The Flood (2)

[AV1611VET]

The Bible, the Qu'ran, the Writings of the Bahá'u'lláh... ACCEPT NO IMITATIONS OF THE WORD OF GOD! THE TORAH IS THE ONE TRUTH!

Then do what it says.

[bible]Luke 24:27[/bible]

 

[Inan3]

Wherever you live hopefully has television? Books? Maybe some awareness of the OUTSIDE WORLD?

I love reading your posts as if John 14:6 meant ANYTHING to a Hindu. Or meant anything to any of the billions of people who lived elsewhere on the globe.

You seem to think that a few phrases from a holy book that is holy to YOU and YOUR friends is obviously meaningful to EVERYONE EVERYWHERE.

Have you ever been anywhere outside of a 15 mile radius of your home? Did you talk to anyone who thought differently from you at any time while you were there?

Did you respect that maybe they were as sure of their worldview as you were of yours?

Did you learn anything from interaction with someone else?

That's kind of an offensive line of questions isn't it? I'm sure AV knows everything you have intimidated that he doesn't. The fact of the matter is that the Word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than ANY two edged sword. We speak the Word and the Holy Spirit is the power behind it. If YOU understood anything about Christianity, which by the way is ALL over the world, you would know that that's how we live. We speak the Word of God. There may be many who reject it but there will be those who accept it. It is the Holy Spirit that makes it real to the hearts of those who do. Regardless of whether people accept it or reject it, they will be judged by what they do with it. Rather than complaining or criticizing you should be "respectful" because as Christians we are giving you what we deem to be the highest and best gift we could give you. What you do with it after is your own choice.

 

[Inan3]

I have never reported anyone on a debate board.

Good man! I tried to do that when I first came on but it seemed I was getting reported everytime I turn around so I started reporting, also. (I don't think I reported you, though) I used to think it was kind of ridiculous but I think it makes us more accountable. So maybe it's a good thing.

 

[Inan3]

Glad to see you're finally seeing sense.

The Bible, the Qu'ran, the Writings of the Bahá'u'lláh... ACCEPT NO IMITATIONS OF THE WORD OF GOD! THE TORAH IS THE ONE TRUTH!

Do you believe that?

 

[Contracelsus]

That's kind of an offensive line of questions isn't it? I'm sure AV knows everything you have intimidated that he doesn't.

Then why do you think he answers with references only to the Bible? He seems to be acting as if the verse he quoted from John was somehow meaningful in a discussion about the variety of religions in the world. As if Christianity was inherently more rational than any other religion and it's patently obvious just when you see the bible say Jesus is the son of God! QED!

The fact of the matter is that the Word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than ANY two edged sword.

FOR YOU. Not for everyone. Just as if a Hindu came on here and spouted something really meaningful to THEM from the Bhagavad Gita. It would have almost no value to you I suspect. It certainly wouldn't convince you that Hinduism is the propery religion!

We speak the Word and the Holy Spirit is the power behind it. If YOU understood anything about Christianity, which by the way is ALL over the world, you would know that that's how we live.

That isn't what I'm saying at all. (And actually I do understand something about Christianity, just, again, not the same way you do. But you probably don't understand that your version of Christianity may not be the only one, and I'm really sure you probably would never assume you could be wrong about God).

My point is that debating the virtues or vices of the huge variety of religions it is not impressive to quote a verse from the Bible as some sort of defacto proof that the Bible is right and the others questionable.

We speak the Word of God.

As you understand it.

There may be many who reject it but there will be those who accept it.

YOUR version of it. Yes.

 

[Contracelsus]

As the commercial goes: "Accept no imitations."

Like your "digitally remastered First Edition KJV"?

 

[Inan3]

Nice, but I always thought it was in spite of christianity.....

Nope. God is the greatest of all Scientists. After all He created it all!

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Then do what it says.

[bible]Luke 24:27[/bible]

Do you believe that?

