The Firmament

[Job 33:6]

Bubble? Would you be willing to admit that that is not what we read, but is how you interpret it, and see it in your mind?


King James Bible
Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.

New King James Version
Thick clouds cover Him, so that He cannot see, And He walks above the circle of heaven.’

...and that's not figurative language, like the pillars supporting the earth, right?
How about Isaiah 19:1, or Psalm 104:3?
I think it was David that sang, that God came riding on a cherub. Psalm 18:10

I can only leave it to each person, to understand the scriptures in the light of what is expressed in scriptures.
If you take the Bible literally at what it says, and that's what you want to do, then I accept that.

I believe however, as jesus said, the truth is not for everyone, and only those having eyes will see.
One of the things I have come to appreciate about the Bible, is its harmony, and when one part conflicts with what we claim it is saying, it's time to adjust what we believe.

God ids not in the clouds, but the scriptures say he is in the highest heavens.
He has no feet, resting on a pavement like the gods of the nations, that are no gods, but rather, demonic depictions.
I understand that figurative language, and visions, which are not actual depictions, but a representation, do not paint a literal picture.

If that however, is how you take the scriptures, and I will end on this note... how you interpret the scriptures, based on your beliefs, I will leave you to that.

However, it was nice talking with you.
As I said, if I do feel like arguing, I might start that thread on Sheol, and the underworld, but it won't be a long argument... I hope.


Okay. Whatever you say.

More on Psalm 104:

Psalm 104:2, 5-6, 9 ESV
[2] covering yourself with light as with a garment, stretching out the heavens like a tent.
[5] He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved. [6] You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains.
[9] You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth.

All you have to do is read it, and you'll see.

The heavens are stretched out "like a tent".

I'm not sure if you enjoy camping or not. But you set it up like a bowl, or an umbrella, and the tent protects you from things like rain.

Then the passage continues, "you set a boundary that they may not pass".

Psalm 104:5 ESV
[5] He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.

Do you see?

This is like ancient Israelite cosmology 101.

And the psalmist is speaking of real events. He's talking about things like the creation of heaven and earth.

But this language and description of real events is clothed in literary concepts that are of an ancient near east cosmology and cultural context.

 

[Job 33:6]

Psalm 18 @CoreyD

Psalms 18:2 NET
[2] The Lord is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer. My God is my rocky summit where I take shelter, my shield, the horn that saves me, and my refuge.

Right as the Psalm opens up, we see some context moving in. The "horn" that saves me. God, of course, isn't a horn. But we can understand that the psalmist is speaking figuratively.

Psalms 18:2 NET
[2] The Lord is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer. My God is my rocky summit where I take shelter, my shield, the horn that saves me, and my refuge.

Here, we see God being described as a rocky summit and a shield. That's figurative.

Yes, these are true concepts based on real events, but it is still figurative.

Psalms 18:4-5 NET
[4] The waves of death engulfed me, and the currents of chaos overwhelmed me. [5] The ropes of Sheol tightened around me, the snares of death trapped me.

We've already covered this. These concepts, waves, and currents, are related to water and figurative language around the dangers of the sea, which were described a bit in the past posts.

Psalms 18:7 NET
[7] The earth heaved and shook; the roots of the mountains trembled because he was angry.

This isn't about geology. It's not talking about isostatic pressure or gravitational potential energy of mountains, or anything like that. It describes the roots of mountains that serve as the foundation of the earth. It is figurative. Though it's again describing real events of God's wrath against His enemies.

Psalms 18:10 NET
[10] He mounted a winged angel and flew; he glided on the wings of the wind. This could be drawn from a Canaanite polemic relating to Baal rising on the clouds. It could relate to something like the book of Ezekiel in which Gods chariot are pulled by cherubim.

Why God would ride an angel, I don't know. But, commonly, God in the Old Testament is described in stormy warrior-like language. The cherub could be a poetic reference to storm clouds etc. this Psalm is highly poetic in nature, so it's difficult to say what should be taken literally or how literally, angelic warriors or what is figurative and representative of storm clouds. This could also be depicting something similar to the cherub pulled throne chariot of Ezekiel.

Regardless of how we take this imagery, be it literal or figurative or some combination of the two, it depicts God's wrath and amazing power. What Gods enemies experienced would have been terrifying.

Psalms 18:15-16 NET
[15] The depths of the sea were exposed; the inner regions of the world were uncovered by your battle cry, Lord, by the powerful breath from your nose. [16] He reached down from above and took hold of me; he pulled me from the surging water.

Here it is again. More chaos waters. And God is defeating this chaos. This is a common concept of ancient Near East cosmology.

Again, the sea is a force of chaos and destruction and death and...etc.

