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Job 33:6

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You believe that God is commanding the Israelites not to make thing that are in the underworld, and bow to them or worship them?
Why would you think that?
Why would God not refer to what the Israelites could physically see, such as fish, and so, but refer to what no one could physically see, or even know about?
Has someone returned from this so called underworld, and reported what they saw?
What do you mean?

Exodus 20:4 NASB1995
[4] “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Let's read this together. You shall not make for yourself an idol (a thing of worship) of what is in heaven, earth, or under the earth.

And what does the next verse say?

Exodus 20:5 NASB1995
[5] You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

It's God telling the Israelites not to make idols of other gods.

They just came out of Egypt where there were countless pagan gods that people were worshipping. And God is saying "I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God" and "You shall not worship *them*"

It's Yahwey saying not to worship pagan deities.

And look at the verses before this one:

Exodus 20:2-3 NASB1995
[2] “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. [3] “You shall have no other gods before Me.

In Hebrew it says that the Israelites are to have no other elohim. That's "god". That's the Hebrew word used for spirit beings such as demons and angels.
 
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CoreyD

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When Exodus 20:4-5 says "under the earth" that is literally what it means. It means, below your feet.

Not, out in the ocean among the fish. @CoreyD

And yes, Jonah did sink down to sheol. That's literally what the Hebrew says. But if you read chapter 2, he explicitly describes sinking to the roots of the mountains to the land where the bars closed over him. The underworld.

Again described in watery terms. As is common in the old testament.

You're not accepting what the Bible plainly says. When it says that the waters are beneath the earth, or when it describes idols beneath the earth, that's what it actually means. It's not talking about distant oceans or something like that.
No, I am not accepting your interpretation of what the Bible says, but yes, I am accepting what the Bible says, in more places than one, actually.
The Bible says this:
Job 34:14, 15 - If He were to set His heart to it and withdraw His Spirit and breath, all flesh would perish together and mankind would return to the dust.
Psalm 104:29 - When You hide Your face, they are terrified; when You take away their breath, they die and return to dust.
Psalm 146:4 - When his spirit departs, he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish.
Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20 - For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other - they all have the same breath. Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile. All go to one place; all come from dust, and all return to dust.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 - before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

The underworld ideas has no place in scripture.
The underworld, also known as the netherworld or hell, is the supernatural world of the dead in various religious traditions and myths, located below the world of the living.
The descent to the underworld has been described as "the single most important myth for Modernist authors"
See the list of underworlds in various religious traditions, with links to corresponding articles... By religion

Lots of people believe in these myths, and if you are one of these persons, that's fine.
So, back to the subject - the firmament.

You said you do not believe in the flat earth, but rather a spherical earth.
What is this belief based on, and how did we get to this long debate, if you do not believe in a flat earth?
 
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CoreyD

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What do you mean?

Exodus 20:4 NASB1995
[4] “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Let's read this together. You shall not make for yourself an idol (a thing of worship) of what is in heaven, earth, or under the earth.

And what does the next verse say?

Exodus 20:5 NASB1995
[5] You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
It's God telling the Israelites not to make idols of other gods.
I read not to make an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath.
I did not read "make idols of other gods".

Any carved image can be considered a god, but there are no gods. They are called gods.
Where did you read "not to make idols of other gods"?

They just came out of Egypt where there were countless pagan gods that people were worshipping. And God is saying "I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God" and "You shall not worship *them*"

It's Yahwey saying not to worship pagan deities.
No. I did not read that, and I do not see how you arrived at that.

And look at the verses before this one:

Exodus 20:2-3 NASB1995
[2] “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. [3] “You shall have no other gods before Me.

In Hebrew it says that the Israelites are to have no other elohim. That's "god". That's the Hebrew word used for spirit beings such as demons and angels.
It's the carved image "becomes" a god, or is viewed as such.
that's what God is forbidding. There are no other gods, either to God, or his people.

You did not answer my question though.
 
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Job 33:6

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You believe that God is commanding the Israelites not to make thing that are in the underworld, and bow to them or worship them?
Why would you think that?
Why would God not refer to what the Israelites could physically see, such as fish, and so, but refer to what no one could physically see, or even know about?
Has someone returned from this so called underworld, and reported what they saw?
It's saying not to make idols of things that are in the underworld.

