The Flood (2)

[AV1611VET]

But, it actually feels like you have too. It's like being an outcast when you believe in evolution. You never quite fit in.

Thank you for responding

That's [probably] because as a geologist, you're working directly with God's creation, which currently is hostile to Him. (I'm just guessing here - I'm lousy at giving advice.) Anyway, just do the best you can with how you've been trained, and let God handle the rest.

 

[Molal]

That's [probably] because as a geologist, you're working directly with God's creation, which currently is hostile to Him. (I'm just guessing here - I'm lousy at giving advice.) Anyway, just do the best you can with how you've been trained, and let God handle the rest.

Thank you AV.

I always wondered how Ken Miller dealt with his situation. But it is considerably easier for him since the Catholic church acknowledges evolution. He doesn't have to face absurd criticism while sitting in a bible lesson.

 

[NailsII]

This is where I am in my walk. Thank you Contra for summing so eloquently my personal feelings.

But where do I go from here?

I am a scientist, but I am also a christian. Cognitive dissonance at its best............and it's really distressing.

Why, it's the word I use most at church and I never get a real answer. Follow your heart, read the bible............are those answers?

OK, really naive statement coming:
What is wrong with asking 'why?'. I do it all the time, my mum says I was about 2 when it started.
I don't see how you cannot be a christian just because you are a scientist.
Ken Miller manages just fine.

 

[Molal]

OK, really naive statement coming:
What is wrong with asking 'why?'. I do it all the time, my mum says I was about 2 when it started.
I don't see how you cannot be a christian just because you are a scientist.
Ken Miller manages just fine.

I know, my mom said the same thing - everything was why and I never settled until I got an answer that made sense.

It is amazingly difficult to be a scientist in a restoration church movement - infact it is almost impossible. The restoration movement is very fundamental in it's views. Unfortunately, 99 out of 100 times you ask why, the person/church is just not knowledgeable enough to answer, if they answer then they do not understand the question or they are unable to grasp the scientific concept behind a question. Frequently, fundamental beliefs just go against the summation of geologic knowledge.

It's a constant battle. And then you have to deal with it at family gatherings. It's never ending, constant tug-of-war. For instance, the issue of global warming comes up and someone asks about the data. I, of course, go on a discussion about 400,000 year old ice core data only to have a response like - you don't believe that? What about the bible?

And this is coming from your family - people you love and don't want to fight with.

So, a long answer to a short question. 'Why' is a question frequently asked and seldomly answered.

EDIT: Does that make sense? It really does feel like a wedge being driven between science and the church.

 

[AV1611VET]

It's a constant battle. And then you have to deal with it at family gatherings.

If I was at a family gathering, and I asked a question about global warming (actually we make fun of it), and the person I asked started on about 400,000 year old ice core data, etc. I would just sit and listen, and then say something like, "Okay, thanks; just wondering."

On the other hand, if I was a geologist, and at a family gathering, and someone asked me about global warming - I would make fun of it.

 

[Contracelsus]

This is where I am in my walk. Thank you Contra for summing so eloquently my personal feelings.

But where do I go from here?

I am a scientist, but I am also a christian. Cognitive dissonance at its best............and it's really distressing.

Why, it's the word I use most at church and I never get a real answer. Follow your heart, read the bible............are those answers?

I've met lots of scientists who are Christians as well. They don't have a problem with it. I didn't end up being that.

But seek out those people. Don't get all your info from one side or the other. There's lots of people who can help you thread this needle.

I always like debating religion NOT with a goal of getting anyone to follow me in my path. I value intellectual debate on religion and there's a great history of that sort of thing in the Catholic Church. There's a strong history of intellectual debate on faith in the Church.

I hope that your path leads you to a destination that works for you. But don't just listen to just one side. You're a scientist and an investigator.

 

[Molal]

If I was at a family gathering, and I asked a question about global warming (actually we make fun of it), and the person I asked started on about 400,000 year old ice core data, etc. I would just sit and listen, and then say something like, "Okay, thanks; just wondering."

On the other hand, if I was a geologist, and at a family gathering, and someone asked me about global warming - I would make fun of it.

That made me laugh out loud. EDIT: I appreciate your response AV.

I do know that the earth is warming. The question (which has really been answered) is is it completely attributable to human activity, partially, or is it completely natural (cyclical).

 

[Contracelsus]

If I was at a family gathering, and I asked a question about global warming (actually we make fun of it), and the person I asked started on about 400,000 year old ice core data, etc. I would just sit and listen, and then say something like, "Okay, thanks; just wondering."