And God sets up boundaries to hold it back, the firmament. But you'll also see many cases in the Bible where God is smiting the sea and all beings of the sea.

Like in Daniel. The monsters rise out of the sea with all their weird heads and horns and strange animal hybrid bodies. And the God of Old, white hair and white robe, He opens the books and the ancient of days destroys his foes.

These are events. Real historical events. But they're described through the lens of an ancient Israelite culture and a lot of poetry. This Psalm in particular is heavily poetic.

It's about God defeating enemies that are threatening the psalmist in some fashion.

Psalms 18:28, 31-33, 35, 37, 42-43, 47-48 NET
[28] Indeed, you are my lamp, Lord. My God illuminates the darkness around me.
[31] Indeed, who is God besides the Lord? Who is a protector besides our God? [32] The one true God gives me strength; he removes the obstacles in my way. [33] He gives me the agility of a deer; he enables me to negotiate the rugged terrain.
[35] You give me your protective shield; your right hand supports me; your willingness to help enables me to prevail.
[37] I chase my enemies and catch them; I do not turn back until I wipe them out.
[42] I grind them as fine windblown dust; I beat them underfoot like clay in the streets. [43] You rescue me from a hostile army; you make me a leader of nations; people over whom I had no authority are now my subjects.
[47] The one true God completely vindicates me; he makes nations submit to me. [48] He delivers me from my enemies; you snatch me away from those who attack me; you rescue me from violent men.

There is lots of figurative text remaining here. But we get what the psalmist is trying to say.

Overall, id say that this Psalm very clearly contains a variety of common ancient Near East cultural concepts and figurative language. Did God literally take on human form and ride a cherubim guardian down into a battle zone? I could go either way on that particular verse. God could ride an angel. It appears to be describing God, accompanied by his most fearsome warriors, the cherubim, entering battle. It could relate to Ezekiel cherubim chariot. I don't really have an opinion on how literally to take the specific details of it, but I'd lean more toward it being more historical than figurative for this particular verse.

Some might also say that the language in which God "rides on clouds" originates from literature like the Baal cycle or other writings of the Canaanites. This could be a fair interpretation too, that perhaps the text is used in a sort of polemic against the religion of the Canaanites. In this interpretation, the text could be figurative and more theological in nature, describing God as the one true God over Baal (the Canaanite storm god that was a rider of storm clouds).

 

[CoreyD]

Also, if you check the Hebrew on Genesis 1:20, and I can help you to do this if you would like, but you'll notice that it says that birds fly across the face or in front of the face of the firmament of the sky. Not "in" or inside it. But it doesn't matter. Birds could still fly within a balloon.

Genesis 1:20 NRSV
[20] And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky.”

So it doesn't really matter how you translate it, it can work a few different ways with the text.

Like you could imagine a bird flying inside a balloon with the edges of the balloon holding back the waters that were parted.

If you really believe you can help me, why not start with firmament, and then the Hebrew word al:.
However, we went past this post, as well as this post, which both contained this information:

They are not in the Bible,​

They are in the interpretations of the Bible, and I showed one example of this.​

Firmament​

"From the Vulgate firmamentum, which is used as the translation" "of the Hebrew raki'a. This word means simply "expansion." It" denotes the space or expanse like an arch appearing immediately above us. They who rendered raki'a by firmamentum regarded it as a solid body. The language of Scripture is not scientific but "popular, and hence we read of the sun rising and setting, and" also here the use of this particular word. It is plain that it was used to denote solidity as well as expansion. It formed a division between the waters above and the waters below (Gen. 1:7). The raki'a supported the upper reservoir (Ps. 148:4). It "was the support also of the heavenly bodies (Gen. 1:14), and is" "spoken of as having "windows" and "doors" (Gen. 7:11; Isa." 24:18; Mal. 3:10) through which the rain and snow might descend.​

However, I only recal getting an argument. Nothing on the Hebrew.
So, what help do you think you can give on Hebrew?

It's not what I say. It's what the Bible says:

Daniel 4:20 NRSV
[20] The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,



You're still thinking of the Bible as if it is a 21st century science textbook, rather than thinking of it through the lens of an ancient near East context and cosmology.

What... are you really interpreting "the end of the whole earth" to mean what?
Your answer will help me see what you are trying to describe, because when you say you believe the earth is a sphere, but yet you have a flat earth concept, I get this impression:

Only, the bottom half is more rounded.
Is that your vision?

In any case, that is your interpretation, It's not the Bible.
Did you know...
the ends of the earth

noun phrase​

: the most remote places in the world - used figuratively to suggest no limit to an effort​

He would go to the ends of the earth to please her.​

We will search the ends of the earth if we have to.​

Yes, as you admitted, and I will keep reminding you, you interpret the text, based on your beliefs, and therefore,you come to conclusions that are really, your own ideas.
Daniel is not in any way describing the features of the earth.

