The Firmament

[Job 33:6]

People don't carve golden calves for the sake of worshipping golden calves. They carve golden calves because those statues are the dwelling places of their gods. It's about worshipping gods. Not statues.

Exodus 20:4 ESV
[4] “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

It's like saying, "don't worship any God's, in the highest of highs (heaven above), the earth below, and waters beneath the earth (the lowest of lows).

It's all encompassing.

God is saying, it doesn't matter where. All the way up, in the middle, or all the way down. No matter what level or floor of creation, you are not to worship any other elohim except me.

And one more comment and then I'll leave the sheol topic alone but, like the ark of the covenant in Deuteronomy, God dwells, or God's spirit dwells in that object. And pagan statues, like the golden calf. It wasn't merely a statue. The pagan gods in ancient times, similar to the ark of the covenant, they would come down from heaven (or come up from the underworld or wherever) and they would dwell among their people within those statues.

When God told the Israelites not to make idols of pagan gods, he was not merely telling them not to make statues. But this is an exciting commandment about not worshipping pagan deities. Which is a major issue that the Israelites fail at time and time again in the old testament.

And that's why it says,
Exodus 20:3 ESV
[3] “You shall have no other gods before me.

It's not saying "you shall have no other statues before me". It's not saying "you shall have no other objects like money, before me".

No. This is about pagan deities. God's enemies.

And so when the passage says "heaven above, earth below, and waters below the earth". It's saying that it doesn't matter where that pagan god is. It could be another elohim in the highest reaches of heaven. It could be any elohim of earth below. Or it could be an elohim of anywhere under the earth.

It doesn't matter where. Anywhere and everywhere.

You do not put any other gods before God.

And that's why it's so important not to be confused about fish in the ocean. This is about supernatural warfare. It's about God versus the gods. God versis Baal and Asteroth, Mot, and Ra or whomever.

It's about God of the Israelites being The God. The "top dog" so to speak. And God, in the old testament. He isn't super peaceful Jesus. God the Father lays waste to all His enemies. And anyone who reads the old testament knows this. God destroys and utterly annihilates His enemies. And that includes other pagan deities that challenge Him. Demons and Satan and all of the above.

It's just not about fish. It's a lot bigger than that.

 

[Job 33:6]

The underworld ideas has no place in scripture.
The underworld, also known as the netherworld or hell, is the supernatural world of the dead in various religious traditions and myths, located below the world of the living.
The descent to the underworld has been described as "the single most important myth for Modernist authors"
See the list of underworlds in various religious traditions, with links to corresponding articles... By religion

What in the world are you talking about?

The underworld has no place in scripture?

Whaaaa?

1 Samuel 28:7 ESV
[7] Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a medium at En-dor.”

Samuel 28:10-15 ESV
[10] But Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.” [11] Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” [12] When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” [13] The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” [the word here is elohim, it just means a spirit] [14] He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage. [15] Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”

Isaiah 14:9 NASB1995
[9] Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.

You have to stop arguing against me here. Just read your Bible.

Of course there is an underworld in the old testament.

No need to see this as "mythology".

Think of it as "ancient cosmology".

That's right..it's the topic we've been talking about about the whole time. Yes, it is true that if you take a shovel and dig, you'll never find anything.

But you have to think like an ancient Israelite. It's like angels being in the sky. We have airplanes now, we know there's nothing up there. But this is just how they described the world. And yes, this is absolutely in the Bible.

And Samuel didn't just come up out of the grave. Saul and the medium didn't go to his grave. They just called him, and he came up from the earth.

He was underneath, somewhere, down there. Where there are spirits.

1 Samuel 2:6 NASB1995
[6] The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Of course there is an underworld in the old testament. Suggesting that there is no underworld in the old testament, is like arguing that there is no heaven. It just doesn't make sense.


Jonah 2:2-6 ESV
[2] saying, “I called out to the Lord, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice. [3] For you cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded me; all your waves and your billows passed over me. [4] Then I said, ‘I am driven away from your sight; yet I shall again look upon your holy temple.’ [5] The waters closed in over me to take my life; the deep surrounded me; weeds were wrapped about my head [6] at the roots of the mountains. I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever; yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God.

Here it is, look closely.

The land whose bars closed upon me forever. The Pit.

Isaiah 38:18 ESV
[18] For Sheol does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness.

