The Firmament

[Job 33:6]

Somehow, I must be miscommunicating, because I don't think you understand much of what I said.
So, perhaps I had better ask...

Is something communicated by word of mouth - orally, a means of giving and passing on knowledge?

Yes.

Did oral communication take place before any written record?

Yes.

Did God inspire man to prophesy, before the Bible - which is a collection of scripture, into little books?

Yes.

What is an author, and is an author necessarily a writer?

An author would be someone who writes. But also, it is the author's novel and unique, independent thoughts that are captured in the text.

Can God be the author of a written word, and how?

God can reveal truths to his prophets, who in turn, go and write down scripture. And they write what God has revealed to them, through their cultural lens, in their language.

Can you please answer those questions so that I know where we are as it relates to understanding?

Another good example of this is how, in the Old Testament, there is often a reference to one's kidney.

The psalmist, for example, says that it is his kidneys that lead him. Why are the kidneys referenced in the Old Testament in this way?

Psalms 26:2 NIV
[2] Test me, Lord, and try me, examine my [kidneys] and my mind;


The answer is that, much like the heart, kidneys were the seat of one's emotions, as thought of that way in their ancient culture.

It's not like God was trying to teach people something about the anatomy of kidneys.

Or, idioms. What if I said, "It's raining cats and dogs outside." That statement holds meaning to us today. But if I went back in time 3,000 years ago and said that, People might get confused and think that animals are falling out of the sky.

And the same thing happens in the Bible. The culture of the original authors is in the text. And they say things in their original context.

And if we aren't familiar with that original context, we might be confused about what it is. They're saying, and we might be the ones thinking that animals are falling out of the sky.

That's how cosmology is in the Bible. Genesis and Job are communicating from their cultural ideas that made sense to them at that time in history.

And we know this because other cultures such as the Egyptians, talked about the same things.

And that's how the Bible is. God inspired people. And people speak God's truth, with the use of their culture and language and context, etc.

God might reveal the truth that it was raining hard. And they in turn use language that they understand. Genesis, 7:11 and 8:2 describe Windows opening and closing in the sky to release the waters above.

If you read the text too literally, you might be confused, and you might take a telescope and look up into space. And you might look around for Windows up there somewhere in the sky.

But if you understand their culture, you know that it's just a normal understanding in history that The sky was commonly described in solid terms. Like an idiom. There is a cultural context in the text.

Genesis 7:11 NIV
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.

Genesis 8:2 NASB1995
[2] Also, the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;

Job 37:18 NIV
[18] can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?


And if you don't look closely, you might miss it.

And so when we think about things like cosmology, what we have are these passages in job and Genesis that are describing an ancient worldview. Where the earth is described kind of like a disc, and the sky is like a solid bowl that restrains the waters above, which is like a heavenly ocean that gives the sky it's blue color.

Amos 9:6 NASB1995
[6] The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

 

[Job 33:6]

@CoreyD

I'll share one more thing. Here is, In my opinion, one of the best academic papers on this particular topic of cosmology in the Old Testament.

https://thedivinecouncil.com/seelypt1.pdf

It's a collection of writings from various ancient cultures on the topic of the firmament. So that you can get a better understanding of how common it was to describe the sky in solid terms, in ancient times.

And this is part 1. But it can give a general idea of the subject.

 

[Job 33:6]

@CoreyD

I'll share one more thing. Here is, In my opinion, one of the best academic papers on this particular topic of cosmology in the Old Testament.

https://thedivinecouncil.com/seelypt1.pdf

It's a collection of writings from various ancient cultures on the topic of the firmament. So that you can get a better understanding of how common it was to describe the sky in solid terms, in ancient times.

And this is part 1. But it can give a general idea of the subject.

And I will say, this article offends many people. And there are softer tones to take on the matter.

Nobody, as far as I can tell, actually knows how many ancient Israelites held to ancient cosmology, versus how many simply used the language poetically or phenomenologically to describe things. Some people looked up and saw the blue sky, like an ocean. And maybe some actually did think that it was made of water, the waters above. But it's also possible that some looked up and just called it that, because it phenomenologically looks like water.

So it's not clear who all actually believes such concepts literally versus who was simply using common language of the time poetically or figuratively.

But either way you swing it, these concepts, be them understood literally or figuratively, still say what they say and describe what they describe.

 

[CoreyD]

Yes.

So, you agree that people worshipped gods, when they left God, and these gods are associated with demons - wicked angels.

Yes.

So, you agree that wicked angels mislead people into believing all sorts of things.

They would teach demonic things. Yes.

You agree that people who separate from God, teach godly things, or demonic, or satanic things. Good.

I don't follow the logic here. You can't call these concepts of cosmology "demonic" if they are also stated in Genesis.

Please show me "these concepts of cosmology" that you see stated in Genesis.

The cosmology described within Genesis, does not. Just like the Hebrew language does not. And that's what Genesis is written in.

Please explain what "cosmology described within Genesis" does not predate Egypt, and why you would say such.
While you do so, please tell us, are you saying that what is mentioned in the scriptures quoted in this post, does not predate Egypt? If so, please explain how that is possible.

Yes, God passed on knowledge before the writing of scripture. And people did too, yes.

So, you agree that God pass on knowledge prior to the recording of scripture, and people also passed on knowledge, prior to the recording of scripture.

In the very first verse of Chapter 5, of the book of Genesis, the writer, states:
These are the family records [ historical record / written account * ] of the descendants of Adam. On the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God;
* Usage: The term "toledoth" is used in the Hebrew Bible to denote genealogical records or accounts of a person's descendants. It often introduces sections of narrative that detail the lineage and history of key biblical figures. The word can also refer to the broader historical or narrative account of a family or group.

How was the record of Genesis 4:1-5:32 acquired?

No. I'm saying that, in terms of cosmology, these things, much like the Hebrew language, were a product of the culture of that time, and not of a proto Adamic or edenic time.

So, Genesis 1:1-11:32( ? ) was a product of the culture at the time of 16th century B.C.?
So, all the history written, including the events, the genealogical records, and the rise of nations, was a product of the culture at the time of 16th century B.C.?
This is what you believe?

Correct.

I say that, because the cosmology spoken of, is just a common aspect of ancient cultures. It isn't divine. It's just a normal phenomenological description of the cosmos that ancient peoples shared.

So, you do not believe Genesis was inspired of God. Is that correct?
How was it known that there was a garden of Eden that God planted, and there is where God placed the first man and woman? Was that a cultural story of the 16th century, in your view?

Authors would be the ones not only who wrote it, but their unique ideas or thoughts are also encompasses in the text. And I would say that Genesis is a combination. God shares theological revelation, but of course the human author and their culture is still in the text. Gods message passes through that human filter.

Thank you.
Who is the author of the words penned, in this situation?
Jeremiah 36:32
Then Jeremiah took another scroll and gave it to the scribe Baruch son of Neriah, and at Jeremiah’s dictation he wrote on it all the words of the scroll that Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire. And many similar words were added to them.