God is saying this, because this is a common thing that people did back then. They worshipped other gods.
 
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CoreyD

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"
Job 17:13, 14 reads...
13 “If I hope [ - qavah: To wait, to look for, to hope, to expect] for Sheol as my home, I make my bed in the darkness;
14 If I call to the grave, ‘You are my father’; To the maggot, ‘my mother and my sister’;

The early writers of the Hebrew scriptures, understood Sheol to be the grave.
While the Hebrew Bible appears to describe Sheol as the permanent place of the dead, in the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BCE – 70 CE) a more diverse set of ideas developed.

Also, see Hebrew Bible.

Interpretation
Even within the realm of Jewish thought, the understanding of Sheol was often inconsistent. This would later manifest, in part, with the Sadducee–Pharisee ideological rift which, among other things, disagreed on whether relevancy should lie more prominently in the world of living or in the realm of an afterlife. The lack of a clear belief structure surrounding Sheol lends the idea to a number of interpretations: namely, one which imagines Sheol as a concrete state of afterlife, or one which envisions Sheol as a metaphor for death as a whole. To the latter's end, certain editions of the Bible translate the term Sheol as generic terms such as "grave" or "pit" (KJV, NIV, etc.), while others (NAB, NASB, etc.) preserve it as a proper noun. Distinguishing Sheol between a realm and a metaphor is the crux of several unanswered questions surrounding its nature.

Perhaps owing to the evolution of its interpretation, certain elements of Sheol as described in the Hebrew Bible appear contradictory.

The origins of the concept of Sheol are debated. The general characteristics of an afterlife such as Sheol were not unique to the ancient Israelites; the Babylonians had a similar underworld called Aralu, and the Greeks had one known as Hades. As such, it is assumed that the early Israelites apparently believed that the graves of family, or tribe, all united into one, collectively unified "grave", and that this is what the Biblical Hebrew term Sheol refers to: the common grave of humans."

@CoreyD

I agree with all of the above that you have shared. In fact, that's precisely what the video that I've shared with you has stated. But none of the above changes the fact that sheol is oftentimes described in watery terms, and that in ancient cosmology, it was viewed as an underworld in which dead spirits dwelled. And this is just a fact of scripture. It's very plainly stated, as noted above. If you would like more passages on Sheol, feel free to ask.

"The general characteristics of an afterlife such as Sheol were not unique to the ancient Israelites; the Babylonians had a similar underworld called Aralu, and the Greeks had one known as Hades. "

And regarding this statement, as I am sure you well know, Hades is the world of the dead. It is where spirits reside.
2 Peter 2:4 states, For God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hades and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgement.

As an example. So this just isn't up for debate. Sheol is an underworld, and in the Bible it is described as a place where spirits dwell. It is also described in several places in watery terms.

Isaiah 14:9 ESV
Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.

The rephaim are there, shades, people go down into it when they die, and sometimes people just fall into it when the earth opens up. Jonah sinks down to it. Samuel is down there, and then he is resurrected as a spirit and he comes up out of it. 1 Samuel 28.

It is an underworld. As your resource states.
These are your interpretation, and that is clear from the fact that, in an effort to support your beliefs, you used a scripture that has nothing to do with Sheol. The Greek word Tartarus, used at 2 Peter 2:4 is not Hades.
It's not referring to the equivalent of Sheol, which is the grave,

So, you have again demonstrated how you arrive at your interpretations, based on your belief.
I'm not continuing with this. There is no need.
The subject is the firmament.
 
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Job 33:6

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I read not to make an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath.
I did not read "make idols of other gods".
Exodus 20:4 NASB1995
[4] “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

It says "you shall not make yourself an idol"

What do you mean, "I did not read"makes idols of other gods"?

That's what idols are. That's what it says:

Exodus 20:3-5 NASB1995
[3] “You shall have no other gods before Me. [4] “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. [5] You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

"You shall have no other gods before me".

"You shall not worship them or serve them". Who do you think God is talking about here?

The passage says it quite plainly, "other gods".
Any carved image can be considered a god, but there are no gods. They are called gods.
Where did you read "not to make idols of other gods"?
It's saying carved images of other gods. Like the golden calf.

That's what idols are.