Thats sheol. Jonah even says it. He calls out from the belly of sheol.

This is poetry, yes. But it's poetry about an underworld.

 

[Apple Sky]

What in the world are you talking about?

The underworld has no place in scripture?

Whaaaa?

1 Samuel 28:7 ESV
[7] Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a medium at En-dor.”

Samuel 28:10-15 ESV
[10] But Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.” [11] Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” [12] When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” [13] The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” [the word here is elohim, it just means a spirit] [14] He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage. [15] Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”

Isaiah 14:9 NASB1995
[9] Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.

You have to stop arguing against me here. Just read your Bible.

Of course there is an underworld in the old testament.

No need to see this as "mythology".

Think of it as "ancient cosmology".

That's right..it's the topic we've been talking about about the whole time. Yes, it is true that if you take a shovel and dig, you'll never find anything.

But you have to think like an ancient Israelite. It's like angels being in the sky. We have airplanes now, we know there's nothing up there. But this is just how they described the world. And yes, this is absolutely in the Bible.

And Samuel didn't just come up out of the grave. Saul and the medium didn't go to his grave. They just called him, and he came up from the earth.

He was underneath, somewhere, down there. Where there are spirits.

1 Samuel 2:6 NASB1995
[6] The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Of course there is an underworld in the old testament. Suggesting that there is no underworld in the old testament, is like arguing that there is no heaven. It just doesn't make sense.


Jonah 2:2-6 ESV
[2] saying, “I called out to the Lord, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice. [3] For you cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded me; all your waves and your billows passed over me. [4] Then I said, ‘I am driven away from your sight; yet I shall again look upon your holy temple.’ [5] The waters closed in over me to take my life; the deep surrounded me; weeds were wrapped about my head [6] at the roots of the mountains. I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever; yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God.

Here it is, look closely.

The land whose bars closed upon me forever. The Pit.

Isaiah 38:18 ESV
[18] For Sheol does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness.

Thats sheol. Jonah even says it. He calls out from the belly of sheol.

This is poetry, yes. But it's poetry about an underworld.

Yes I fully agree again 100%

 

[Job 33:6]

Here we go:

Therefore Sheol has enlarged its appetite and opened its mouth beyond measure, and the nobility of Jerusalem and her multitude will go down, her revelers and he who exults in her.
Isaiah 5:14

Sheol has an appetite for men.

I'm sorry but, even if we call this poetry or figurative or metaphorical.

Make no mistake about it, these passages are about more than just a grave.

Spirits are down there. Spirits come up out of there.

Ezekiel 32:20-21 NIV
[20] They will fall among those killed by the sword. The sword is drawn; let her be dragged off with all her hordes. [21] From within the realm of the dead the mighty leaders will say of Egypt and her allies, ‘They have come down and they lie with the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword.’

Spirits are down there. They welcome people.

Deuteronomy 32:21-22 ESV
[21] They have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are no people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. [22] For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

God's anger burns down there.

Numbers 16:31-33 ESV
[31] And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart. [32] And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods. [33] So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

People can fall into it, alive.

Yes it's poetry. But it very much is in the Bible. And sometimes it is clearly described as more than a mere grave.

Ok, I'll drop this topic. To be honest, I don't think anyone who honestly reads the Bible can deny that the old testament includes an underworld. Samuel came from somewhere when the medium performed necromancy and brought his spirit up from beneath the earth.

Alright, I'm letting this topic go now. Unless anyone would like to continue on the underworld.

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes I fully agree again 100%

Thanks! I appreciate it! I think it's an important topic. I'm perfectly happy calling it figurative language. But, it's definitely there.

Nobody ever read about Samuels spirit being raised from the earth and assumed that Samuel came from heaven somewhere. He didn't come from above, he came from below.

"Well they never told me that in Sunday school".

Well Toto, we aren't in Kansas anymore. This is the old testament.

 

[Apple Sky]

Nobody ever read about Samuels spirit being raised from the earth and assumed that Samuel came from heaven somewhere. He didn't come from above, he came from below.

I have & it's true.

Here is a supposed map or the underworld which IMO is genuine with all the features a real map would have,

https://static-prod.lib.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/thematic-maps/theme-maps/homann-map-cockaigne-1720.jpg

I also reckon this is where Voynich manuscript pictures it's images from.