Or, in the case of this scenario.
You are secretary to the boss of a company, and he calls you to his office and dictated to you what he wants written in a letter. to someone.
Are you the author of that letter?

If the thoughts of the letter, are those of the boss, how are you the author?
If the scripture are the thoughts of God, and the men he used to pen those thoughts, wrote them down, as directed by him, how are the men, the authors of those words?
How can a mere man be the author of something that is beyond his knowledge, or comprehension?

Daniel 12:8-10
8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

2 Peter 1:21
For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Sure.

Thanks.

I'd say that is a crucial issue here. Because it sounds like you're saying that you don't need evidence to believe what you believe in. As if it's ok that you don't have evidence for your position.

What position is that, and what is it that I believe, which I have not already given evidence of?
Are you saying the scriptures are not evidence?

I'd say that this, it's actually a misunderstanding.

What you're actually reading in the Noah's flood story, is something more akin to polemic, and that some pagan stories, actually came first. And that's what the evidence we have, demonstrates. The Mesopotamian narrative is centuries older than Genesis for example, in writing, and in terms of oral traditions, the Israelites weren't even around back in the time of the ancient Mesopotamians and there is no evidence for the Genesis oral tradition that far back in time.

When did the flood of Noah's day occur, and when is the Mesopotamian flood myth claimed to have occurred?
When you compare the dates, which is earlier?

There's no evidence for what you're saying. As if Adam orally shared the story with Eve, and it passed down orally to Noah etc. this is, um, I'm sorry but that's, I would say, a misunderstanding of the circumstances.

There clearly is a misunderstanding, but not on my part.
What do you suppose Adam shared with Eve, and since Eve died before Adam, what could she have shared?
They could share what happened in the garden, and why they were kicked out.

Their children, Cain, and Seth, could tell of what they saw... etc.
Seth was Noah's grand daddy, so yes, Noah would have learned from the history recounted by his relatives.

However, no one needed to tell Noah about the flood.
He witnessed it, along with his three sons.
So, when we consider what the Bible tells us at Genesis 10:1-32, yes, the flood account was related to the generations, and it was related to the Pathrusim, whose descendants were Egyptians.

The many generations, indeed had descendants that passed on various flood myths.
How do we know? The very next words to follow Genesis 10:32, were...
Please read Genesis 11:1-32.

Yes, they were scattered, all over the earth, with different languages, from which different culture, false worship of various gods, came forth different flood legends.
That is the history.

The flood was prior to this.

I totally agree that demons and Satan can twist scripture and can twist the truth. But I would say that, that's not what we are dealing with here.

Why not?
Genesis 11:1-9, 27, 28
Who were the Chaldeans, and where did they come from?
What did they worship? Genesis 13:12, 13

They certainly did not worship God.
So, who and what did they worship?
You agreed

• that people worshipped gods, when they left God, and these gods are associated with demons - wicked angels.
• that wicked angels mislead people into believing all sorts of things.
• that people who separate from God, teach godly things, or demonic, or satanic things

Why do you say that we are not dealing with this, when we are talking about all the nations that were practicing things that God abhorred... all the nations that were a product of Shem, Ham, and Japheth, but who deviated from God at the tower of Babel?

Much like the Hebrew language, some things were just normal parts of the ancient culture. They weren't demonic or twisted. I mean, Genesis contains some of these same details, so it's not like these details of cosmology are paganistic or twisted.

Excuse me, please, but can you explain what you mean by "some things were just normal parts of the ancient culture", and what are "some of these same details".

And we can't call them false ideas if they are both in the Bible and in pagan texts. Because that would force us to say that the Bible contains false ideas.

What are you referring to exactly, that are "both in the Bible and in pagan texts"?

That's not the approach that I am taking.

I wasn't referring to what is in the Bible, but what people interpret, is in the Bible, so I think you need to be clear as to what you see in the Bible, that pagan believe.

 

[CoreyD]

@CoreyD

Rather than saying, that Egyptians were manipulated by demons and thus gave false accounts of creation.

That's not what I said.
Try to follow what I am saying.

Genesis 10:1-11:10

• Egyptians are descendants of Pathrusim.
• Pathrusim is a descendant of Mizraim.
• Mizraim is a son of Ham.
• Shortly after the birth Pathrusim, when the earth was one language... before Egyptians existed, the people engaged in building a ziggurat, to engage in false worship, and God scattered them.
• From there we get the various language groups - the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, the Jebusites (Genesis 15:19-21), who formed their own worship to various gods.

The people that worshipped other gods, were manipulated by demons, and out of these groups, came the Egyptians. Ezekiel 29:14
So, the Egyptians were born with false beliefs, worshipping different gods, and demons. Deuteronomy 32:17; Psalm 106:37

I went slowly, and step by step, so I hope you were able to follow, and it's clear now.

What I'm saying is that, Egyptian accounts share cosmological details with Genesis. And those details aren't twisted or evil because Genesis also contains those details.

Exactly!
Why do they share some details?
The original is not evil, or twisted. Again, please try to follow.

For example, the flood occured, and was not recorded, until centuries later, but it was known, and the account was passed on, and guess what? It was altered, misrepresented, and even applied to other god, with additions, subtractions, and complete makeovers, so as to fit the ideas attributed to false worship.
List of flood legends
This is how Satan and the demon twist the truth.

In other words, what Shem, Ham, and Japheth recounted, is the original - the truth.
When the people at Babel - meaning confusion, scattered, they took the account with them, and due to their false worship of the gods, and demons, the truth became altered, with additions, subtractions, and complete makeovers, so as to fit the ideas attributed to false worship.

Of course, some details remain.
For one thing, Satan is no fool. The Bible describes him as very cunning - a master deceiver.
A little poison in your lemonade will still kill you. Lies mixed with the truth will still mislead you.
That's why there are thousands of religions with hundreds of variations of "the truth", because while there can only be one truth, they can be billions of lies.

I really hope you got that.

But also, those shared details, they did not originate from some kind of oral tradition that goes back to Adam or something like that. But rather, these concepts of cosmology in Job and Genesis, they are just a normal part of how these ancient cultures described the cosmos. Much like the Hebrew language, these concepts are a part of the culture of that time. They didn't come from Adam.

Adam was not alive when God created the heavens and the earth.
It came from God. and just as God spoke to Job, he spoke to others prior to Job. Even Abraham was told, to look up at the stars.

Imagine someone telling you, "Look at the moon, and you do not know what the moon is."
"Wait. How did that get there?" The ancients knew how they got there. They communicated with God, and God communicated with them.

The "normal part", would be to look up and wonder, "What are those twinkly things? Maybe they are little lamps, glowing in the darkness on different worlds.

I gave this example before, but Adam is a Hebrew word. It means "humanity". Adam is not an actual proper noun, or the name of the man. Later in Genesis it becomes his name. But earlier in Genesis, it is a Hebrew word that is assigned to him.

And eves name is "life".

So imagine if I wrote a story and I said " In the beginning there was humanity and life" right, that's not their actual names. Those are names that I gave them, based on my culture.

