant between KNOWING what is going to happen to all of His creations...and having direct control over there.

If God had direct control over us all...if he made our choices for us long before we were born, then there isn't any need for us to make any decisions. Why tell us to repent if He already PLANNED for us to repent or not.

And that brings up another point...why bother to work in some peoples lives if God already "pre-destined" them to go to hell?

The whole logic surrounding pre-destination has so many holes and contridictions I just don't see how anyone who thinks about it even for a second could agree with it.

Now this is ARMINIAN logic that I fully agree with