Let's see what your source says about katachthonios:

Definition: Under the earth, subterranean
Meaning: under the earth, subterranean, infernal.

Word Origin: From the Greek preposition "κατά" (kata, meaning "down") and "χθών" (chthōn, meaning "earth" or "ground").

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: While there is no direct Hebrew equivalent for "katachthonios," the concept of the underworld or Sheol is often represented by the Hebrew word "שְׁאוֹל" (Sheol, Strong's H7585), which refers to the abode of the dead.

Ah yes, thank you!

Um... J. The quote below is not to be taken as a fact. It's a commentary. Hence, a stated view, or opinion.

While there is no direct Hebrew equivalent for "katachthonios," the concept of the underworld or Sheol is often represented by the Hebrew word "שְׁאוֹל" (Sheol, Strong's H7585), which refers to the abode of the dead.

I understand why you are happy with it though.
However, please see Sheol, and underworld, again, if you have forgotten.

So, do you disagree that according to Jesus, and the apostle Paul, those in the earth, will be raised up, and they will bend their knees to the king?

And yes, the earth being revealed in the midst of the waters is precisely an aspect of what I am describing.

I'm not following you.
You said this before, but what does this have to do with the passages of scripture, in Genesis 1:1-10?

For someone who denies the existence of an underworld in the old testament, you seem to keep sharing resources that reference just that.

I don't mind the commentaries in the sources I use.

One need to be able to tell the difference between a comment, and a definition.
If they cannot do that, then I will point it out to them, and use a reference that gives the facts about the concept - which Wikipedia does.

If the person wants to believe the concepts, that are based on interpretation, that's okay.
In your case, I can thoroughly understand why, since you have admitted that your interpretations are based on your beliefs.

If a person is willing to admit that, it's not surprising, they are willing to take various interpretations as facts.

Your words, friend.

My words?
What are my words?

Let's see what else you've said...

Sure. I don't mind either way.


I would say that most old testament scholars acknowledge an underworld in the old testament. I don't know what scholars you read, but I have a long list of scholars that I can share that have writings on the topic of Israelite cosmology, including texts on the underworld sheol.

I must have missed it.
Where do you find the Hebrews concept of an underworld, in this list?

Spirits under the earth where sheol is hungry for men, where God's anger burns and where spirits of the rephaim are waiting to greet newcomers, that sounds like an underworld to me.

Samuel's spirit being brought up from under the earth. It's not like his spirit came out of the sky or out of the ocean or something. He came from "down there" where spirits are.

That's all it is. It's not like there is a castle down there or anything like that. It's just a place under the earth where spirits dwell.

But I'm ok moving on from this. Ill keep an eye out if you decide to continue.

You compelled me. So here is a thread for you, if you are interested.

Ive states that indeed, it is figurative language. You've shared the very same verse, and you're asking me if it's not figurative?

This is often translated as "dome" or "expanse.

It's basically like a bubble. Or a tent or umbrella that holds up the waters above.

Or a balloon is a decent analogy.

If you could imagine camping, and you open up a tent, like an upside down bowl that protects you.

And yes, it is what scripture describes. And I gave a few examples in my prior post where sometimes it's simply referred to as a "dome".

Or sometimes you'll see it translated as "vault" or "vaulted dome" depending on if you're using the NIV, NASB, NRSV, or CEB etc.

Do you know when it is translated "dome"?
When translators use their own interpretation, and decide, based on their own ideas, that this is correct.
On this page, we find dome here:
Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Near Eastern cosmology, the concept of a circular earth or heavens was common. The Hebrews, like their neighbors, understood the world in terms of a flat disc with a dome-like sky above. The use of "chug" in the Hebrew Bible reflects this understanding, while also highlighting the sovereignty and creative power of God, who establishes the boundaries of the earth and the heavens.

That is the opinion of the authors.
However, their opinion does not in any way, reflect the Hebrew words, or the Hebrew text.
chug: Circle, circuit, compass

The dome language is more phenomenological. If you go outside and you look up, the sky looks kind of like a dome. It's blue above, the waters above. And that blue continues down to the horizon, on all sides. Like a tent.

The sky does not look "kind of like a dome" to me.
I believe sometimes, what we imagine, is based on our own ideas... what's in our head.
Do you think this happens to people?

And pillars under the earth, that's just more cosmology language.

When I read Job 9:5-12, I see Job describing physical aspects in a very poetic way.
One would need to be able to grasp the point Job is making.