On the other hand, if I was a geologist, and at a family gathering, and someone asked me about global warming - I would make fun of it.

You deserve the world you will wind up with.

Hope you like it!

 

[Molal]

I've met lots of scientists who are Christians as well. They don't have a problem with it. I didn't end up being that.

But seek out those people. Don't get all your info from one side or the other. There's lots of people who can help you thread this needle.

I always like debating religion NOT with a goal of getting anyone to follow me in my path. I value intellectual debate on religion and there's a great history of that sort of thing in the Catholic Church. There's a strong history of intellectual debate on faith in the Church.

I hope that your path leads you to a destination that works for you. But don't just listen to just one side. You're a scientist and an investigator.

Again, thank you Contra. I am not sure where my search will take me. Obviously (you can see based on my previous posts) I am a scientist and I am inquisitive and don't like wishy washy answers.

 

[Inan3]

So why did he create Darwin?
Dawkins?
Einstein?

Not that I feel I can be named in such a list, but why was I created without the ability to believe?
Why must I question everything? (damn, there I go again)

BTW, can I offer a distinction here - scientists rarely create things (or even invent). The three eminant gentleman I mentioned earlier all discovered something, things right under our noses. And then they made sense of it.

The same reason He created ALL things, for His pleasure. Please do not think that scientists are the only ones who ask why. There's a whole world out there of people who question things. I question things and people all the time both secular and christian. I don't know any child that doesn't ask "why". You are no different than anyone else. You have chosen what you have chosen. You have the ability to believe. You believe in evolution. You just chose not to believe in God. You chose evolution over God. I chose God over evolution. I question evolution. I ask this question. Where did it all come from? I wonder why you don't ask that question. I wonder why you believe that there was a Big Bang and every thing that has an order or system came from chaos. I question these things all the time.

 

[Contracelsus]

Again, thank you Contra. I am not sure where my search will take me. Obviously (you can see based on my previous posts) I am a scientist and I am inquisitive and don't like wishy washy answers.

Good luck with your search.

Like I said seek out those scientists who are also religious and see what they can teach you. I've got a friend back east who is a christian and a crackerjack scientist. He posts on here.

 

[Molal]

Good luck with your search.

Like I said seek out those scientists who are also religious and see what they can teach you. I've got a friend back east who is a christian and a crackerjack scientist. He posts on here.

It would be good to speak with him. I suppose it's something that one has to live with.

At least it makes church fun and family gatherings quite..............heated.

 

[Inan3]

When you type out that you think the Muslim is not free nor is seeing truth, does it interest you that the Muslim sees you as exactly the opposing side?

What is the fruit of Islam and what is the fruit of Christianity? That says it all.

 

[Contracelsus]

What is the fruit of Islam and what is the fruit of Christianity? That says it all.

I don't think you are tracking on what I'm saying here.

Whatever fruits you see of Christianity the Muslim sees from Islam.

Do you honestly think that Muslims are miserable as muslims?

That is what I"m saying. The good things you see from Christ are the same blessings the Muslim sees from Al'lah through his prophet Mohammed.

 

[Inan3]

I know, my mom said the same thing - everything was why and I never settled until I got an answer that made sense.

It is amazingly difficult to be a scientist in a restoration church movement - infact it is almost impossible. The restoration movement is very fundamental in it's views. Unfortunately, 99 out of 100 times you ask why, the person/church is just not knowledgeable enough to answer, if they answer then they do not understand the question or they are unable to grasp the scientific concept behind a question. Frequently, fundamental beliefs just go against the summation of geologic knowledge.

It's a constant battle. And then you have to deal with it at family gatherings. It's never ending, constant tug-of-war. For instance, the issue of global warming comes up and someone asks about the data. I, of course, go on a discussion about 400,000 year old ice core data only to have a response like - you don't believe that? What about the bible?

And this is coming from your family - people you love and don't want to fight with.

So, a long answer to a short question. 'Why' is a question frequently asked and seldomly answered.

EDIT: Does that make sense? It really does feel like a wedge being driven between science and the church.

Well, all I can say Molal, is what do you put first in your life. If the Lord is first in your life you should be looking to Him for peace in this matter certainly not atheistic scientists. If you have made Christ the Lord your life look unto Him. If you haven't, then you are not really a christian. A Christian will put Him first. You can't have one foot in faith and the other in unbelief. You can't serve two masters. Choose you this day whom you will serve.

There is a wedge between evolution and the church when they say that the scriptures are not literal. When they say that God lied. You need to decide which side you are on. No ones against you. You just need to figure out where you stand on the scriptures. The scriptures say that all things were made by Him and without Him nothing was made.