Did you know the Bible actually tells us why the woman was named Eve, and who gave her that name?
Do you know, we can work out why the man was called Adam, and why he got that name?
Names were important, and had meaning.
God also gave names to people.

The Hebrew culture, assigned them names, and wrote that in Genesis. So it didn't come from Adam. Adam didn't speak Hebrew. Hebrew didn't even exist in the time of Adam. So it's not like Adam would name himself a Hebrew name or a Hebrew word.

Adam did not name himself.
Adam named his wife, Eve. Genesis 3:20
God obviously gave the man his name.

The same thing works with cosmology in Genesis. It didn't come from some oral tradition going back to Adam. It came from the Hebrew culture. The ancient near east.

Did God communicate with Adam?
The Bible says he did. Genesis 3:8

Now, I don't know about you, but I know for a fact that every loving parent that communicates with their children are happy to tell them about their work... especially when that work is for the children, and I do not know of any child that does not ask their loving parent questions about things they do not know.

So, if you believe that Adam, a man whom "God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name", did not actually hear from God, that he created these things, I'll leave you with that belief, since you seem to want to have it.

I do know that what was written centuries after creation, was not new to people living 3,000 years after.

@CoreyD
And here is where I re-read and re-commented on the Babylonian map of the world topic:

The Firmament

Why are you referring to when God chose the Israelites as His chosen people? I'm referring to a time when people were inspired to write the Bible. What do you mean by that... inspiring to write, or inspiring to teach? God inspired the Biblical authors. They in turn went and wrote our Bible...

www.christianforums.com

I agree with the concepts that you've shared. I don't see them as contrasting with my own.

How do they agree?
II do not see anything in the article, suggesting a flat earth.

And just as a reminder, here are the cosmology related concepts that I am referring to above:

They aren't demonic or twisted concepts. They are in the Bible.

But likewise, when we find them in other texts such as Egyptian texts, it's not as though they were taken from some earlier Adamic oral tradition. Adam knew nothing of these concepts. Rather these are concepts of the culture of that age and time. Much like the Hebrew language. It's just part of the culture of that age. It did not come from God. Like Hebrew it came from people. And Genesis is written in Hebrew. And likewise, Genesis also contains other things from the Hebrew culture.

They are not in the Bible,
They are in the interpretations of the Bible, and I showed one example of this.
Firmament

"From the Vulgate firmamentum, which is used as the translation" "of the Hebrew raki'a. This word means simply "expansion." It" denotes the space or expanse like an arch appearing immediately above us. They who rendered raki'a by firmamentum regarded it as a solid body. The language of Scripture is not scientific but "popular, and hence we read of the sun rising and setting, and" also here the use of this particular word. It is plain that it was used to denote solidity as well as expansion. It formed a division between the waters above and the waters below (Gen. 1:7). The raki'a supported the upper reservoir (Ps. 148:4). It "was the support also of the heavenly bodies (Gen. 1:14), and is" "spoken of as having "windows" and "doors" (Gen. 7:11; Isa." 24:18; Mal. 3:10) through which the rain and snow might descend.​

These are people, who have their own ideas, and their interpretations, are as you said, "a product of their beliefs".
To claim that these interpretations are in the Bible, is not correct. That is not a true statement to be making.

 

[CoreyD]

And I will say, this article offends many people. And there are softer tones to take on the matter.

Nobody, as far as I can tell, actually knows how many ancient Israelites held to ancient cosmology, versus how many simply used the language poetically or phenomenologically to describe things. Some people looked up and saw the blue sky, like an ocean. And maybe some actually did think that it was made of water, the waters above. But it's also possible that some looked up and just called it that, because it phenomenologically looks like water.

So it's not clear who all actually believes such concepts literally versus who was simply using common language of the time poetically or figuratively.

But either way you swing it, these concepts, be them understood literally or figuratively, still say what they say and describe what they describe.

I totally disagree with this assumption.

It presumes that the nation of Israel had no roots in people that God was with, and that walked with God.
Israel is Jacob, and God spoke with Abraham, his friend, Isaac, and Jacob.
Why, Jacob wrestled with an angel. Was he like... "What is this. Some kind of half man, half beast?"
No. Jacob knew it was one of God's angels. How could he know, without knowing God, and the things about God?

Your view on this, is not in line with scripture, I must say, and in my opinion, it is an extreme stretch to fit pagan concepts.
It's even more than that, but...

Perhaps read the history of God's people - from Abraham, to Moses, and see that they were very familiar with God.
Where did they look when praying? Not in a river, but to the heavens above. they knew where god dwelled.
They heard his voice. They saw angels ascend and descend, and much much more.

You are very mistaken, and as you said, your interpretation is a product of your beliefs, so that explains it all.

 

[Job 33:6]

That's not what I said.
Try to follow what I am saying.

Genesis 10:1-11:10

• Egyptians are descendants of Pathrusim.
• Pathrusim is a descendant of Mizraim.
• Mizraim is a son of Ham.
• Shortly after the birth Pathrusim, when the earth was one language... before Egyptians existed, the people engaged in building a ziggurat, to engage in false worship, and God scattered them.
• From there we get the various language groups - the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, the Jebusites (Genesis 15:19-21), who formed their own worship to various gods.

The people that worshipped other gods, were manipulated by demons, and out of these groups, came the Egyptians. Ezekiel 29:14
So, the Egyptians were born with false beliefs, worshipping different gods, and demons. Deuteronomy 32:17; Psalm 106:37

I went slowly, and step by step, so I hope you were able to follow, and it's clear now.


Exactly!
Why do they share some details?
The original is not evil, or twisted. Again, please try to follow.

For example, the flood occured, and was not recorded, until centuries later, but it was known, and the account was passed on, and guess what? It was altered, misrepresented, and even applied to other god, with additions, subtractions, and complete makeovers, so as to fit the ideas attributed to false worship.
List of flood legends
This is how Satan and the demon twist the truth.

In other words, what Shem, Ham, and Japheth recounted, is the original - the truth.
When the people at Babel - meaning confusion, scattered, they took the account with them, and due to their false worship of the gods, and demons, the truth became altered, with additions, subtractions, and complete makeovers, so as to fit the ideas attributed to false worship.

Of course, some details remain.
For one thing, Satan is no fool. The Bible describes him as very cunning - a master deceiver.
A little poison in your lemonade will still kill you. Lies mixed with the truth will still mislead you.
That's why there are thousands of religions with hundreds of variations of "the truth", because while there can only be one truth, they can be billions of lies.

I really hope you got that.


Adam was not alive when God created the heavens and the earth.
It came from God. and just as God spoke to Job, he spoke to others prior to Job. Even Abraham was told, to look up at the stars.

Imagine someone telling you, "Look at the moon, and you do not know what the moon is."
"Wait. How did that get there?" The ancients knew how they got there. They communicated with God, and God communicated with them.

The "normal part", would be to look up and wonder, "What are those twinkly things? Maybe they are little lamps, glowing in the darkness on different worlds.


Did you know the Bible actually tells us why the woman was named Eve, and who gave her that name?
Do you know, we can work out why the man was called Adam, and why he got that name?
Names were important, and had meaning.
God also gave names to people.