Isaiah 19:1 ESV
[1] An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

I'm not sure what cosmology you're referencing here. But yes it does sound figurative with hearts melting.

Psalm 104:3 ESV
[3] He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters; he makes the clouds his chariot; he rides on the wings of the wind;

Yes, definitely figurative here. Psalm 104 is fantastic by the way. One of the best psalms. But God doesn't literally have chambers resting on a sky ocean. That's cosmology of the ancient near east.

Yes, these are figurative. But the point here is that these figurative depictions, depict an ancient Israelite cosmology. That's what the firmament is. It's essentially a solid dome in the sky.

The expanse described in the Bible, is not a solid dome.
People believe that, including yourself, but this idea is based on the belief that you stated, and the guy in the video stated, and that is also reflected in these words:
Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Near Eastern cosmology, the concept of a circular earth or heavens was common. The Hebrews, like their neighbors, understood the world in terms of a flat disc with a dome-like sky above. The use of "chug" in the Hebrew Bible reflects this understanding, while also highlighting the sovereignty and creative power of God, who establishes the boundaries of the earth and the heavens.

If your belief about this, hinges on Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Near Eastern cosmology, I don't think the Bible really factors in here.
I believe that the Bible is foremost, the means by which understanding it contents accurately, is achieved. Timothy 3:16, 17

The Bible itself does not focus on the physical shape, position, age, or other physical features of the earth, but various interpretations are presented for these.
To claim that these interpretations are facts, would not be correct.
I started this thread to ask questions so as to get a better understanding of the flat earther's view.
Some of those questions were left unanswered.
I might repost those questions, and see if anyone can answer them.

Thank you for sharing your view.

 

[CoreyD]

More on Psalm 104:

Psalm 104:2, 5-6, 9 ESV
[2] covering yourself with light as with a garment, stretching out the heavens like a tent.
[5] He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved. [6] You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains.
[9] You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth.

All you have to do is read it, and you'll see.

The heavens are stretched out "like a tent".

I'm not sure if you enjoy camping or not. But you set it up like a bowl, or an umbrella, and the tent protects you from things like rain.

Then the passage continues, "you set a boundary that they may not pass".

Psalm 104:5 ESV
[5] He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.

Do you see?

This is like ancient Israelite cosmology 101.

And the psalmist is speaking of real events. He's talking about things like the creation of heaven and earth.

But this language and description of real events is clothed in literary concepts that are of an ancient near east cosmology and cultural context.

Psalm 18 @CoreyD

Psalms 18:2 NET
[2] The Lord is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer. My God is my rocky summit where I take shelter, my shield, the horn that saves me, and my refuge.

Right as the Psalm opens up, we see some context moving in. The "horn" that saves me. God, of course, isn't a horn. But we can understand that the psalmist is speaking figuratively.

Psalms 18:2 NET
[2] The Lord is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer. My God is my rocky summit where I take shelter, my shield, the horn that saves me, and my refuge.

Here, we see God being described as a rocky summit and a shield. That's figurative.

Yes, these are true concepts based on real events, but it is still figurative.

Psalms 18:4-5 NET
[4] The waves of death engulfed me, and the currents of chaos overwhelmed me. [5] The ropes of Sheol tightened around me, the snares of death trapped me.

We've already covered this. These concepts, waves, and currents, are related to water and figurative language around the dangers of the sea, which were described a bit in the past posts.

Psalms 18:7 NET
[7] The earth heaved and shook; the roots of the mountains trembled because he was angry.

This isn't about geology. It's not talking about isostatic pressure or gravitational potential energy of mountains, or anything like that. It describes the roots of mountains that serve as the foundation of the earth. It is figurative. Though it's again describing real events of God's wrath against His enemies.

Psalms 18:10 NET
[10] He mounted a winged angel and flew; he glided on the wings of the wind. This could be drawn from a Canaanite polemic relating to Baal rising on the clouds. It could relate to something like the book of Ezekiel in which Gods chariot are pulled by cherubim.

Why God would ride an angel, I don't know. But, commonly, God in the Old Testament is described in stormy warrior-like language. The cherub could be a poetic reference to storm clouds etc. this Psalm is highly poetic in nature, so it's difficult to say what should be taken literally or how literally, angelic warriors or what is figurative and representative of storm clouds. This could also be depicting something similar to the cherub pulled throne chariot of Ezekiel.

Regardless of how we take this imagery, be it literal or figurative or some combination of the two, it depicts God's wrath and amazing power. What Gods enemies experienced would have been terrifying.

Psalms 18:15-16 NET
[15] The depths of the sea were exposed; the inner regions of the world were uncovered by your battle cry, Lord, by the powerful breath from your nose. [16] He reached down from above and took hold of me; he pulled me from the surging water.