Are you new to the Bible?
No. I did not read that, and I do not see how you arrived at that.


It's the carved image "becomes" a god, or is viewed as such.
that's what God is forbidding. There are no other gods, either to God, or his people.

You did not answer my question though.

The carved images are images of those gods. Like the golden calf.
 
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Job 33:6

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These are your interpretation, and that is clear from the fact that, in an effort to support your beliefs, you used a scripture that has nothing to do with Sheol. The Greek word Tartarus, used at 2 Peter 2:4 is not Hades.
It's not referring to the equivalent of Sheol, which is the grave,

So, you have again demonstrated how you arrive at your interpretations, based on your belief.
I'm not continuing with this. There is no need.
The subject is the firmament.
You shared in your own link, a reference to Hades. All I did was agree with what you shared. I know that sheol is not the same as Hades.

I didn't bring up Hades, you did.

Are you not reading your own links? I don't get it. You shared a information with me, and you suggest that it contradicts what I say, but then when I agree with it, all of a sudden you have a problem with me agreeing with what you said?

And some Bible translations do translate Tartarus as Hades. But regardless, from strongs:

In Greek mythology, Tartarus was considered the deepest part of the underworld, even lower than Hades, reserved for the most wicked beings. The concept of Tartarus was adopted in Jewish and Christian thought to describe a place of punishment for fallen angels and the wicked. This reflects the broader Greco-Roman understanding of the afterlife and divine retribution.

It doesn't matter. Be it Hades or Tartarus, these are places in which, in ancient Greece, they were described as containing evil spirits and demons and supernatural enemies of God.
 
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Job 33:6

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@CoreyD

This is what you yourself said:

"The origins of the concept of Sheol are debated. The general characteristics of an afterlife such as Sheol were not unique to the ancient Israelites; the Babylonians had a similar underworld called Aralu, and the Greeks had one known as Hades. "

Hades, in Greek mythology, is a place of spirits.

You even cited acts 2:31 yourself, if you want the specific Greek term:

Acts 2:31 NASB1995
[31] he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.

It's referring to the underworld. And in ancient Greece it was a place of the dead.
 
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Job 33:6

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It's not referring to the equivalent of Sheol, which is the grave,
Sheol is described in many places in the OT as more than just a grave.

Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.
Isaiah 14:9

Job 26:5-6 NASB1995
[5] “The departed spirits tremble Under the waters and their inhabitants. [6] Naked is Sheol before Him, And Abaddon has no covering.

For Sheol does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness
Isaiah 38:18

Therefore Sheol has enlarged its appetite and opened its mouth beyond measure, and the nobility of Jerusalem and her multitude will go down, her revelers and he who exults in her.
Isaiah 5:4

For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Deuteronomy 32:22

Where else would the rephaim, or spirit shades greet you where there is fire kindled by God's anger?
 
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Job 33:6

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@CoreyD

When Saul resurrected the spirit of Samuel, and Samuel was upset and said "who woke me up!"

Where exactly do you think Samuel came from?

11 1 Samuel 28:11, 15 NASB1995
[11] Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”
[15] Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.”


1 Samuel 2:6 NASB1995
[6] The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.
 
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I read not to make an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath.
I did not read "make idols of other gods".

Any carved image can be considered a god, but there are no gods. They are called gods.
Where did you read "not to make idols of other gods"?


No. I did not read that, and I do not see how you arrived at that.


It's the carved image "becomes" a god, or is viewed as such.
that's what God is forbidding. There are no other gods, either to God, or his people.

You did not answer my question though.
And no, the carved images does not merely become the god. Rather the god enters the carved image.

Like the ark of the covenant for example. Pagan deities dwell within idols.

God is forbidding the worship of actual other gods. He's not telling people merely not to worship other statues

The passage plainly states that people are not to worship, in Hebrew, elohim. And that's the Hebrew word used for demons, angels, undead spirits, disembodied souls etc.

God is saying, don't worship other gods. Not just statues.

And what question do you want me to answer? How can people worship things that they cannot see? Ask billions of people throughout history. People do it all the time. Especially in Egypt
 
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Job 33:6

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"Why would God not refer to what the Israelites could physically see, such as fish, and so, but refer to what no one could physically see, or even know about?"