Adam did not name himself.
Adam named his wife, Eve. Genesis 3:20
God obviously gave the man his name.


Did God communicate with Adam?
The Bible says he did. Genesis 3:8

Now, I don't know about you, but I know for a fact that every loving parent that communicates with their children are happy to tell them about their work... especially when that work is for the children, and I do not know of any child that does not ask their loving parent questions about things they do not know.

So, if you believe that Adam, a man whom "God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name", did not actually hear from God, that he created these things, I'll leave you with that belief, since you seem to want to have it.

I do know that what was written centuries after creation, was not new to people living 3,000 years after.


How do they agree?
II do not see anything in the article, suggesting a flat earth.

They are not in the Bible,
They are in the interpretations of the Bible, and I showed one example of this.
Firmament

"From the Vulgate firmamentum, which is used as the translation" "of the Hebrew raki'a. This word means simply "expansion." It" denotes the space or expanse like an arch appearing immediately above us. They who rendered raki'a by firmamentum regarded it as a solid body. The language of Scripture is not scientific but "popular, and hence we read of the sun rising and setting, and" also here the use of this particular word. It is plain that it was used to denote solidity as well as expansion. It formed a division between the waters above and the waters below (Gen. 1:7). The raki'a supported the upper reservoir (Ps. 148:4). It "was the support also of the heavenly bodies (Gen. 1:14), and is" "spoken of as having "windows" and "doors" (Gen. 7:11; Isa." 24:18; Mal. 3:10) through which the rain and snow might descend.​

These are people, who have their own ideas, and their interpretations, are as you said, "a product of their beliefs".
To claim that these interpretations are in the Bible, is not correct. That is not a true statement to be making.

The solid sky interpretation is indeed in the Bible. To say otherwise, I would say is simply denial.

Job 37:18 ESV
[18] Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?

Amos 9:6 NASB1995
[6] The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

Job 22:14 LEB
[14] Thick clouds are a covering for him, so that he does not see; and he walks about on the dome of heaven.’

Exodus 24:10 ESV
[10] and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.

Genesis 8:2 NASB1995
[2] Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

And you can call this all figurative if you want. But the Bible is pretty straightforward about the solid nature of the sky in the Bible.

The Bible also has lots of passages about all sorts of other ancient near east concepts. An underworld that people can fall down into:

Numbers 16:32, 32-33 ESV
[32] And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods. [33] So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

The earth resting on pillars is a common one.

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

The Catholic Church was confused about geocentrism, we know that history. They get that from ancient Israelite cosmology in the Bible:

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭
The sun rises, and the sun goes down; to its place it hurries, and there it rises again.

There are lots and lots of examples I could give. And all of these concepts are found in extrabiblical literature.

And to try to argue that things like Egyptian creation texts are just corrupted versions of an original biblical oral teaching, really doesn't hold any way.

A. There is no evidence for an older oral tradition of Biblical ideas in terms of cosmology, prior to these other cultures. You're repeating that Egyptians descended from Ham, but those passages don't say anything about cosmology being passed down.

B. The Egyptian creation texts have comes centuries earlier.

C. You can't call the Egyptian creation texts corrupted if they say the same thing that the Bible says, in terms of cosmology. If Egyptians had texts about the sky being solid, for example, you can't call that corruption if the Bible presents the same idea.

If the content matches, they must either both reflect truth or both be products of a shared cultural understanding. Calling one corrupted without evidence while accepting the other as pure truth is inconsistent.

 

[Job 33:6]

I totally disagree with this assumption.

I don't think that there is really anything to disagree with. It's just a well known fact of history that the sky was described in solid terms in many ancient cultures. It's just a normal and common aspect of history. Including in the ancient near east and, quite plainly, it's also in the Bible.

It presumes that the nation of Israel had no roots in people that God was with, and that walked with God.
Israel is Jacob, and God spoke with Abraham, his friend, Isaac, and Jacob.
Why, Jacob wrestled with an angel. Was he like... "What is this. Some kind of half man, half beast?"
No. Jacob knew it was one of God's angels. How could he know, without knowing God, and the things about God?

I don't see any of this having to do with cosmology.

Your view on this, is not in line with scripture, I must say, and in my opinion, it is an extreme stretch to fit pagan concepts.
It's even more than that, but...

Perhaps read the history of God's people - from Abraham, to Moses, and see that they were very familiar with God.
Where did they look when praying? Not in a river, but to the heavens above. they knew where god dwelled.
They heard his voice. They saw angels ascend and descend, and much much more.

This doesn't appear to relate to cosmology either. And I've cited passages in quite a few of my posts. Indeed, what I am describing is Biblical, that's why I am sharing passages from the Bible.

 

[Job 33:6]

So, you agree that people worshipped gods, when they left God, and these gods are associated with demons - wicked angels.

Yes, that's a common detail of the Bible.

So, you agree that wicked angels mislead people into believing all sorts of things.

Yes.

You agree that people who separate from God, teach godly things, or demonic, or satanic things. Good.


Please show me "these concepts of cosmology" that you see stated in Genesis.

They're stated everywhere in the Old Testament, not just in Genesis. But the following video gives a nice brief summary along with passages for reference, including some passages in Genesis:

 

[Job 33:6]

Please explain what "cosmology described within Genesis" does not predate Egypt, and why you would say such.
While you do so, please tell us, are you saying that what is mentioned in the scriptures quoted in this post, does not predate Egypt? If so, please explain how that is possible.

What I am saying is that there is no evidence that these concepts of ancient Near East cosmology predate the ancient Near East in the sense that there was some hypothetical Adamic oral tradition that was somehow captured in pagan texts, as if pagan texts might include prophetic information that was provided by God.

So, you agree that God passed on knowledge prior to the recording of scripture, and people also passed on knowledge prior to the recording of scripture.

Yes.

In the very first verse of Chapter 5, of the book of Genesis, the writer, states:
These are the family records [ historical record / written account * ] of the descendants of Adam. On the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God;
* Usage: The term "toledoth" is used in the Hebrew Bible to denote genealogical records or accounts of a person's descendants. It often introduces sections of narrative that detail the lineage and history of key biblical figures. The word can also refer to the broader historical or narrative account of a family or group.

How was the record of Genesis 4:1-5:32 acquired?

There isn't anything cosmology related to this. But you can still see evidence of anachronism in the text, indicating that the text has been influenced by its Hebrew-speaking author. For example:

Genesis 4:22 NASB1995
[22] As for Zillah, she also gave birth to Tubal-cain, the forger of all implements of bronze and iron; and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.

The Iron Age was about the time in which ancient Near Eastern Israelites lived. There wasn't such a thing as iron in the Age of Adam, given that the Iron Age was more recent than 1,500 BC.

Same with camels in Genesis. Domesticated camels were not around in the time of Abraham.

Domesticated Camels Came to Israel in 930 B.C., Centuries Later Than Bible Says

Domesticated camels weren't known in Israel until about 900 B.C., when there were major changes in copper production throughout the region.

www.nationalgeographic.com

So, you have to understand that there is a human component involved in the authorship of the text, alongside revelation from God.