Here it is again. More chaos waters. And God is defeating this chaos. This is a common concept of ancient Near East cosmology.

Again, the sea is a force of chaos and destruction and death and...etc.

And God sets up boundaries to hold it back, the firmament. But you'll also see many cases in the Bible where God is smiting the sea and all beings of the sea.

Like in Daniel. The monsters rise out of the sea with all their weird heads and horns and strange animal hybrid bodies. And the God of Old, white hair and white robe, He opens the books and the ancient of days destroys his foes.

These are events. Real historical events. But they're described through the lens of an ancient Israelite culture and a lot of poetry. This Psalm in particular is heavily poetic.

It's about God defeating enemies that are threatening the psalmist in some fashion.

Psalms 18:28, 31-33, 35, 37, 42-43, 47-48 NET
[28] Indeed, you are my lamp, Lord. My God illuminates the darkness around me.
[31] Indeed, who is God besides the Lord? Who is a protector besides our God? [32] The one true God gives me strength; he removes the obstacles in my way. [33] He gives me the agility of a deer; he enables me to negotiate the rugged terrain.
[35] You give me your protective shield; your right hand supports me; your willingness to help enables me to prevail.
[37] I chase my enemies and catch them; I do not turn back until I wipe them out.
[42] I grind them as fine windblown dust; I beat them underfoot like clay in the streets. [43] You rescue me from a hostile army; you make me a leader of nations; people over whom I had no authority are now my subjects.
[47] The one true God completely vindicates me; he makes nations submit to me. [48] He delivers me from my enemies; you snatch me away from those who attack me; you rescue me from violent men.

There is lots of figurative text remaining here. But we get what the psalmist is trying to say.

Overall, id say that this Psalm very clearly contains a variety of common ancient Near East cultural concepts and figurative language. Did God literally take on human form and ride a cherubim guardian down into a battle zone? I could go either way on that particular verse. God could ride an angel. It appears to be describing God, accompanied by his most fearsome warriors, the cherubim, entering battle. It could relate to Ezekiel cherubim chariot. I don't really have an opinion on how literally to take the specific details of it, but I'd lean more toward it being more historical than figurative for this particular verse.

Some might also say that the language in which God "rides on clouds" originates from literature like the Baal cycle or other writings of the Canaanites. This could be a fair interpretation too, that perhaps the text is used in a sort of polemic against the religion of the Canaanites. In this interpretation, the text could be figurative and more theological in nature, describing God as the one true God over Baal (the Canaanite storm god that was a rider of storm clouds).

Do you get after thoughts?

 

[Job 33:6]

This was not an ancient view, but rather, an interpretation of those who were around during the later centuries of the Christian era.
It is even admitted here:

I've already addressed this. The firmament dates back many centuries before the Vulgate.

This video references a few dozen references on it.
For example:

The tablet of shamash depicts it.

We could find lots of historical references to a dome over the sky. So it's not a modern concept, at all. It's very common in history and in historical writings.

 

[Job 33:6]

If you really believe you can help me, why not start with firmament, and then the Hebrew word al:.
However, we went past this post, as well as this post, which both contained this information:

They are not in the Bible,​

They are in the interpretations of the Bible, and I showed one example of this.​

Firmament​

"From the Vulgate firmamentum, which is used as the translation" "of the Hebrew raki'a. This word means simply "expansion." It" denotes the space or expanse like an arch appearing immediately above us. They who rendered raki'a by firmamentum regarded it as a solid body. The language of Scripture is not scientific but "popular, and hence we read of the sun rising and setting, and" also here the use of this particular word. It is plain that it was used to denote solidity as well as expansion. It formed a division between the waters above and the waters below (Gen. 1:7). The raki'a supported the upper reservoir (Ps. 148:4). It "was the support also of the heavenly bodies (Gen. 1:14), and is" "spoken of as having "windows" and "doors" (Gen. 7:11; Isa." 24:18; Mal. 3:10) through which the rain and snow might descend.​

However, I only recal getting an argument. Nothing on the Hebrew.
So, what help do you think you can give on Hebrew?

I'll just take it a step at a time and won't bombard you with responses.

But one more here, regarding the Hebrew, this is also addressed in a scholarly paper I've provided maybe a few days ago or so, titled "The firmament and the waters above" by Bible scholar Paul Seely. It's essentially that the Hebrew term, raqia, well a few things to note,

The term does have a concept of expansion in it, but that expansion is something akin to expanding or spreading out or stretching metal.

So if you could imagine a blacksmith, they are hitting a sword with a hammer, and they are spreading it out, they are expanding it. But even solid things can expand.

But further, I gave an analogy before that I think is helpful. A tent or a balloon, these are things that expand, but they too are solid.