 

[Job 33:6]

I have & it's true.

Here is a supposed map or the underworld which IMO is genuine with all the features a real map would have,

https://static-prod.lib.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/thematic-maps/theme-maps/homann-map-cockaigne-1720.jpg

I also reckon this is where Voynich manuscript pictures it's images from.

I'm not sure that is go this far with some kind of a map of the place.

But if it could be depicted, the most simple thing would be just as the Bible says. Heaven above. Earth below, and under the earth.

Philippians 2:9-10 ESV
[9] Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, [10] so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Every knee shall bow, including those that have knees that are "under the earth". And it's not talking about groundhogs and worms.

 

[CoreyD]

@CoreyD

Psalm 82:1-2, 6-7 ESV
[1] God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: [2] “How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
[6] I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; [7] nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince.”

Psalm 89:5-7 ESV
[5] Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord, your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones! [6] For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord, [7] a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones, and awesome above all who are around him?

1 Kings 22:19-23 ESV
[19] And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; [20] and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. [21] Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ [22] And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ [23] Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”

These spirit beings, they are throughout the old testament.

And ancient people struggled with the worship of them.

Especially in ancient Egypt.

And when Moses frees the Israelites, they still struggled with this. We can go through the Pentateuch together if you want examples. But the Israelites time and time again, fell to worship of other gods.

And God steps in with the commandments and instructs them not to do this. That's what the passage in Exodus is all about. It's not God telling people not to worship fish.

In Hebrew it explicitly says "elohim" which is the term used for spirit beings such as demons.

Why are you quoting scriptures about men who are judges, ,and thus in high positions, and angels in heaven?

For example, you quoted Psalm 82, which refers to the judges in Israel, and which Jesus himself acknowledged. John 10:34, 35

Then you refer to angel, who are of course godlike, and greater than men, and thus moreso can be referred to as gods.

They aren't gods even if they are godlike - that is, rendering judgment, and exercising authority in a position over people given them by God. 1 Corinthians 8:4-6

Are you trying to make the point, that people worship spirit beings in heaven, through the various idols they make?
If that is your point, I believe everyone familiar with the Bible knows that worship of Satan and his demons is something that has been going on for centuries.
Why, I made that point a couple times in this thread. Here, as well as here, and here.
Are you trying to remind someone of it?

Or is there something else you want to talk about that is off topic from the thread?
Would you prefer to discus a subject other than the Firmament?

 

[CoreyD]

Fine. Sheol is a part of ancient cosmology. But I'm fine with going back to the firmament.

Ah. Great!

It's ancient cosmology. This isn't science. The firmament is described in solid terms in the Bible. It's just phenomenological language used to describe the sky. The passage about gates opening and closing and releasing and restraining water, it's just phenomenological language that describes concepts of a solid nature.

I do not understand what you just said.
What do you mean by "The firmament is described in solid terms in the Bible. It's just phenomenological language used to describe the sky.", and "it's just phenomenological language that describes concepts of a solid nature"?

And yes, waters wouldn't run off of it, because the waters surround it in all directions, infinitely (except maybe upwards where God's kingdom ultimately is).

Okay, so does that mean you see the firmament as a solid structure?
I'm not sure what you are saying.

Do you see the firmament as an expanse of atmosphere, or a glasslike solid structure... or something else?
Can you give a description, or show an image.

Also, do you see it as the world today does, that this water is held to the earth by gravity, so that it does not fall off in all directions, and do you believe in a globe earth that rotates?

A submarine is a good analogy.the waters do not run off of the dome because the dome is in the midst of the waters, like in Genesis. It says that the firmament is in the midst of the waters. It is in the water like a bubble. Submerged.

Are you saying that you believe the earth is submerged in water, and where in Genesis do we find that a so called dome is in the midst of the waters?

Thank you for getting back to the topic.

 

[CoreyD]

@CoreyD

Here is an artifact of the ancient near east that depicts a pagan deity above the firmament. It's known as the tablet of shamash. It's a fine reference point.

View attachment 359171

Or you can consider the Babylonian map of the world, that we talked about before. It's surrounded by waters on all sides. Like a submarine.

Or the unfinished kuduru stone that we talked about before. Again, water above, water below. It's on all sides.

View attachment 359172

Psalm 139:1, 8-10 ESV
[1] O Lord, you have searched me and known me!
[8] If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! [9] If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, [10] even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.