Genesis 4, would be a similar concept. Real people. But there are fine details in the text that are anachronistic or figurative.

But this chapter doesn't relate to the topic of cosmology.

So, Genesis 1:1-11:32( ? ) was a product of the culture at the time of 16th century B.C.?
So, all the history written, including the events, the genealogical records, and the rise of nations, was a product of the culture at the time of 16th century B.C.?
This is what you believe?

The cosmology of Genesis 1-11 is a product of the cultural context of the ancient Near East.

So, you do not believe Genesis was inspired by God. Is that correct?
How was it known that there was a garden of Eden that God planted, and there is where God placed the first man and woman? Was that a cultural story of the 16th century, in your view?

Genesis is inspired. But it still contains aspects of the author's cultural context.

Thank you.
Who is the author of the words penned, in this situation?
Jeremiah 36:32
Then Jeremiah took another scroll and gave it to the scribe Baruch son of Neriah, and at Jeremiah’s dictation he wrote on it all the words of the scroll that Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire. And many similar words were added to them.

In this case, we have dictation from God being described.

Or, in the case of this scenario.
You are secretary to the boss of a company, and he calls you to his office and dictated to you what he wants written in a letter. to someone.
Are you the author of that letter?

No, the secretary wouldn't be the author here. Thought I'd say that this isn't actually how the Bible was written.

If the thoughts of the letter, are those of the boss, how are you the author?
If the scripture are the thoughts of God, and the men he used to pen those thoughts, wrote them down, as directed by him, how are the men, the authors of those words?
How can a mere man be the author of something that is beyond his knowledge, or comprehension?

The Bible is not as simple as people just copying down God's direct dictations. It is a combination of divine revelation and human cultural reference.

Daniel 12:8-10
8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

2 Peter 1:21
For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.


Thanks.


What position is that, and what is it that I believe, which I have not already given evidence of?
Are you saying the scriptures are not evidence?

In terms of cosmology, these are not dictations from God; these are cultural references by human authors.

When did the flood of Noah's day occur, and when is the Mesopotamian flood myth claimed to have occurred?
When you compare the dates, which is earlier?

These two stories speak of the same events. So they wouldn't have occurred at different times. Though the Mesopotamian narrative is centuries older than the narrative of Noah's ark.

There clearly is a misunderstanding, but not on my part.
What do you suppose Adam shared with Eve, and since Eve died before Adam, what could she have shared?
They could share what happened in the garden, and why they were kicked out.

Ah, no. There's no evidence of this idea you have about Adam passing on some oral tradition, particularly in terms of the cosmology of Genesis. It just never happened. And there's no evidence for such a perspective.

However, no one needed to tell Noah about the flood.
He witnessed it, along with his three sons.
So, when we consider what the Bible tells us at Genesis 10:1-32, yes, the flood account was related to the generations, and it was related to the Pathrusim, whose descendants were Egyptians.

The many generations, indeed had descendants that passed on various flood myths.
How do we know? The very next words to follow Genesis 10:32, were...
Please read Genesis 11:1-32.

The aspects of the flood that are associated with ancient cosmology are not concepts that would have originated from God's revelation.

The above cited passages don't actually say anything about what was or was not passed on.

For example, the solid sky windows opening and closing to release and restrain the waters above in Genesis 7:11 and 8:2.

This isn't a revelation; that's a cultural reference.

Yes, they were scattered, all over the earth, with different languages, from which different culture, false worship of various gods, came forth different flood legends.
That is the history.

The flood was prior to this.

Even the Tower of Babel narrative contains ancient Near Eastern contextual concepts such as the divine council. For example, in Genesis 11, God says let us go down and confuse their tongues.

Well, "let us go down". It's not God talking to Jesus. It's God talking to his heavenly council of deities. Which is a common ancient Near East depiction of deities of that age of time.

You're just not acknowledging the cultural context behind these stories.

"Genesis 11:7 NASB1995
[7] Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language so that they will not understand one another’s speech.”

You're missing the cultural context of the Bible.

Why not?

Because the Bible has context. And if you ignore the context, then you're not reading the Bible.

Genesis 11:1-9, 27, 28
Who were the Chaldeans, and where did they come from?
What did they worship? Genesis 13:12, 13

The table of nations and the 70 descendants in which the territories of God were divided is also an ancient Near Eastern concept found in extrabiblical literature.

You're just not understanding these stories; there is more to them than you're acknowledging.

They certainly did not worship God.
So, who and what did they worship?
You agreed

• That people worshipped gods, when they left God, and these gods are associated with demons - wicked angels.
• that wicked angels mislead people into believing all sorts of things.
• that people who separate from God, teach godly things, or demonic, or satanic things

Why do you say that we are not dealing with this, when we are talking about all the nations that were practicing things that God abhorred... all the nations that were a product of Shem, Ham, and Japheth, but who deviated from God at the tower of Babel?

Same as above. You're missing the context. Of course these various nations deviated from God, but what does that have to do with their shared cosmology with the Bible?

Excuse me, please, but can you explain what you mean by "some things were just normal parts of the ancient culture", and what are "some of these same details".

See the above citation of Paul Seely and the raqia.

 

[Job 33:6]

Numbers 16:32, 32-33 ESV
[32] And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods. [33] So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

Here's another concept in Genesis. This underworld is called "Sheol".

Genesis 37:35 ESV
[35] All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, “No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” Thus his father wept for him.

It's not as though someone could grab a shovel and just go digging down into the earth, and they might find some kind of underworld where demons are running around and stuff.

This is just a common way that ancient people described the supernatural world of the dead. As though it were cosmologically below our feet. That people fall into or that when they die, they go down into it where they might spend time with others.

Jonah goes there too.

Jonah 2:2-6 ESV
[2] saying, “I called out to the Lord, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice. [3] For you cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded me; all your waves and your billows passed over me. [4] Then I said, ‘I am driven away from your sight, yet I shall again look upon your holy temple.’ [5] The waters closed in over me to take my life; the deep surrounded me; weeds were wrapped about my head [6] at the roots of the mountains. I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever; yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God.

The roots and bars closed around him, and out of the belly of Sheol, he cried. For the people of Korah, the ground opened up, and they just fell into it.

But you have to understand that this is an ancient cosmological context at play. Where there is an underworld. And you can go down to it.

But in the 21st century, we have shovels, we can dig all we want and we know that there isn't anything down there. It's just how ancient people described the world around them. And that's what Genesis 1 is, in a nutshell. It includes a description of ancient cosmology, common in extrabiblical texts, such as Egyptian texts like the Memphite Theology.

We talked a bit about the unfinished kuduru stone. It's an artifact that also depicts these concepts. Earth on pillars, an underworld, the waters above and below, etc.

And yes, that is a leviathan there in the waters of the deep. Leviathan is also found in extrabiblical texts that predate the Bible, such as in the Baal cycle. In some texts, it is described as having multiple heads (see Psalm 74:14). In others, it breathes fire.