Or I gave an analogy of the splitting of the red sea. The space between the red sea expanded. But what held the red sea apart, were boundaries of God's power. In the sense that, though invisible, God set a boundary that held back physical objects. Water.

The raqia is the same thing as God splitting the red sea. It's just, in the sky. And instead of the waters of the red sea, you have the waters above. Now I'll dig up that Paul Seely reference for you.

 

[Job 33:6]

its verbal cognate raqa' ("stamp, beat, spread out") is
used of hammering metal into thin plates (Exod 39:3) and hence suggests that a raqiaà was
something hammered out, an idea consonant with both Egyptian and Sumerian views of the sky.
In addition a Phoenician cognate (mrq') means "plating."(46)
Conservative writers usually try to avoid this implication of solidity by stressing the
meaning "expanse" or "thinness" for raqiaà and pointing out that Isaiah also speaks of the sky as
a curtain or tent (Isa 40:22) or scroll (Isa 34:4). But in Isa 42:5 the earth is called an "expanse"
(raqiaà) without in any way implying that it is not solid. So even if the raqiaà in Genesis is
translated "expanse," this in no way implies that it is not solid. And even though gold can be
beaten very thin, it never loses its solidity.
-Seely's article

Strongs lexicon:

Strong's Hebrew: 7554. רָקַע (raqa) -- To spread out, to beat, to stamp, to stretch

Usage: The Hebrew verb "raqa" primarily means to spread out or to beat out. It is often used in the context of creating something by hammering or spreading, such as metalwork or the expanse of the heavens. The term conveys the idea of expansion and formation through a deliberate and forceful action.

Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Near Eastern cultures, metalworking was a significant craft, and the process of hammering metal into thin sheets was a common practice. This imagery is reflected in the use of "raqa" to describe the creation of the firmament in Genesis, where God spreads out the heavens like a canopy. The concept of "raqa" also aligns with the ancient understanding of the sky as a solid dome or expanse.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to beat, stamp, beat out, spread out
NASB Translation
beaten (1), hammered (2), plates (1), spread (3), spreading (1), stamp (1), stamped (2).

And actually if you look the instances in which the term is used in the Bible, it's root word as well, not only are they described with solid adjectives like pavement and crystal or sapphire stone, but the root word in particular is commonly used of expanding metal plates by beating them out, like a blacksmith.

So it's basically an expanse, but this expanse has a solid nature to it. So some Bible translations say expanse, some say some, some say vault, some say vaulted dome etc. you get a lot of different Bible translations.

But, the point is that, there is something about it that serves as a boundary against the waters. And I think that the best way to think about it is to imagine God parting the red sea and Moses walking through it. That's what the raqia is like. It's the same thing.

It's invisible, yet solid. It's supernatural. It is spread out.

And that's why the Genesis flood has so many parallels with the Exodus. For example, Moses is delivered from Egypt in an ark. Baby Moses rides a tebah down the nile, it's the same Hebrew word for Noah's ark.

And not only that, but the Arc of Moses is made of the same materials as the ark of Noah if you look closely. It's bitumen covered papyrus woven ark, tebah. A sanctuary.

And God's raqia opens up, Genesis 7:11 and crushes God's enemies (the nephilim and all that), and in Exodus, it's pharaoh that is crushed. And Moses starts fresh with the Israelites. Noah starts fresh as well.

There's a lot more to this, but that's what it is. That's the theology interwoven with cosmology.

And that's, in my opinion, one of the best ways to think about the raqia. And what the term is or means. Gods Hand, serving as a boundary, a tent, a dome, it's protecting us. Gods hand protects us. God delivers us. He saves us.

But it's in an ancient near east cosmological perspective where, the blue sky is/are the waters of chaos. And God is protecting us from that. But he can release it if He wants to. He can judge us and can, you know, He can release his protection and can let us be destroyed. But He promised not to do that again after the flood.

It's not science. This isn't about astronomy or climate or anything like that. It's theology.

A lot of people have a hard time with this because, they read "the waters above" and they think in a 21st century context where they look at the sky and they're trying to figure out where the water is. Or where the dome is.

But, you have to step out of that pattern of modern thinking. And you have to look at the sky as if you were an ancient person. They don't have airplanes or satellites. They don't have rocket ships, they at this stage had not even ascended the highest mountains. These are places of mystery, they have a supernatural sense to them.

In the Old Testament, you'll often see the stars and angels related to one another. People back then didn't know what stars were, they didn't know that they were giant balls of fire. These are things of wonder, up above, things of be and of a supernatural nature.

The old testament is something that, you can't charge at it as though it is a science textbook. You have to think of it in more theological ways. It's a theology textbook.

