The Fossil Record Proves Speciation, Not Evolution of Lifeforms Observed

Shemjaza

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Very good. So you understand the definition of life can be reasonably argued. However, even we can use different processes to define a system as a life, but there is, indeed, a fundamental function which every forms of life should have: it is a cyclic process. This is very important. For example, we can NOT identify a single such process in the rock system, so that rock is not proper to be called a life system.

If a system-critical process of a system does not operate in cycles, then this system should not be called a life. If it does, then it could become a candidate of a "life" system.

Not finished yet, but do you agree so far? Since we are talking about a general, universal principle, so ANY exception should be considered.
Why do the internal processes in the ordinary definitions of life get broadened into any process of division or generation... but cyclic processes do not?

That cycle of river and lake produce sedimentary rocks and the cycle of mantle and magma produce igneous rocks.

I think cycle is much more appropriate as a description of rock formation then reproduction and respiration.

(Edit, I thought I should make it clear that I still think your assertion that the definition of life can be easily expanded to the clearly not living is illogical and useless).
 
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juvenissun

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Why do the internal processes in the ordinary definitions of life get broadened into any process of division or generation... but cyclic processes do not?

That cycle of river and lake produce sedimentary rocks and the cycle of mantle and magma produce igneous rocks.

I think cycle is much more appropriate as a description of rock formation then reproduction and respiration.

(Edit, I thought I should make it clear that I still think your assertion that the definition of life can be easily expanded to the clearly not living is illogical and useless).

No. There are many cyclic processes we can identify. But very rarely, any one of them is "critical" to the identity of the system and makes the system to be called a life.

For example, the water cycle, the rock cycle or the CO2 cycle. However, if the cyclic process does not exist, water is still water, rock is still rock and air is still air. So water is not a life because it is still a water even a cyclic process does not operate in water.

So, if we discovered an object (a system) on a planet, we should first check if there is a critical cyclic process going on in the object which caused the existence of the object. If not, then it is not a life.

Based on that, it would be easy to identify that the earth, which contains many cyclic processes, but is still NOT a life. And, a biological cell may not be (?) a life either (is there a critical cyclic process going on in one single biological cell, so that without it, a cell will no longer be a cell?)
 
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PsychoSarah

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* A rock is commonly changed by its internal forces.
Name how rocks change themselves, without including ANY outside contributing force. Not the wind, not water, etc. Because even cells deprived of nutrients do not cease to change before dying.

* The old rock is usually consumed or partially consumed when changed to a new rock.
There is no consumption, pieces break off and never become part of the new rock sure, but two rocks melding together because of OUTSIDE PRESSURE ENACTED ON THEM are not consuming each other. Furthermore, "consumption in reproduction" is not a qualifier to be alive; bacteria don't consume themselves when they replicate, that wouldn't even make sense. And an ovum merging with a sperm for fertilization would be the biggest stretch of the word "consume" that I have ever heard. You have a weird fixation on this quality you like to push that is in no way relevant.

What really perplexes me is that you go this far with analogies to try to argue that rocks are alive, and yet earlier you claimed plants WEREN'T alive. What the heck do you think rocks do that plants don't that makes them more alive in your mind?


* A rock responds to outside stimulation actively and sometimes, quickly.
Breaking because of an outside force is not the same as reacting to outside stimulation. A cell being crushed isn't mediating a response to the force, it is simply being annihilated. A living organism can change in response to a stimulus without said stimulus directly instigating the change, such as hormones triggering the cell to respond by dividing. The hormones don't divide the cell, the cell mediates the division. There are no cases in which rocks break or meld together that is a result of the rocks themselves mediating it. Outside heat and pressure cause it.

Comment: how would you even tell the difference between a "living" and "dead" rock? With actually living cells, their internal processes cease, but since rocks don't have any, how would you tell the difference?

* And a rock DOES pass on its "genetic" information to offsprings. (so the "ancestors" of a rock could be identified.
Negatory. Being able to identify the location a rock comes from is not the same as being able to tell any great details about the rocks they came from aside from composition. Heck, rocks don't even necessarily come from other rocks; limestone forms as a result of debris from deadorganisms piling up. It doesn't grow as a crystal or anything like that.

WHY should a silicon-based life function like a carbon-based life?
You are likely internally thinking I mean with DNA, etc., when that is not what I mean. Living cells, by definition, have certain traits I know conventional rocks cannot have. Thus, I know that even an alien that looks outwardly like a rock CANNOT be internally composed identically to, say, a piece of granite. I am not saying that life on other planets has to be physiologically all that similar to life on Earth. I am saying that it CAN'T be indistinguishable from a typical, non-living rock.

You are still young. Don't let your brain be frozen to what the earth has. That is why a life-evaluating space team needs not only biologists, but also geologists.
So says the creationist that thinks rocks are alive and plants aren't and cannot be convinced otherwise despite recognizing that he isn't debating on a topic he has any expertise in -_-.
 
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Shemjaza

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No. There are many cyclic processes we can identify. But very rarely, any one of them is "critical" to the identity of the system and makes the system to be called a life.