Because nobody worships fish. But people do worship demons. Especially in ancient Egypt. That's what the whole challenge is for the Israelites. The Golden calf. It's not merely a statue. It represented a divine being. Baal.

The elohim in the old testament are real.

Not merely statues.

@CoreyD

Demons are not just statues in the old testament. They are real spirit beings. They walk around, they talk. They go places. They possess people. It's not just statues. And even if we might not see them, God can. People in the old testament consistently struggled with pagan worship. To them, these gods were real.
 
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CoreyD

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You shared in your own link, a reference to Hades. All I did was agree with what you shared. I know that sheol is not the same as Hades.

I didn't bring up Hades, you did.

Are you not reading your own links? I don't get it. You shared a information with me, and you suggest that it contradicts what I say, but then when I agree with it, all of a sudden you have a problem with me agreeing with what you said?

And some Bible translations do translate Tartarus as Hades. But regardless, from strongs:

In Greek mythology, Tartarus was considered the deepest part of the underworld, even lower than Hades, reserved for the most wicked beings. The concept of Tartarus was adopted in Jewish and Christian thought to describe a place of punishment for fallen angels and the wicked. This reflects the broader Greco-Roman understanding of the afterlife and divine retribution.

It doesn't matter. Be it Hades or Tartarus, these are places in which, in ancient Greece, they were described as containing evil spirits and demons and supernatural enemies of God.
Yes, it does matter.
What people believe, and how they choose to interpret things, matter, if they differ from what was actually believed by the Hebrew writers, and what is contained in scripture.
Later beliefs and interpretations do not alter the scriptures to become such interpretations.
One is false, and the other is true.

The belief that spirits of people live on, and are cast into Tartarus, contradicts the Bible's teaching that spirits - the angels that sinned, are the ones that are cast into Tartarus.
Both cannot be true.
However, this thread is not about Tartarus, Hades, or Sheol.
So, I won't get into debating that.

We already spent much time debating something for which I have no idea how we got there, when you do not believe in a flat earth, but a spherical earth.
I know you started with this - The waters wouldn't run off the firmament, because the firmament and all of creation is completely submerged, kind of like a submarine.The waters wouldn't run off the firmament, because the firmament and all of creation is completely submerged, kind of like a submarine., and you mentioned the "flood gates opening and closing to release the waters above", but that does not tell me what you believe about the firmament.

I just see this image popping up, but there is no firmament, and it doesn't really give me a clear model of your view.
 
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CoreyD

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"Why would God not refer to what the Israelites could physically see, such as fish, and so, but refer to what no one could physically see, or even know about?"

Because nobody worships fish. But people do worship demons. Especially in ancient Egypt. That's what the whole challenge is for the Israelites. The Golden calf. It's not merely a statue. It represented a divine being. Baal.

The elohim in the old testament are real.

Not merely statues.

@CoreyD

Demons are not just statues in the old testament. They are real spirit beings. They walk around, they talk. They go places. They possess people. It's not just statues. And even if we might not see them, God can. People in the old testament consistently struggled with pagan worship. To them, these gods were real.
You must not make a carved image of anything in the waters beneath the earth. Not you must not worship anything in the waters beneath.
It's not a matter of worshipping fish, but worshipping a carved image of a fish.
Something is wrong here. What's wrong with this picture?
 
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Job 33:6

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@CoreyD

Psalm 82:1-2, 6-7 ESV
[1] God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: [2] “How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
[6] I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; [7] nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince.”

Psalm 89:5-7 ESV
[5] Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord, your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones! [6] For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord, [7] a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones, and awesome above all who are around him?

1 Kings 22:19-23 ESV
[19] And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; [20] and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. [21] Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ [22] And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ [23] Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”

These spirit beings, they are throughout the old testament.

And ancient people struggled with the worship of them.

Especially in ancient Egypt.

And when Moses frees the Israelites, they still struggled with this. We can go through the Pentateuch together if you want examples. But the Israelites time and time again, fell to worship of other gods.

And God steps in with the commandments and instructs them not to do this. That's what the passage in Exodus is all about. It's not God telling people not to worship fish.

In Hebrew it explicitly says "elohim" which is the term used for spirit beings such as demons.
 