Up above and down below, but look here, the uttermost parts of the sea (north, south, east, and west).

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.

The water is above it.

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

It is below the earth (just like in Exodus).

The heavens are "spread out" and the earth is "spread out". There is water above, and water below.

And the firmament is described in solid terms and it restrains the waters (think about Exodus and how God restrains the red sea). It's like that.

I'm sorry, but my head is about to explode, trying to picture what you are describing.
The first image differs from the second, and I have no idea what you are imagining.

Can you find an image on the internet that closely resembles what you have in mind, or can you give a description, that an AI image generator might be able to create.
I could punch that into an image generator and see what I get.

When you refer to the earth being spread out above the waters, I am lost as to what you are saying, because I don't understand how one can see the earth as a sphere, and at the same time see it as spread out.
I feel a headache coming on.

 

[Job 33:6]

I'm sorry, but my head is about to explode, trying to picture what you are describing.
The first image differs from the second, and I have no idea what you are imagining.

Can you find an image on the internet that closely resembles what you have in mind, or can you give a description, that an AI image generator might be able to create.
I could punch that into an image generator and see what I get.

When you refer to the earth being spread out above the waters, I am lost as to what you are saying, because I don't understand how one can see the earth as a sphere, and at the same time see it as spread out.
I feel a headache coming on.

Just imagine a submarine. Or a Bible that is under water. And at the bottom of the bubble is land. And the roof of the bubble is like a dome.

Like if you went outside on a sunny day and looked up at the blue sky. How would you describe it? Like a bowl upside down covering you like a tent.

 

[CoreyD]

@CoreyD

The easiest way to imagine the firmament, is to think of Moses crossing the red sea.

It seems you have a lot of easy ways to understand. None of which have proved easy.
Could it be, it's easy because it's all in your mind, where I cannot reach.

There is water. And the water is being held back. God is holding that water back, like a flood gate.

And in Noah's flood, God lets the water go. On the evils of the world.

And in Exodus, God lets the water go on pharaoh.

And Noah is delivered.

And Moses is delivered.

You see? And the cosmology is sort of like the earth, the whole earth, being protected by God's hand, against the waters.

That's kind of how it is in the old testament. And so the firmament is oftentimes describes like a solid wall. And it has water on the other side. Like a dome.

The description in Genesis... at least in the Bible I have read, says this:
Genesis 1:1-10

1 Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.​

6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters, to separate the waters from the waters.” 7 So God made the expanse and separated the waters beneath it from the waters above. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning - the second day.​

9 And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, so that the dry land may appear.” And it was so.​

10 God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.​

If you are saying that the waters below - that is, in the watery deep ("oceans") were divided, so that there was an expanse - which God called sky - between the waters below, and the waters above, that I agree is what Genesis does say.
The expanse is the space between those waters from where birds fly, to the edge of space as we know it today.

In Genesis, the earth is not described as resting on the waters. Rather, dry land appears in the midst of the waters, where in time grass grows, and land animals and humans dwell.
The oceans are where sea creatures dwell.

That is Genesis' description, which is different to what you are seeing... even though I haven't got a clear picture yet, of what you are seeing.

And the cosmology isn't perfect. Sometimes God is walking on the dome. It's not consistent. Indeed there are probably different ancient cosmologies within the old testament. But that's basically what it is. See my last post for some artifacts that depict it and verses that talk about where water is.

Where did you read that God is walking on a so called dome?

Philippians 2:9-10 ESV
[9] Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, [10] so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Every knee shall bow, including those that have knees that are "under the earth". And it's not talking about groundhogs and worms.

You are correct. It does not refer to animals, since they do not worship, but refers to persons that are in the earth - those that will come to life.
According to Jesus, and the apostle Paul, those in the earth, will be raised up, and yes, many a knee will bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth (katachthonios: Under the earth, subterranean).

I'm sorry you interpret that as being under the spherical earth.
It's not saying that.
Daniel 12:2

And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.​

 

[Job 33:6]

It seems you have a lot of easy ways to understand. None of which have proved easy.
Could it be, it's easy because it's all in your mind, where I cannot reach.