Ah, the barrier between US and British humour. I take it you guys haven't heard of satire? I use it to get my point across. AV said "Don't accept imitations", and I was simply pointing out that the NT, the Qu'ran, etc, are all just imitations and extensions of the Torah: the original Abrahamic text.

Personally, I find the poetry in the Torah to far surpass the literary beauty of any text that follows (though they have their individual charm).

 

[Inan3]

Then why do you think he answers with references only to the Bible? He seems to be acting as if the verse he quoted from John was somehow meaningful in a discussion about the variety of religions in the world. As if Christianity was inherently more rational than any other religion and it's patently obvious just when you see the bible say Jesus is the son of God! QED!

FOR YOU. Not for everyone. Just as if a Hindu came on here and spouted something really meaningful to THEM from the Bhagavad Gita. It would have almost no value to you I suspect. It certainly wouldn't convince you that Hinduism is the propery religion!

That isn't what I'm saying at all. (And actually I do understand something about Christianity, just, again, not the same way you do. But you probably don't understand that your version of Christianity may not be the only one, and I'm really sure you probably would never assume you could be wrong about God).

My point is that debating the virtues or vices of the huge variety of religions it is not impressive to quote a verse from the Bible as some sort of defacto proof that the Bible is right and the others questionable.

As you understand it.

YOUR version of it. Yes.

My point is....As Christians we believe that we are to interject the Word of God where ever we go, whatever we do, and whenever we can. That is part of our faith. For us NOT to do that is remiss on our parts. We DO believe that we have the only TRUTH so we act on it. If we didn't we would have a wimpy faith. For "TRUE" Christians to not use the Word of God is like a scientist not usling data. You wouldn't be much of either if you didn't use your source. When we give you it reveals what we believe and who we are. We don't just give it to you as a point to argue with. We give it to you the same way we give it to ourselves. We use the Word of God as a plumbline and line everyone and everything up to it including ourselves. We live, eat and breathe the Word of God.

Perhaps, when you read it, if you can't take it for it's spiritual value at least use it to get to know us. That is what I do with the information I receive from those I don't agree with.

 

[Contracelsus]

My point is....As Christians we believe that we are to interject the Word of God where ever we go, whatever we do, and whenever we can. That is part of our faith. For us NOT to do that is remiss on our parts.

still I don't think you are getting my point. Obiviously you believe in your version of God. But why would you think that version would be compelling to any of the adherents to any other version of God or gods? There are many?

If you were debating a muslim would think that quoting the bible in regards to Jesus divinity would prove your point to the muslim?

We DO believe that we have the only TRUTH so we act on it. If we didn't we would have a wimpy faith. For "TRUE" Christians to not use the Word of God is like a scientist not usling data.

I don't know how much more clearly I can reiterate my point, so I won't.

You wouldn't be much of either if you didn't use your source. When we give you it reveals what we believe and who we are. We don't just give it to you as a point to argue with. We give it to you the same way we give it to ourselves. We use the Word of God as a plumbline and line everyone and everything up to it including ourselves. We live, eat and breathe the Word of God.

I guarantee you that if you walk out into the world you will meet people who think your plumb line is off by about 90degrees. No offense, I'm not saying one way is better than another, but the realization the world is much bigger than your little flock and the people who agree with you is to overlook the most fascinating aspect to the whole "god phenomenon".

Ultimate truth with a billion different faces that are only visible to a billion different viewers.

But to the truly faithful that concept is mortifying. It speaks more than you may like to hear.

Perhaps, when you read it, if you can't take it for it's spiritual value at least use it to get to know us.

I know you. I disagree with you. But further, since we are discussing AV1611VET's response to a world-religions type challenge, I think this mode of debate is irrational.

If I debate a conservative republican on gun control do you think for one second I'm going to rely solely on touchy-feely new-agey mushy-gushy points? If I did I can guarantee it will fly like a lead balloon.