For example, the water cycle, the rock cycle or the CO2 cycle. However, if the cyclic process does not exist, water is still water, rock is still rock and air is still air. So water is not a life because it is still a water even a cyclic process does not operate in water.

So, if we discovered an object (a system) on a planet, we should first check if there is a critical cyclic process going on in the object which caused the existence of the object. If not, then it is not a life.

Based on that, it would be easy to identify that the earth, which contains many cyclic processes, but is still NOT a life. And, a biological cell may not be (?) a life either (is there a critical cyclic process going on in one single biological cell, so that without it, a cell will no longer be a cell?)
That seems silly.

What's the point? And your definitions of critical versus nearly containing cyclic process seem ad hoc at best.
 
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juvenissun

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That seems silly.

What's the point? And your definitions of critical versus nearly containing cyclic process seem ad hoc at best.

If you think it is silly, then there is no point to explain the point further.
 
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juvenissun

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Name how rocks change themselves, without including ANY outside contributing force. Not the wind, not water, etc. Because even cells deprived of nutrients do not cease to change before dying.

Minimum condition: Changes caused by internal difference on chemical potential between mineral components. Normally, the ambient temperature is an important factor. This change caused the rock to grow from immature to mature stage.
 
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juvenissun

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There is no consumption, pieces break off and never become part of the new rock sure, but two rocks melding together because of OUTSIDE PRESSURE ENACTED ON THEM are not consuming each other. Furthermore, "consumption in reproduction" is not a qualifier to be alive; bacteria don't consume themselves when they replicate, that wouldn't even make sense. And an ovum merging with a sperm for fertilization would be the biggest stretch of the word "consume" that I have ever heard. You have a weird fixation on this quality you like to push that is in no way relevant.

What we can see is:

Fetus material of rock takes a long incubation time to give the birth of a new rock. Then this rock will pass a very long period of time to grow up and gradually changed to its mature form and old form. This is part of the life cycle of rock.
 
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Shemjaza

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If you think it is silly, then there is no point to explain the point further.
You have created a strange hard to define definition of life. I said it seems silly because there doesn't seem to be any use for it.

What is the advantage? And how do you draw distinctions and borders of cyclic processes.
Minimum condition: Changes caused by internal difference on chemical potential between mineral components. Normally, the ambient temperature is an important factor. This change caused the rock to grow from immature to mature stage.
How do you define a mature vs immature rock?

Weathering?
Decomposition?
How does it work for the fundamentally different sources of rock?
 
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Kylie

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Yes. Because they are not able to do it.
This would lead to another mistake they made. That is the bottom line.
Your question is much better than anyone which has been asked.

It is obvious to anyone with even the remotest grasp of science that rocks are not alive.
 
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Kylie

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This one (not good) falls into a trap which is set by a narrow definition of life.
It was good enough (even 100 years ago). But is no longer now.

Fine. If you insist.

Define life for me please, so that we have a clear understanding of what is being spoken of.
 
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juvenissun

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You have created a strange hard to define definition of life. I said it seems silly because there doesn't seem to be any use for it.

What is the advantage? And how do you draw distinctions and borders of cyclic processes.

Of course there is use. I will not spend time on useless idea. The use of review and renew the definition of life is to understand the origin of life, and to illustrate that the Bible gives the best scientific definition of life. A side effect is to help Buddhists on one of the fundamental problem which they can not answer. Buddhism is fundamentally bogged down by the definition of life.
 
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juvenissun

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Fine. If you insist.

Define life for me please, so that we have a clear understanding of what is being spoken of.

No use. If you strongly "believe" that rock is not alive, then you obviously won't agree with me on my definition of life.
 
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juvenissun

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Please define "cyclic process". I'd say this is not true, but interested to hear what your definition is.

I am not trying to entertain you.
Go to see a science fiction movie.
 
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juvenissun

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How do you define a mature vs immature rock?

Weathering?
Decomposition?
How does it work for the fundamentally different sources of rock?

A rock material passes through a time line of changes. At the beginning, it is the birth. At the end it is the death. In the middle it is in the process of maturation and aging. In every distinct stages, the rock looks different.

Just like a biological life.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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I am not trying to entertain you.
Go to see a science fiction movie.
Let me guess - I'm a bad student because I can't ascertain your definition of a cyclic process, right?
A rock material passes through a time line of changes. At the beginning, it is the birth. At the end it is the death. In the middle it is in the process of maturation and aging. In every distinct stages, the rock looks different.

Just like a biological life.
There is nothing cyclic in that process.
 
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Kylie

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No use. If you strongly "believe" that rock is not alive, then you obviously won't agree with me on my definition of life.

Don't weasel out of it. If you want to convince me that rocks are alive, show me what your definition of life is first.
 
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juvenissun

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Let me guess - I'm a bad student because I can't ascertain your definition of a cyclic process, right?

There is nothing cyclic in that process.

You are reading. Good.
What I said is only 3/4 of a cycle.
 
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juvenissun

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Don't weasel out of it. If you want to convince me that rocks are alive, show me what your definition of life is first.

I can't convince you if you rely on me to tell you things.
Shemjaza is asking questions. If you do the same, you might be able to convince yourself.
 
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