But these concepts are not to be confused with divine revelation in any historical sense. We have boats, we can go into the ocean. We know that there are no multi-headed fire-breathing sea dragons out there.

These are cultural reference points. They did not originate from God. There is no evidence that Adam passed on some oral tradition about fire-breathing multi-headed sea dragons. It's just part of their culture to use these stories to convey theology.

@CoreyD so, if your goal is to view the Bible as just a blunt and direct dictation from God, then you're going to run into a lot of bizarre things.

In the Baal cycle, and in Enuma Elish, God defeats a sea dragon and destroys it and uses its body to create the universe.

Psalm 74:14-17 ESV
[14] You crushed the heads of Leviathan; you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness. [15] You split open springs and brooks; you dried up ever-flowing streams. [16] Yours is the day, yours also the night; you have established the heavenly lights and the sun. [17] You have fixed all the boundaries of the earth; you have made summer and winter.

If you don't see these passages as a product of cultural context, then what exactly do you say for something like this? Why would God talk about destroying a sea dragon when he fixed the boundaries of the earth and established the luminaries?

Is this "history" to you?

"Oh well, it's just talking about Egypt", ok, and why would God refer to Egypt by the name of a sea dragon?

The Bible just wouldn't make any sense if someone didn't acknowledge it's ancient near east context.

 

[Job 33:6]

That's not what I said.
Try to follow what I am saying.

Genesis 10:1-11:10

• Egyptians are descendants of Pathrusim.
• Pathrusim is a descendant of Mizraim.
• Mizraim is a son of Ham.
• Shortly after the birth Pathrusim, when the earth was one language... before Egyptians existed, the people engaged in building a ziggurat, to engage in false worship, and God scattered them.
• From there we get the various language groups - the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, the Jebusites (Genesis 15:19-21), who formed their own worship to various gods.

The people that worshipped other gods, were manipulated by demons, and out of these groups, came the Egyptians. Ezekiel 29:14
So, the Egyptians were born with false beliefs, worshipping different gods, and demons. Deuteronomy 32:17; Psalm 106:37

I went slowly, and step by step, so I hope you were able to follow, and it's clear now.

I don't see how any of this relates to ancient Israelite cosmology in the Old Testament, which is probably why I'm having a hard time responding to it. It just doesn't seem to address the topic at hand. If you'd like, feel free to explain how these topics relate.

Saying "Egyptians were born with false beliefs".

Ok well, in terms of cosmology, their creation texts say the same things that Genesis does. So they cannot be false. Unless you want to call Genesis false as well.

It sounds like you're arguing that the Egyptians have a subverted version of Genesis. But the problem with this, as noted above, is that Egyptian creation texts with aspects of Genesis are centuries older than Genesis. And there is no evidence of a more ancient oral tradition originating from Adam or Ham or anyone of Genesis 1-10.

Even as noted above, the Tower of Babel narrative itself contains things like references to the divine council. Which is a common concept of ancient Near East extrabiblical literature.

I just don't see the point of your comments here.

 

[CoreyD]

They're stated everywhere in the Old Testament, not just in Genesis. But the following video gives a nice brief summary along with passages for reference, including some passages in Genesis:

Excuse me, but this video starts with someone telling us, that their interpretation is correct, and everyone else's is incorrect, and he follows that up by making certain claims, such as what he thinks the ancient Israelites believed, and then misusing scripture to try to support his claims...

For example, he claims that the Israelites believed in a cosmology common among ancient people, which encompasses a heavenly realm, an earthly realm, and an underworld, then he misuses Exodus 20:4, by claiming that the concept is reflected in that verse.
How did he get the waters under the earth to be the underworld?

His ideas are not correct, and the facts are available to all of us, that the underworld - "the world of the dead" concept was a later belief based on Greek mythology. See Greek underworld and Hades.
Sheol
While the Hebrew Bible appears to describe Sheol as the permanent place of the dead, in the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BCE – 70 CE) a more diverse set of ideas developed. In some texts, Sheol is considered to be the home of both the righteous and the wicked, separated into respective compartments; in others, it was considered a place of punishment, meant for the wicked dead alone. When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria around 200 BCE, the word "Hades" (the Greek underworld) was substituted for Sheol, owing to its similarities to the Underworld of Greek mythology. The gloss of Sheol as "Hades" is reflected in the New Testament where Hades is both the underworld of the dead and the personification of the evil it represents.

So, it is the case that the scripture convey something quite different to what persons interpret, based of ideas that developed later..
This is exactly the point you are not seeing, and therefore, you think the video is nice, but it is actually wrong, and misleading.
I cannot sit and listen to another second of misinformation, and simply claims based not on facts, but wrong beliefs.

If the video reflects your views, why are you still holding strong to that view, despite all the evidence against it?

What I am saying is that there is no evidence that these concepts of ancient Near East cosmology predate the ancient Near East in the sense that there was some hypothetical Adamic oral tradition that was somehow captured in pagan texts, as if pagan texts might include prophetic information that was provided by God.

If the creation account does not predate the Egyptians, that would also mean that Pathrusim did not predate the Egyptians.
So, are you saying that the history in the Bible did not happen, but was made up in the 16th century B.C.?

 

[Job 33:6]

Excuse me, but this video starts with someone telling us, that their interpretation is correct, and everyone else's is incorrect, and he follows that up by making certain claims, such as what he thinks the ancient Israelites believed, and then misusing scripture to try to support his claims...

For example, he claims that the Israelites believed in a cosmology common among ancient people, which encompasses a heavenly realm, an earthly realm, and an underworld, then he misuses Exodus 20:4, by claiming that the concept is reflected in that verse.
How did he get the waters under the earth to be the underworld?

Sheol is described in watery terms in the Bible. For example:

For the waves of death encompassed me; The floods of destruction terrified me; The ropes of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
2 Samuel 22:5‭-‬6 NASB

His ideas are not correct, and the facts are available to all of us, that the underworld - "the world of the dead" concept was a later belief based on Greek mythology. See Greek underworld and Hades.
Sheol

Incorrect. The underworld was a common concepts of ancient near east cultures that go back thousands of years before the Greeks. Such as the Egyptian underworld, the duat.
Sheol - Wikipedia

While the Hebrew Bible appears to describe Sheol as the permanent place of the dead, in the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BCE – 70 CE) a more diverse set of ideas developed. In some texts, Sheol is considered to be the home of both the righteous and the wicked, separated into respective compartments; in others, it was considered a place of punishment, meant for the wicked dead alone. When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria around 200 BCE, the word "Hades" (the Greek underworld) was substituted for Sheol, owing to its similarities to the Underworld of Greek mythology. The gloss of Sheol as "Hades" is reflected in the New Testament where Hades is both the underworld of the dead and the personification of the evil it represents.

Correct.

So, it is the case that the scripture convey something quite different to what persons interpret, based of ideas that developed later..
This is exactly the point you are not seeing, and therefore, you think the video is nice, but it is actually wrong, and misleading.
I cannot sit and listen to another second of misinformation, and simply claims based not on facts, but wrong beliefs.