Tis all I'm sayin'.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

Thread closed for staff cleanup.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

The thread has been reopened. I must, however, remind everyone of these rules:

Flaming, baiting, trolling, or feeding trolls is not allowed. This also applies to groups. In other words, play nice, don't hurt others, nor call them names.
If you think you are being flamed, choose *not* to be offended, but instead take a break, and communicate, rather than escalating or accusing others.

Failure to try to abide by these rules may result in the permanent closure of this thread.

Thanks,

Petrarch

 

[Inan3]

still I don't think you are getting my point. Obiviously you believe in your version of God. But why would you think that version would be compelling to any of the adherents to any other version of God or gods? There are many?

If you were debating a muslim would think that quoting the bible in regards to Jesus divinity would prove your point to the muslim?

I don't know how much more clearly I can reiterate my point, so I won't.

I guarantee you that if you walk out into the world you will meet people who think your plumb line is off by about 90degrees. No offense, I'm not saying one way is better than another, but the realization the world is much bigger than your little flock and the people who agree with you is to overlook the most fascinating aspect to the whole "god phenomenon".

Ultimate truth with a billion different faces that are only visible to a billion different viewers.

But to the truly faithful that concept is mortifying. It speaks more than you may like to hear.

I know you. I disagree with you. But further, since we are discussing AV1611VET's response to a world-religions type challenge, I think this mode of debate is irrational.

If I debate a conservative republican on gun control do you think for one second I'm going to rely solely on touchy-feely new-agey mushy-gushy points? If I did I can guarantee it will fly like a lead balloon.

Tis all I'm sayin'.

ContraC, I really, really do appreciate your taking the time to reiterate your point. I also, respect the tenor of your posts. They seem to be very sincere and honest. Thank you.

I think I do get your point. I think you are saying we have our beliefs but there are millions more who also have their belief and they believe it just as sincerely as we do so why would I think anyone would want to listen to our beliefs. Correct me if I am wrong.

I do think that maybe you misunderstand our intent. It's a matter of perception of why we interject scripture. I don't do so to "prove my point" as you said above. I do so because it is LIFE to those who find it. You see I don't believe the Word of God is merely words in a book. I believe they have substance. They are spirit and life. They have the power to create. They have the power to change lives. They have the power to raise the dead.

As to "debating" with Muslems or others, I certainly would give them the Word of God. I believe they need to be set free and it is the Word of God that can and will do that. There is enough power in it to open their eyes to the truth.

As to AV's use of the Word of God in regards to world-religion, if he believes what the scriptures say about it why not quote it? I guess I don't see the problem with that. I have often seen people quoting others that they agree with when they want to show what they believe. I don't find that to be a problem even though many others might disagree with those that they quote.

So that's my take on and again I do thank you for your responses.

 

[Contracelsus]

I do think that maybe you misunderstand our intent. It's a matter of perception of why we interject scripture.

Actually i was only responding to AV1611VET's comment of "Do they use John 14:6 to back it up" when responding to Nathan Poe's comment about other religions' assurity of Truth.

My point not being anything about posting bible quotes, but rather that AV1611VET apparently is immune to the irony of suggesting that John 14:6 backed anything up when debating about the differences between different religion's "Truth".

As to "debating" with Muslems or others, I certainly would give them the Word of God. I believe they need to be set free and it is the Word of God that can and will do that. There is enough power in it to open their eyes to the truth.

I find that kind of attitude fascinating (and you are not alone, obviously muslims feel very strongly that you are going straight to hell to be tormented pretty horrifically unless YOU open your eyes to their truth)

The problem I see is that neither you nor the Muslims can prove your truth is more Truthy than the other guys' Truth.

Obviously you are all supposed to believe your own press that YOU and you alone have Ultimate Truth! Otherwise it'd be pretty silly. But sadly neither side every learns that the very FACT that both of you think you have Ultimate Truth and the other is living a deception might give you pause?