The description in Genesis... at least in the Bible I have read, says this:
Genesis 1:1-10

1 Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.​

6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters, to separate the waters from the waters.” 7 So God made the expanse and separated the waters beneath it from the waters above. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning - the second day.​

9 And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, so that the dry land may appear.” And it was so.​

10 God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.​

If you are saying that the waters below - that is, in the watery deep ("oceans") were divided, so that there was an expanse - which God called sky - between the waters below, and the waters above, that I agree is what Genesis does say.
The expanse is the space between those waters from where birds fly, to the edge of space as we know it today.

It's fair to say that, at first, this is always difficulty for people to wrap their heads around. Especially if you've imagined something else before hand. And that's ok.

And yes that's right. It's like an ocean. And then in that ocean, like a bubble forms and separates the waters above from the waters below.

Or, here is a good analogy too. A balloon. Imagine you put a balloon in a bathtub, and you blow it up.

In Genesis, the earth is not described as resting on the waters. Rather, dry land appears in the midst of the waters, where in time grass grows, and land animals and humans dwell.
The oceans are where sea creatures dwell.

Yea. The figurative language describes the earth not floating, but on pillars. Like if you went camping and you opened up an umbrella over your head. And that's what holds the expanse steady.

That is Genesis' description, which is different to what you are seeing... even though I haven't got a clear picture yet, of what you are seeing.


Where did you read that God is walking on a so called dome?

Examples:

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14 NRSV

Amos 9:6 NASB1995
[6] The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

You are correct. It does not refer to animals, since they do not worship, but refers to persons that are in the earth - those that will come to life.
According to Jesus, and the apostle Paul, those in the earth, will be raised up, and yes, many a knee will bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth (katachthonios: Under the earth, subterranean).

I'm sorry you interpret that as being under the spherical earth.
It's not saying that.
Daniel 12:2

And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.​

Daniels earth is not depicted as a sphere in its cosmology

 

[CoreyD]

@Job 33:6 I already went through that Sheol topic, and have already pointed out time and again, that your interpretation of scripture does not make scripture become what you interpret them as, so quoting scriptures and giving your ideas will not make this discussion end.
It will only continue, with you repeating the same thing over and over, as if that will change anything.

If you want to discuss Sheol, the underworld, or any other topic, start a new thread.
I just might start one on the erroneous view of the so called spirit of Samuel, if I feel inclined to argue with you for hours, without getting anywhere, but I'll have to think about that.

In the meantime, this thread is about the firmament.
Even scholars who aren't very favorable to the Bible, do not list the Israelites, or Hebrews among those promoting the Underworld myth.

However, start a new thread, if you feel the Underworld is actually in scripture.
None of the scriptures you referenced has anything to do with a so called underworld.

 

[CoreyD]

It's fair to say that, at first, this is always difficulty for people to wrap their heads around. Especially if you've imagined something else before hand. And that's ok.

And yes that's right. It's like an ocean. And then in that ocean, like a bubble forms and separates the waters above from the waters below.

Or, here is a good analogy too. A balloon. Imagine you put a balloon in a bathtub, and you blow it up.

Bubble? Would you be willing to admit that that is not what we read, but is how you interpret it, and see it in your mind?

Yea. The figurative language describes the earth not floating, but on pillars. Like if you went camping and you opened up an umbrella over your head. And that's what holds the expanse steady.

Examples:

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14 NRSV

King James Bible
Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.

New King James Version
Thick clouds cover Him, so that He cannot see, And He walks above the circle of heaven.’

...and that's not figurative language, like the pillars supporting the earth, right?
How about Isaiah 19:1, or Psalm 104:3?
I think it was David that sang, that God came riding on a cherub. Psalm 18:10

I can only leave it to each person, to understand the scriptures in the light of what is expressed in scriptures.
If you take the Bible literally at what it says, and that's what you want to do, then I accept that.

I believe however, as jesus said, the truth is not for everyone, and only those having eyes will see.
One of the things I have come to appreciate about the Bible, is its harmony, and when one part conflicts with what we claim it is saying, it's time to adjust what we believe.

God ids not in the clouds, but the scriptures say he is in the highest heavens.
He has no feet, resting on a pavement like the gods of the nations, that are no gods, but rather, demonic depictions.
I understand that figurative language, and visions, which are not actual depictions, but a representation, do not paint a literal picture.

If that however, is how you take the scriptures, and I will end on this note... how you interpret the scriptures, based on your beliefs, I will leave you to that.