You've made mistakes in your understanding such as those noted above.

 

[Job 33:6]

If the creation account does not predate the Egyptians, that would also mean that Pathrusim did not predate the Egyptians.
So, are you saying that the history in the Bible did not happen, but was made up in the 16th century B.C.?

Genesis 10:13-14 NIV
[13] Egypt was the father of the Ludites, Anamites, Lehabites, Naphtuhites, [14] Pathrusites, Kasluhites (from whom the Philistines came) and Caphtorites.

See below:

 

[Job 33:6]

If the creation account does not predate the Egyptians, that would also mean that Pathrusim did not predate the Egyptians.
So, are you saying that the history in the Bible did not happen, but was made up in the 16th century B.C.?

The difficulty that I'm having with this, is that I don't see how it relates to the topic at hand. Because the Bible could contain ancient near east cosmology regardless of if it was written before or after the time of the Egyptians. I just don't see how you're linking these topics together.

I can write a history book today, and that history book can be true, regardless of if I am writing about history that has already passed.

Genesis being written after the time of the Egyptians would not make Genesis untrue, if that is what you're worried about.

Additionally, there is a difference between saying that cosmology of Genesis didn't predate the Egyptians, and saying that no events of Genesis at all, happened before the Egyptians.

For example, acknowledging that Genesis was written after things like Egyptian creation texts that have the same cosmology, doesn't negate the existence of Adam.

These are two different topics. And just because the Israelites share cultural ideas with Egypt, doesn't mean that the Bible is therefore made-up history.

There just isn't a direct line of logic here. So I keep seeing you repeating this comment about Egypt descending from Ham. But I just don't see what you're trying to do with this idea.

 

[Job 33:6]

@CoreyD

Ancient Near Eastern cosmology was a shared cultural concept at the time and doesn’t necessarily invalidate the truth of Genesis. Just because some elements are similar doesn’t mean Genesis is derivative or "made-up." The cultural context could explain the similarities.

Genesis, even if written after the Egyptian texts, still presents historical events (like the creation and the flood) that are viewed as true in the biblical tradition, regardless of when they were written down. The existence of Adam and other figures, for example, or Ham or whomever, isn't dependent on when the texts were penned.

And cultural reference points, are one of those topics that can be added to God's theological revelation, hypothetically at any time.

Paul, for example has a different cultural context and he writes in a different way, and he lives at a different time than the Israelites.

It's just not something alters the truth of Genesis. Cultural reference doesn't change the truth of God's revelation.

Or in more direct terms, even if the Bible described the Earth as flat in the Old Testament, that doesn't actually change the truth of scripture, it just tells us that the authors that God used to write Genesis, they lived a long time ago. But that doesn't change the theology that God presents.

The only way that this would invalidate the Bible is if somebody assumed the Bible to be something akin to a science textbook. Which it is not.

If someone assumes that it was God's objective to reveal a truth of a solid sky as revelation (scientifically), then you would have a problem. But if you understand that it's just a part of the cultural context of the ancient Israelites, and it's just how they described the world, and they reference their cosmology while sharing God's revealed truth (theologically) then you don't have to worry about it.

 

[Job 33:6]

Sheol is described in watery terms in the Bible. For example:

For the waves of death encompassed me; The floods of destruction terrified me; The ropes of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
2 Samuel 22:5‭-‬6 NASB

I just want to point out too that, there is more to this. It actually makes a lot of sense if you spend time in reading or in study of ancient near east literature.

The sea is death. The sea is destruction. It is chaos. It is, tohu wa bohu. It is the...it's like, the absolute opposite of God. It is death. And you will often see this kind of interplay between the underworld and the deep waters, throughout the old testament.

One of the most popular examples of this is when Jonah is thrown into the deep, tehom, and he sinks and sinks and, the ropes wrap around him and the bars close over him.

He cries out to God.

He didn't merely drown or go for a swim. Jonah went the furthest away from God, imaginable. To the extent that he went to sheol. He died the fullest death imaginable. And in 3 days, he was delivered.

Jonah 2:2 ESV
[2] saying, “I called out to the Lord, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice.

Jonah 2:3, 5-6 ESV
[3] For you cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded me; all your waves and your billows passed over me.
[5] The waters closed in over me to take my life; the deep surrounded me; weeds were wrapped about my head [6] at the roots of the mountains. I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever; yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God.

You'll also notice that the term "the pit" is used in this passage. The pit is also a common term for sheol in the old testament.

Isaiah 14:15 ESV
[15] But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.

@CoreyD

But this cannot clearly be seen, until someone dives into the ancient culture.

A lot of people read Jonah, and they think of the giant fish and Jonah going for a swim. But, if you know the background context, it is a far deeper story, theologically. Not just in terms of how Jesus reflects on this story. But in its own ancient cultural context. But you have to see things like ancient cosmology, to help illuminate that meaning.

And that's why you'll find these passages about sheol and the waters below, used in various ways. The deep. Or here is another one:

Job 26:5-6 ESV
[5] The dead tremble under the waters and their inhabitants. [6] Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.

The departed spirits, the shades, or the spirits of the dead, they are "down there". Trembling under the waters.

And that's why the passage says:
Exodus 20:4 ESV
[4] “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

No idols, including idols of beings under the earth in the waters.

 

[CoreyD]

Sheol is described in watery terms in the Bible. For example:

For the waves of death encompassed me; The floods of destruction terrified me; The ropes of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
2 Samuel 22:5‭-‬6 NASB

Waves of death mean water?
Floods of destruction are describing water?
You are kidding me, aren't you. Tell me you're kidding.

Incorrect. The underworld was a common concepts of ancient near east cultures that go back thousands of years before the Greeks. Such as the Egyptian underworld, the duat.
Sheol - Wikipedia

While the Hebrew Bible appears to describe Sheol as the permanent place of the dead, in the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BCE – 70 CE) a more diverse set of ideas developed.

Are we reading the same article?
Where is your quote?

Correct.

You've made mistakes in your understanding such as those noted above.

Where?

Genesis 10:13-14 NIV
[13] Egypt was the father of the Ludites, Anamites, Lehabites, Naphtuhites, [14] Pathrusites, Kasluhites (from whom the Philistines came) and Caphtorites.

See below:

The NIV is a weird translation.
Sometime I wonder if it's a paraphrase, like Good News Bible.

I suggest you get a kingdom interlinear, so you don't read a translation that says what you want to hear.
Or read it from here. Genesis 10:13 Interlinear: And Mitzraim hath begotten the Ludim, and the Anamim, and the Lehabim, and the Naphtuhim,

I wonder who begot Egypt. It looks like they just appeared out of nowhere, according to that translation.

The difficulty that I'm having with this, is that I don't see how it relates to the topic at hand. Because the Bible could contain ancient near east cosmology regardless of if it was written before or after the time of the Egyptians. I just don't see how you're linking these topics together.