 

[Job 33:6]

That's not what I said.
Try to follow what I am saying.

Genesis 10:1-11:10

• Egyptians are descendants of Pathrusim.
• Pathrusim is a descendant of Mizraim.
• Mizraim is a son of Ham.
• Shortly after the birth Pathrusim, when the earth was one language... before Egyptians existed, the people engaged in building a ziggurat, to engage in false worship, and God scattered them.
• From there we get the various language groups - the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, the Jebusites (Genesis 15:19-21), who formed their own worship to various gods.

The people that worshipped other gods, were manipulated by demons, and out of these groups, came the Egyptians. Ezekiel 29:14
So, the Egyptians were born with false beliefs, worshipping different gods, and demons. Deuteronomy 32:17; Psalm 106:37

I went slowly, and step by step, so I hope you were able to follow, and it's clear now.


Exactly!
Why do they share some details?
The original is not evil, or twisted. Again, please try to follow.

For example, the flood occured, and was not recorded, until centuries later, but it was known, and the account was passed on, and guess what? It was altered, misrepresented, and even applied to other god, with additions, subtractions, and complete makeovers, so as to fit the ideas attributed to false worship.
List of flood legends
This is how Satan and the demon twist the truth.

In other words, what Shem, Ham, and Japheth recounted, is the original - the truth.
When the people at Babel - meaning confusion, scattered, they took the account with them, and due to their false worship of the gods, and demons, the truth became altered, with additions, subtractions, and complete makeovers, so as to fit the ideas attributed to false worship.

Of course, some details remain.
For one thing, Satan is no fool. The Bible describes him as very cunning - a master deceiver.
A little poison in your lemonade will still kill you. Lies mixed with the truth will still mislead you.
That's why there are thousands of religions with hundreds of variations of "the truth", because while there can only be one truth, they can be billions of lies.

I really hope you got that.

I believe that this is the other item you have asked me to address.

I don't see this position as being in conflict with recognition of ancient cosmology in Genesis.

 

[Job 33:6]

If you really believe you can help me, why not start with firmament, and then the Hebrew word al:.
However, we went past this post, as well as this post, which both contained this information:

They are not in the Bible,​

They are in the interpretations of the Bible, and I showed one example of this.​

Firmament​

"From the Vulgate firmamentum, which is used as the translation" "of the Hebrew raki'a. This word means simply "expansion." It" denotes the space or expanse like an arch appearing immediately above us. They who rendered raki'a by firmamentum regarded it as a solid body. The language of Scripture is not scientific but "popular, and hence we read of the sun rising and setting, and" also here the use of this particular word. It is plain that it was used to denote solidity as well as expansion. It formed a division between the waters above and the waters below (Gen. 1:7). The raki'a supported the upper reservoir (Ps. 148:4). It "was the support also of the heavenly bodies (Gen. 1:14), and is" "spoken of as having "windows" and "doors" (Gen. 7:11; Isa." 24:18; Mal. 3:10) through which the rain and snow might descend.​

However, I only recal getting an argument. Nothing on the Hebrew.
So, what help do you think you can give on Hebrew?


What... are you really interpreting "the end of the whole earth" to mean what?
Your answer will help me see what you are trying to describe, because when you say you believe the earth is a sphere, but yet you have a flat earth concept, I get this impression:

Only, the bottom half is more rounded.
Is that your vision?

Ah no. Not like this. For example, why is it in space? And why does it have all the different continents? Ancient people didnt know about these things.

The surface of the earth is more like this:

 

[Apple Sky]

Ah no. Not like this. For example, why is it in space? And why does it have all the different continents? Ancient people didnt know about these things.

The surface of the earth is more like this:

How do I know that waters still remain above the firmament ? The Simpson's always predicted what was true.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The sky does not look "kind of like a dome" to me.

I think it must.

Have you ever been to a planetarium? Inside there's a dome, and they project images of the stars (or daylight scenes) on the inside.

And it looks "kind of like the sky", so they can demonstrate certain features of the sky and the stars and planets.

Or do you go to a planetarium and find yourself saying "That doesn't look at all like a night sky!"

 

[Job 33:6]

How do I know that waters still remain above the firmament ? The Simpson's always predicted what was true.

The psalmist, when he praises the waters above the heavens, he explicitly says that God will hold them there, forever and ever.

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

But there are lots of verses about the waters above. It's not something that, after Genesis 7, they just went away. In fact, in Genesis 8:2 the flood gates closed and restrained the waters above. Consider the NASB translation for example. Or the ESV.

 

[Job 33:6]

I think it must.

Have you ever been to a planetarium? Inside there's a dome, and they project images of the stars (or daylight scenes) on the inside.