 

[Inan3]

I don't think you are tracking on what I'm saying here.

Whatever fruits you see of Christianity the Muslim sees from Islam.

Do you honestly think that Muslims are miserable as muslims?

That is what I"m saying. The good things you see from Christ are the same blessings the Muslim sees from Al'lah through his prophet Mohammed.

Contra, I'm "tracking" onto what you are saying. I just don't see it like you do and you don't seem to understand that.

Yes, I think the Muslims are under a hard religion. The are not happy but they don't know anything else. There is no comparison between Christ and Al'lah. Christ died to set them free from their sins and Al'lah did not. There is no comparison. Theirs is a religion of works. Christianity is a walk of faith. Just believe and receive. No comparison.

 

[Molal]

Well, all I can say Molal, is what do you put first in your life. If the Lord is first in your life you should be looking to Him for peace in this matter certainly not atheistic scientists. If you have made Christ the Lord your life look unto Him. If you haven't, then you are not really a christian. A Christian will put Him first. You can't have one foot in faith and the other in unbelief. You can't serve two masters. Choose you this day whom you will serve.

There is a wedge between evolution and the church when they say that the scriptures are not literal. When they say that God lied. You need to decide which side you are on. No ones against you. You just need to figure out where you stand on the scriptures. The scriptures say that all things were made by Him and without Him nothing was made.

Well, how does one respond to that? Thank you for your reply, I appreciate your willingness to help. But I find it condescending. Which underlines what I was trying to portray on this board.

It seems you carry a fallacy by equating biblical literality with inerrancy.

 

[Nathan Poe]

You are no different than anyone else. You have chosen what you have chosen. You have the ability to believe. You believe in evolution. You just chose not to believe in God. You chose evolution over God. I chose God over evolution. I question evolution. I ask this question. Where did it all come from? I wonder why you don't ask that question. I wonder why you believe that there was a Big Bang and every thing that has an order or system came from chaos. I question these things all the time.

So do we, Inan -- science wouldn't be science without constant questioning. Evolution has thus far stood up to the challenge. Perhaps one day it'll fail, but it'll be a scientist asking questions who brings it down.

Myself, I questioned God long before I questioned evolution -- and God came up short on answers.

What did you hear when you questioned God?

 

[Inan3]

Well, how does one respond to that? Thank you for your reply, I appreciate your willingness to help. But I find it condescending. Which underlines what I was trying to portray on this board.

It seems you carry a fallacy by equating biblical literality with inerrancy.

I'll tell you how I would respond to that. I would say Jesus Christ IS Lord of my life and I would lay down my life for Him. I would give up all for Him. If that means standing up against those who would contradict His Word I would do it. There are plenty of scientists that don't believe in evolution. Why not talk with them. I would if I was convinced that Jesus was Lord and that He would never lie and that His Word was FINAL authority.

I am not being condescending. I'm talking to you straight up. Christianity requires a choice. It's not for the wavering. He that wavereth is like a wave tossed too and fro, let not that man think he shall receive anything from God. I'm just trying to get you to make a decision on where you are. As long as you are questioning everyone will seem condescending to you. Are you on the Lord's side or not? Just trying to provoke you to make the decision. Only you can do it. Think about it.

Are you saying that when the scripture says He created all things that that is fallacy?

 

[Molal]

I'll tell you how I would respond to that. I would say Jesus Christ IS Lord of my life and I would lay down my life for Him. I would give up all for Him. If that means standing up against those who would contradict His Word I would do it. There are plenty of scientists that don't believe in evolution. Why not talk with them. I would if I was convinced that Jesus was Lord and that He would never lie and that His Word was FINAL authority.

I am not being condescending. I'm talking to you straight up. Christianity requires a choice. It's not for the wavering. He that wavereth is like a wave tossed too and fro, let not that man think he shall receive anything from God. I'm just trying to get you to make a decision on where you are. As long as you are questioning everyone will seem condescending to you. Are you on the Lord's side or not? Just trying to provoke you to make the decision. Only you can do it. Think about it.

Are you saying that when the scripture says He created all things that that is fallacy?

When He said He created all things is true. It is theologically true; however, the genesis account does not need to be taken literally to be theologically true. Infact, the same theological truths exist in either interpretation. An allegorical interpretation actually normalizes the observed creation (earth, universe) to the scriptures. It is the literal interpretation that creates dissonance between creation and biblical account.

If you think I am wrong, then show me why a literal interpretation of genesis is correct and describe why the earth exhibits age and history.