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You must not make a carved image of anything in the waters beneath the earth. Not you must not worship anything in the waters beneath.
It's not a matter of worshipping fish, but worshipping a carved image of a fish.
Something is wrong here. What's wrong with this picture?
People don't carve golden calves for the sake of worshipping golden calves. They carve golden calves because those statues are the dwelling places of their gods. It's about worshipping gods. Not statues.

Exodus 20:4 ESV
[4] “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

It's like saying, "don't worship any God's, in the highest of highs (heaven above), the earth below, and waters beneath the earth (the lowest of lows).

It's all encompassing.

God is saying, it doesn't matter where. All the way up, in the middle, or all the way down. No matter what level or floor of creation, you are not to worship any other elohim except me.
 
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Demons are not just statues in the old testament. They are real spirit beings. They walk around, they talk. They go places. They possess people. It's not just statues

I agree.

Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
 
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Yes, it does matter.
What people believe, and how they choose to interpret things, matter, if they differ from what was actually believed by the Hebrew writers, and what is contained in scripture.
Later beliefs and interpretations do not alter the scriptures to become such interpretations.
One is false, and the other is true.

The belief that spirits of people live on, and are cast into Tartarus, contradicts the Bible's teaching that spirits - the angels that sinned, are the ones that are cast into Tartarus.
Both cannot be true.
However, this thread is not about Tartarus, Hades, or Sheol.
So, I won't get into debating that.

We already spent much time debating something for which I have no idea how we got there, when you do not believe in a flat earth, but a spherical earth.
I know you started with this - The waters wouldn't run off the firmament, because the firmament and all of creation is completely submerged, kind of like a submarine.The waters wouldn't run off the firmament, because the firmament and all of creation is completely submerged, kind of like a submarine., and you mentioned the "flood gates opening and closing to release the waters above", but that does not tell me what you believe about the firmament.

I just see this image popping up, but there is no firmament, and it doesn't really give me a clear model of your view.
Fine. Sheol is a part of ancient cosmology. But I'm fine with going back to the firmament.

It's ancient cosmology. This isn't science. The firmament is described in solid terms in the Bible. It's just phenomenological language used to describe the sky. The passage about gates opening and closing and releasing and restraining water, it's just phenomenological language that describes concepts of a solid nature.

And yes, waters wouldn't run off of it, because the waters surround it in all directions, infinitely (except maybe upwards where God's kingdom ultimately is).

A submarine is a good analogy.the waters do not run off of the dome because the dome is in the midst of the waters, like in Genesis. It says that the firmament is in the midst of the waters. It is in the water like a bubble. Submerged.
 
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Job 33:6

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@CoreyD

Here is an artifact of the ancient near east that depicts a pagan deity above the firmament. It's known as the tablet of shamash. It's a fine reference point.

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Or you can consider the Babylonian map of the world, that we talked about before. It's surrounded by waters on all sides. Like a submarine.

Or the unfinished kuduru stone that we talked about before. Again, water above, water below. It's on all sides.

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Psalm 139:1, 8-10 ESV
[1] O Lord, you have searched me and known me!
[8] If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! [9] If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, [10] even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.

Up above and down below, but look here, the uttermost parts of the sea (north, south, east, and west).

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.

The water is above it.

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

It is below the earth (just like in Exodus).

The heavens are "spread out" and the earth is "spread out". There is water above, and water below.

And the firmament is described in solid terms and it restrains the waters (think about Exodus and how God restrains the red sea). It's like that.
 
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Job 33:6

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The easiest way to imagine the firmament, is to think of Moses crossing the red sea.

There is water. And the water is being held back. God is holding that water back, like a flood gate.

And in Noah's flood, God lets the water go. On the evils of the world.

And in Exodus, God lets the water go on pharaoh.

And Noah is delivered.

And Moses is delivered.

You see? And the cosmology is sort of like the earth, the whole earth, being protected by God's hand, against the waters.

That's kind of how it is in the old testament. And so the firmament is oftentimes describes like a solid wall. And it has water on the other side. Like a dome.

And the cosmology isn't perfect. Sometimes God is walking on the dome. It's not consistent. Indeed there are probably different ancient cosmologies within the old testament. But that's basically what it is. See my last post for some artifacts that depict it and verses that talk about where water is.
 
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