And it looks "kind of like the sky", so they can demonstrate certain features of the sky and the stars and planets.

Or do you go to a planetarium and find yourself saying "That doesn't look at all like a night sky!"

Thank you!

To add to this. Ya know, anyone who goes outside and looks up, the blue sky comes down to the horizon. Which, naturally looks like a dome.

In fact, it actually is literally dome shaped, if you are in a stationary position on earth and you can't see below the earth and you don't hop in an airplane and fly to the other side.

@CoreyD
The ancient Israelites wouldn't have had airplanes. That's why the Babylonian map of the world terminated at the bitter river, the horizon where the sun sets, at the boundary between light and dark like in the book of job and proverbs.

Proverbs 8:27-29 NASB2020
[27] “When He established the heavens, I was there; When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep, [28] When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, [29] When He set a boundary for the sea So that the water would not violate His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;

Job 26:10 NIV
[10] He marks out the horizon on the face of the waters for a boundary between light and darkness.

 

[Job 33:6]

I must have missed it.
Where do you find the Hebrews concept of an underworld, in this list?

It's listed under "sheol" next to "Jewish mythology".

Sheol (/ˈʃiː.oʊl, -əl/ SHEE-ohl, -⁠uhl; Hebrew: שְׁאוֹל‎ Šəʾōl, Tiberian: Šŏʾōl)[1] in the Hebrew Bible is the underworld place of stillness and darkness which lies after death.[2]

The prophet Isaiah expounds on Sheol to great lengths during some of his sermons, personifying it as possessing an ever-increasing hunger for living men,[13] with a great propensity for the souls of sinners,[14] and where pleas to Yahweh cannot escape. Ezekiel, during his prophecy of Egypt's downfall, describes Egypt metaphorically descending into Sheol as a dead man would, where all the spirits of the dead, as well as other fallen empires, such as Assyria, jeer and mock its fall from might.[15]

Sheol - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It's quite clear.

Isaiah 14:9-11 NIV
[9] The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations. [10] They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us.” [11] All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.

The Bible speaks, particularly in poetic terms, of sheol being an underworld where spirits dwell and can converse with one another.

 

[essentialsaltes]

In any case, that is your interpretation, It's not the Bible.
Did you know...
the ends of the earth
noun phrase: the most remote places in the world - used figuratively

Sure, modern dictionaries say it's figurative language, because we modern people (er, most of us) know the earth doesn't have ends or an edge.

Ancient people (before the Greeks) did not.

Some people insist that only literal readings of the Bible are valid. They (if they're being strict) refuse any figurative language. That path leads inevitably to rejecting evolution and rejecting a spherical earth.

Others do not require literal readings and/or they recognize that the authors were products of the time and place in which they lived. That path leads to allowing the possibility of 'other ways of knowing' to inform them about the shape of the earth and the history of life on earth.

 

[Apple Sky]

The prophet Isaiah expounds on Sheol to great lengths during some of his sermons, personifying it as possessing an ever-increasing hunger for living men,[13] with a great propensity for the souls of sinners,[14] and where pleas to Yahweh cannot escape. Ezekiel, during his prophecy of Egypt's downfall, describes Egypt metaphorically descending into Sheol as a dead man would, where all the spirits of the dead, as well as other fallen empires, such as Assyria, jeer and mock its fall from might.[15]

Sheol - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is interesting - I was only reading about the Witch of Endor last night.

I think Sheol was called Abraham's Bosom & it's where Jesus went after he was crucified to release all the righteous unto Paradise.

 

[Apple Sky]

Some people insist that only literal readings of the Bible are valid. They (if they're being strict) refuse any figurative language. That path leads inevitably to rejecting evolution and rejecting a spherical earth.

This is me, I'm a literal reader

 

[Job 33:6]

This is interesting - I was only reading about the Witch of Endor last night.

I think Sheol was called Abraham's Bosom & it's where Jesus went after he was crucified to release all the righteous unto Paradise.

Yeah interesting parts of scripture, Jesus visiting the imprisoned spirits and the witch resurrecting spirit of Samuel. Parts of the Bible that you never hear about on a Sunday morning but they're very clearly described when you look.

 

[Apple Sky]

Parts of the Bible that you never hear about on a Sunday morning but they're very clearly described when you look.

Another story You'll never hear on a Sunday morning is where Moses murdered the Egyptian

 

[Apple Sky]

Job 26:10 NIV
[10] He marks out the horizon on the face of the waters for a boundary between light and darkness.

Proverbs 8:29
when he assigned to the sea its limit,

so that the waters might not transgress his command,

when he marked out the foundations of the earth,


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Or who shut in the sea with doors

when it burst out from the womb,

Job 38:8