How is that possible.
If the events of the Bible predate Egyptian cosmology... which it does, then it does not contain ancient near east cosmology.
What a contains may be far from ancient near east cosmology, but then, as has happened, people familiar with myths, can, and have said, well look, the Bible is describing ancient near east cosmology.... only because they interpret the text based on their belief that it is ancient near east cosmology.

Do you see how that works?

I can write a history book today, and that history book can be true, regardless of if I am writing about history that has already passed.

Exactly!

Genesis being written after the time of the Egyptians would not make Genesis untrue, if that is what you're worried about.

No. That does not worry me. That is exactly what I said.
What some people claim however, is that the Egyptian cosmology predates the history.
In fact, I know a certain individual who was arguing that moments ago. Has that changed?

Additionally, there is a difference between saying that cosmology of Genesis didn't predate the Egyptians, and saying that no events of Genesis at all, happened before the Egyptians.

There is no difference.
One says that the farthest event in history didn't predate the Egyptians, but events after did predate the Egyptians.
That is the same thing as saying, The most historic event did not happen until after the Egyptians, and hence, no event after that happened prior to the Egyptians.

It's a case of one wanting their cake, and eating it too.

For example, acknowledging that Genesis was written after things like Egyptian creation texts that have the same cosmology, doesn't negate the existence of Adam.

If one claims that Genesis copied from Mesopotamian or Egyptian creation texts, then yes, it is to claim that Adam is a myth, borrowed from earlier texts.

These are two different topics. And just because the Israelites share cultural ideas with Egypt, doesn't mean that the Bible is therefore made-up history.

If one dismisses the history of Israel, and their "cultural ideas", and ignores the fact that the people that left true worship, from which Egypt was born, had ideas based on false worship, that one is not treating the Bible as relevant to the topic, and that evidence is not important enough to affect that one's beliefs.

There just isn't a direct line of logic here. So I keep seeing you repeating this comment about Egypt descending from Ham. But I just don't see what you're trying to do with this idea.

I understand why you do not see.
You are making so many posts, one after the other, I can hardly keep up, and then you go back, and address what I said, and I lost track on which post is which. It should be clear, I think.

Take for example, your next post.
Consider how it starts.

@CoreyD

Ancient Near Eastern cosmology was a shared cultural concept at the time and doesn’t necessarily invalidate the truth of Genesis. Just because some elements are similar doesn’t mean Genesis is derivative or "made-up." The cultural context could explain the similarities.

Isn't is as if you ignored what is being repeated... which is key - vital to the truth?
Did the Bible not give us the reason for some similarities, and did I not take the time to repeat this, very slowly, and in baby steps... and what did Job 33:6 do?

I believe if one admits that the Egyptians were born from a people that deviated from true worship, to worship false gods, one has no choice but to admit the the Egyptian cosmology is false, and contrary to the original, even though some elements remain.
I think one would also have to admit that it is evidence against the interpretations that would make the Bible's account agree with the false beliefs.

Genesis, even if written after the Egyptian texts, still presents historical events (like the creation and the flood) that are viewed as true in the biblical tradition, regardless of when they were written down. The existence of Adam and other figures, for example, or Ham or whomever, isn't dependent on when the texts were penned.

Thank you for agreeing to that.

And cultural reference points, are one of those topics that can be added to God's theological revelation, hypothetically at any time.

Paul, for example has a different cultural context and he writes in a different way, and he lives at a different time than the Israelites.

It's just not something alters the truth of Genesis. Cultural reference doesn't change the truth of God's revelation.

If Paul wrote based on culture, we would not be encouraged to live according to God's high moral standards.
Paul wrote under direction of holy spirit, and did not let culture dictate what he wrote.

Or in more direct terms, even if the Bible described the Earth as flat in the Old Testament, that doesn't actually change the truth of scripture, it just tells us that the authors that God used to write Genesis, they lived a long time ago. But that doesn't change the theology that God presents.

I don't get what you are saying here.
However, if the Bible did described the Earth as flat, would we all not see it?
Why would we need to listen to videos of people telling us about interpretations of scripture, which you said are based on our beliefs?
Are you forgetting?

The only way that this would invalidate the Bible is if somebody assumed the Bible to be something akin to a science textbook. Which it is not.

The Bible says a lot of things, which has nothing to do with science, and people still say otherwise.
Jesus said, "you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition." Matthew 15:6
So, people do dismiss the scriptures for their beliefs, whether it has anything to do with something scientific, or not.

If someone assumes that it was God's objective to reveal a truth of a solid sky as revelation (scientifically), then you would have a problem. But if you understand that it's just a part of the cultural context of the ancient Israelites, and it's just how they described the world, and they reference their cosmology while sharing God's revealed truth (theologically) then you don't have to worry about it.

Would you have a problem with it, if you could see it was a matter of how persons interpreted the text, based on their beliefs?

 

[Job 33:6]

Waves of death mean water?
Floods of destruction are describing water?
You are kidding me, aren't you. Tell me you're kidding.

Floods and waves are water, are they not?

The underworld is among the waters of the deep.

I just want to point out too that, there is more to this. It actually makes a lot of sense if you spend time in reading or in study of ancient near east literature.

The sea is death. The sea is destruction. It is chaos. It is, tohu wa bohu. It is the...it's like, the absolute opposite of God. It is death. And you will often see this kind of interplay between the underworld and the deep waters, throughout the old testament.

One of the most popular examples of this is when Jonah is thrown into the deep, tehom, and he sinks and sinks and, the ropes wrap around him and the bars close over him.

He cries out to God.

He didn't merely drown or go for a swim. Jonah went the furthest away from God, imaginable. To the extent that he went to sheol. He died the fullest death imaginable. And in 3 days, he was delivered.

Jonah 2:2 ESV
[2] saying, “I called out to the Lord, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice.

Jonah 2:3, 5-6 ESV
[3] For you cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded me; all your waves and your billows passed over me.
[5] The waters closed in over me to take my life; the deep surrounded me; weeds were wrapped about my head [6] at the roots of the mountains. I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever; yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God.

You'll also notice that the term "the pit" is used in this passage. The pit is also a common term for sheol in the old testament.

Isaiah 14:15 ESV
[15] But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.

@CoreyD

But this cannot clearly be seen, until someone dives into the ancient culture.

A lot of people read Jonah, and they think of the giant fish and Jonah going for a swim. But, if you know the background context, it is a far deeper story, theologically. Not just in terms of how Jesus reflects on this story. But in its own ancient cultural context. But you have to see things like ancient cosmology, to help illuminate that meaning.

And that's why you'll find these passages about sheol and the waters below, used in various ways. The deep. Or here is another one:

Job 26:5-6 ESV
[5] The dead tremble under the waters and their inhabitants. [6] Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.

The departed spirits, the shades, or the spirits of the dead, they are "down there". Trembling under the waters. The rephaim.

And this is the same reason that Samuel talks about waves and torrents and floods of death. It's a play on words that is correlating the underworld with the waters of the deep. And no, I'm not kidding about any of this. If anything, I would hope you are kidding by responding with some sort of disbelief. Instead of fighting me on these things, you should let me show you the way.