However, it was nice talking with you.
As I said, if I do feel like arguing, I might start that thread on Sheol, and the underworld, but it won't be a long argument... I hope.

Daniels earth is not depicted as a sphere in its cosmology

Okay. Whatever you say.

 

[Job 33:6]

It seems you have a lot of easy ways to understand. None of which have proved easy.
Could it be, it's easy because it's all in your mind, where I cannot reach.


The description in Genesis... at least in the Bible I have read, says this:
Genesis 1:1-10

1 Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.​

6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters, to separate the waters from the waters.” 7 So God made the expanse and separated the waters beneath it from the waters above. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning - the second day.​

9 And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, so that the dry land may appear.” And it was so.​

10 God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.​

If you are saying that the waters below - that is, in the watery deep ("oceans") were divided, so that there was an expanse - which God called sky - between the waters below, and the waters above, that I agree is what Genesis does say.
The expanse is the space between those waters from where birds fly, to the edge of space as we know it today.

In Genesis, the earth is not described as resting on the waters. Rather, dry land appears in the midst of the waters, where in time grass grows, and land animals and humans dwell.
The oceans are where sea creatures dwell.

That is Genesis' description, which is different to what you are seeing... even though I haven't got a clear picture yet, of what you are seeing.


Where did you read that God is walking on a so called dome?


You are correct. It does not refer to animals, since they do not worship, but refers to persons that are in the earth - those that will come to life.
According to Jesus, and the apostle Paul, those in the earth, will be raised up, and yes, many a knee will bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth (katachthonios: Under the earth, subterranean).

I'm sorry you interpret that as being under the spherical earth.
It's not saying that.
Daniel 12:2

And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.​

Also, if you check the Hebrew on Genesis 1:20, and I can help you to do this if you would like, but you'll notice that it says that birds fly across the face or in front of the face of the firmament of the sky. Not "in" or inside it. But it doesn't matter. Birds could still fly within a balloon.

Genesis 1:20 NRSV
[20] And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky.”

So it doesn't really matter how you translate it, it can work a few different ways with the text.

Like you could imagine a bird flying inside a balloon with the edges of the balloon holding back the waters that were parted.

 

[Job 33:6]

Okay. Whatever you say.

It's not what I say. It's what the Bible says:

Daniel 4:20 NRSV
[20] The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,



You're still thinking of the Bible as if it is a 21st century science textbook, rather than thinking of it through the lens of an ancient near East context and cosmology.

 

[Job 33:6]

It seems you have a lot of easy ways to understand. None of which have proved easy.
Could it be, it's easy because it's all in your mind, where I cannot reach.


The description in Genesis... at least in the Bible I have read, says this:
Genesis 1:1-10

1 Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.​

6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters, to separate the waters from the waters.” 7 So God made the expanse and separated the waters beneath it from the waters above. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning - the second day.​

9 And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, so that the dry land may appear.” And it was so.​

10 God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.​

If you are saying that the waters below - that is, in the watery deep ("oceans") were divided, so that there was an expanse - which God called sky - between the waters below, and the waters above, that I agree is what Genesis does say.
The expanse is the space between those waters from where birds fly, to the edge of space as we know it today.

In Genesis, the earth is not described as resting on the waters. Rather, dry land appears in the midst of the waters, where in time grass grows, and land animals and humans dwell.
The oceans are where sea creatures dwell.

That is Genesis' description, which is different to what you are seeing... even though I haven't got a clear picture yet, of what you are seeing.


Where did you read that God is walking on a so called dome?


You are correct. It does not refer to animals, since they do not worship, but refers to persons that are in the earth - those that will come to life.
According to Jesus, and the apostle Paul, those in the earth, will be raised up, and yes, many a knee will bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth (katachthonios: Under the earth, subterranean).

I'm sorry you interpret that as being under the spherical earth.
It's not saying that.
Daniel 12:2

And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.​

Let's see what your source says about katachthonios:

Definition: Under the earth, subterranean
Meaning: under the earth, subterranean, infernal.

Word Origin: From the Greek preposition "κατά" (kata, meaning "down") and "χθών" (chthōn, meaning "earth" or "ground").

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: While there is no direct Hebrew equivalent for "katachthonios," the concept of the underworld or Sheol is often represented by the Hebrew word "שְׁאוֹל" (Sheol, Strong's H7585), which refers to the abode of the dead.