That's my point.

When you type out that you think the Muslim is not free nor is seeing truth, does it interest you that the Muslim sees you as exactly the opposing side?

They feel and honestly believe EVERY SINGLE thing you say about them applies to you.

Does that ever give you pause?

As to AV's use of the Word of God in regards to world-religion, if he believes what the scriptures say about it why not quote it?

Sure, he can quote it all he likes. It means nothing in the context of that debate. Nothing. It makes his ability to appreciate the debate look pretty limited.

It's like me quoting Richard Dawkins to you in a debate on Christian Doctrine. How convinced would you be of any point I tried to make that way?

Geddit now?

 

[NailsII]

Nope. God is the greatest of all Scientists. After all He created it all!

So why did he create Darwin?
Dawkins?
Einstein?

Not that I feel I can be named in such a list, but why was I created without the ability to believe?
Why must I question everything? (damn, there I go again)

BTW, can I offer a distinction here - scientists rarely create things (or even invent). The three eminant gentleman I mentioned earlier all discovered something, things right under our noses. And then they made sense of it.

 

[Contracelsus]

BTW, can I offer a distinction here - scientists rarely create things (or even invent).

I bet your Intellectual Property department would like you to do more of that, though.

 

[NailsII]

I bet your Intellectual Property department would like you to do more of that, though.

Well, I have created a mess once or twice, occasionally made a profit on paper (probably ended up as a loss in the real world though.....)

 

[Molal]

Actually i was only responding to AV1611VET's comment of "Do they use John 14:6 to back it up" when responding to Nathan Poe's comment about other religions' assurity of Truth.

My point not being anything about posting bible quotes, but rather that AV1611VET apparently is immune to the irony of suggesting that John 14:6 backed anything up when debating about the differences between different religion's "Truth".





I find that kind of attitude fascinating (and you are not alone, obviously muslims feel very strongly that you are going straight to hell to be tormented pretty horrifically unless YOU open your eyes to their truth)

The problem I see is that neither you nor the Muslims can prove your truth is more Truthy than the other guys' Truth.

Obviously you are all supposed to believe your own press that YOU and you alone have Ultimate Truth! Otherwise it'd be pretty silly. But sadly neither side every learns that the very FACT that both of you think you have Ultimate Truth and the other is living a deception should maybe give you pause?

That's my point.

When you type out that you think the Muslim is not free nor is seeing truth, does it interest you that the Muslim sees you as exactly the opposing side?

They feel and honestly believe EVERY SINGLE thing you say about them applies to you.

Does that ever give you pause?



Sure, he can quote it all he likes. It means nothing in the context of that debate. Nothing. It makes his ability to appreciate the debate look pretty limited.

It's like me quoting Richard Dawkins to you in a debate on Christian Doctrine. How convinced would you be of any point I tried to make that way?

Geddit now?

This is where I am in my walk. Thank you Contra for summing so eloquently my personal feelings.

But where do I go from here?

I am a scientist, but I am also a christian. Cognitive dissonance at its best............and it's really distressing.

Why, it's the word I use most at church and I never get a real answer. Follow your heart, read the bible............are those answers?

 

[AV1611VET]

This is where I am in my walk. Thank you Contra for summing so eloquently my personal feelings.

But where do I go from here?

I am a scientist, but I am also a christian. Cognitive dissonance at its best............and it's really distressing.

Molal, we Christians hold science up to a higher Standard. This doesn't mean we do anything different from what anyone else does, it just means we hold it up to a higher Standard.

Becoming a Christian doesn't mean you have to give up your clipboard.

 

[Molal]

Molal, we Christians hold science up to a higher Standard. This doesn't mean we do anything different from what anyone else does, it just means we hold it up to a higher Standard.

Becoming a Christian doesn't mean you have to give up your clipboard.

But, it actually feels like you have too. It's like being an outcast when you believe in evolution. You never quite fit in.

Thank you for responding