Ah yes, thank you!

And yes, the earth being revealed in the midst of the waters is precisely an aspect of what I am describing.

For someone who denies the existence of an underworld in the old testament, you seem to keep sharing resources that reference just that.

Your words, friend.

Let's see what else you've said...

 

[Job 33:6]

@Job 33:6 I already went through that Sheol topic, and have already pointed out time and again, that your interpretation of scripture does not make scripture become what you interpret them as, so quoting scriptures and giving your ideas will not make this discussion end.
It will only continue, with you repeating the same thing over and over, as if that will change anything.

If you want to discuss Sheol, the underworld, or any other topic, start a new thread.
I just might start one on the erroneous view of the so called spirit of Samuel, if I feel inclined to argue with you for hours, without getting anywhere, but I'll have to think about that.

Sure. I don't mind either way.

In the meantime, this thread is about the firmament.
Even scholars who aren't very favorable to the Bible, do not list the Israelites, or Hebrews among those promoting the Underworld myth.

I would say that most old testament scholars acknowledge an underworld in the old testament. I don't know what scholars you read, but I have a long list of scholars that I can share that have writings on the topic of Israelite cosmology, including texts on the underworld sheol.

However, start a new thread, if you feel the Underworld is actually in scripture.
None of the scriptures you referenced has anything to do with a so called underworld.

Spirits under the earth where sheol is hungry for men, where God's anger burns and where spirits of the rephaim are waiting to greet newcomers, that sounds like an underworld to me.

Samuel's spirit being brought up from under the earth. It's not like his spirit came out of the sky or out of the ocean or something. He came from "down there" where spirits are.

That's all it is. It's not like there is a castle down there or anything like that. It's just a place under the earth where spirits dwell.

But I'm ok moving on from this. Ill keep an eye out if you decide to continue.

 

[Job 33:6]

Bubble? Would you be willing to admit that that is not what we read, but is how you interpret it, and see it in your mind?


King James Bible
Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.

New King James Version
Thick clouds cover Him, so that He cannot see, And He walks above the circle of heaven.’

Ive states that indeed, it is figurative language. You've shared the very same verse, and you're asking me if it's not figurative?

This is often translated as "dome" or "expanse.

It's basically like a bubble. Or a tent or umbrella that holds up the waters above.

Or a balloon is a decent analogy.

If you could imagine camping, and you open up a tent, like an upside down bowl that protects you.

And yes, it is what scripture describes. And I gave a few examples in my prior post where sometimes it's simply referred to as a "dome".

Or sometimes you'll see it translated as "vault" or "vaulted dome" depending on if you're using the NIV, NASB, NRSV, or CEB etc.

...and that's not figurative language, like the pillars supporting the earth, right?
How about Isaiah 19:1, or Psalm 104:3?
I think it was David that sang, that God came riding on a cherub. Psalm 18:10

The dome language is more phenomenological. If you go outside and you look up, the sky looks kind of like a dome. It's blue above, the waters above. And that blue continues down to the horizon, on all sides. Like a tent.

And pillars under the earth, that's just more cosmology language.

Isaiah 19:1 ESV
[1] An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

I'm not sure what cosmology you're referencing here. But yes it does sound figurative with hearts melting.

Psalm 104:3 ESV
[3] He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters; he makes the clouds his chariot; he rides on the wings of the wind;

Yes, definitely figurative here. Psalm 104 is fantastic by the way. One of the best psalms. But God doesn't literally have chambers resting on a sky ocean. That's cosmology of the ancient near east.

I can only leave it to each person, to understand the scriptures in the light of what is expressed in scriptures.
If you take the Bible literally at what it says, and that's what you want to do, then I accept that.

God ids not in the clouds, but the scriptures say he is in the highest heavens.
He has no feet, resting on a pavement like the gods of the nations, that are no gods, but rather, demonic depictions.
I understand that figurative language, and visions, which are not actual depictions, but a representation, do not paint a literal picture.

If that however, is how you take the scriptures, and I will end on this note... how you interpret the scriptures, based on your beliefs, I will leave you to that.

Yes, these are figurative. But the point here is that these figurative depictions, depict an ancient Israelite cosmology. That's what the firmament is. It's essentially a solid dome in the sky.