The fatal flaw of Universalism

[SkyWriting]

The Greek was originally all caps so the NIV translators have taken liberty to distinguish between the two, thus inserting their own opinion/interpretation and perhaps even bias into the text. Not always a wise thing to do.

They don't look like numbskulls.
NIV Bible Translators

 

[Der Alte]

Perhaps His warning has the desired effect.
It's just a theory anyway, in light of the many verses that proclaim universalism (I know you disagree).
If all be reconciled to God in Christ, then there can't be a bunch of unforgiven people left.

Why are none of the UR proof texts found where Jesus was speaking?
And the ones from the apostles are contradicted by the same apostles own writing.
E.g. Paul.

Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.​

Colossians 1:20 which supposedly says all things on earth will be reconciled, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death, no matter what. But 2 vss. later vs. 23, Paul says there are conditions

Col 1:23
(23)IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;​

The condition is IF you continue in the faith etc. The converse of vs. 23 “if you do NOT continue in your faith [are] NOT grounded and NOT settled, and ARE moved away from the hope of the gospel, you will NOT be reconciled [vs. 20][/color]
Let us read more from Paul about UR.

● 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
● Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
● Ephesians 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.​

In three different epistles [books] Paul lists groups of people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse, 2 or more would be better, where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died.
Here are more verses which state conditions for salvation.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
1 Corinthians 15:2
(2) By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
Luke 10:13-15
(13) Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
(14) But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
(15) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.​

Lk 17:1 A fate worse than death, no salvation

Luke 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
Luke 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.​

Greater damnation, not salvation.

Luke 3:4-6
(4) As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
(5) Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
(6) And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.​

In these vss. Luke is quoting Isaiah 40:4-5 but Luke misquoted the word salvation for glory.

Isaiah 40:4-5
(4) Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
(5) and the glory [כבוד /kabod] ]of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.​

What or who is the salvation that Paul said all flesh would see? c.f. Luk 2:30.

Luk 2:27-30
(27) And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
(28) Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
(29) Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
(30) For mine eyes have seen thy salvation[ ישועה/yeshuah] pronounced the same as Yeshua/ישוע Jesus’ name in Hebrew.​

 

[Oldmantook]

Paul did in fact demolish the law. Claims that he continued to observe it are questionable.
Same with Christ. What do these verses tell us?

John 9:16
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

That's what I used to think. But just like eternal conscious torment; found out that I was badly mistaken upon scrutiny of what the text really states.

It you examine the OT Torah, there is nothing in the written law that prohibits one from healing, doing good to one's neighbor, etc on the Sabbath. Works of service done out of love for others or for God is never forbidden on the Sabbath. Note that it is the Pharisees who accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath. You and I know that Jesus repeatedly condemned the Pharisees so that should at least send a yellow flag up in our minds regarding the veracity of the Pharisees' claims. So why did they accuse Jesus of violating the Sabbath? The answer is because it violated their oral law, their rabbinical law which contains their tradition/interpretation of what the written law means and how it is to be strictly applied. Throughout his ministry, Jesus condemned the Pharisees for putting their oral law above the written law.
Matt 7:8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions." 9And he continued, "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.' 11But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)- 12then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

Jesus called out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who knew that healing on the Sabbath was not prohibited in the written law but they were guilty of adding to the law through their oral traditions as specified in their Talmud, Mishnah.
Lk 14:1One Sabbath, when Jesus went to eat in the house of a prominent Pharisee, he was being carefully watched. 2There in front of him was a man suffering from abnormal swelling of his body. 3Jesus asked the Pharisees and experts in the law, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?” 4But they remained silent. So taking hold of the man, he healed him and sent him on his way.
5Then he asked them, “If one of you has a child a or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull it out?” 6And they had nothing to say.

 

[Der Alte]

The Greek was originally all caps so the NIV translators have taken liberty to distinguish between the two, thus inserting their own opinion/interpretation and perhaps even bias into the text. Not always a wise thing to do. The law never saved anyone - only faith in Jesus saves.
Why would Paul demolish the law when he himself continued to observe it? Jesus also observed the law.

My first Greek professor Dr. Roger Omanson was on the first NIV translation committee. He often spoke about the care the translators exercised. It will take clear and convincing evidence to prove them wrong.

It's not so much "mistranslation" as a misunderstanding of the most literal translation. "Everlasting punishment" actually means "results that are not temporary".
For example hitting your hand with a hammer results in temporary punishment.
Cutting your hand off results in everlasting punishment.
Scripture refers to the second one.
From the cause and effect, it means the effect is permanent.
You are "cut off" from the option to have faith in God.
While we were still sinners, He sent his only Son to die for our sins. Is there something more required after your death to change your mind about His sincerity?

Not quite correct.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

 

[Oldmantook]

I applaud the clarity that the NOV translators brought to the text. It is clear that these texts were referring to the books. In English they SHOULD BE capitalized.

Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 22:40
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

Acts 13:15
After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the leaders of the synagogue sent word to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have a word of exhortation for the people, please speak.”

Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,

Acts 28:23
They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the law was done away with but not the prophets?

 

[Oldmantook]

My first Greek professor Dr. Roger Omanson was on the first NIV translation committee. He often spoke about the care the translators exercised. It will take clear and convincing evidence to prove them wrong.

Not quite correct.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

Of course the translators will state that they took great care in their translation. What else would you expect them to say?? I don't question their sincerity. It is possible to be sincere - but sincerely wrong. BTW still waiting for your reply from my last post to you Der Alter but you are not obligated to reply.

 

[Jord Simcha]

Why are none of the UR proof texts found where Jesus was speaking?
And the ones from the apostles are contradicted by the same apostles own writing.
E.g. Paul.

Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.​

Colossians 1:20 which supposedly says all things on earth will be reconciled, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death, no matter what. But 2 vss. later vs. 23, Paul says there are conditions

Col 1:23
(23)IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;​

The condition is IF you continue in the faith etc. The converse of vs. 23 “if you do NOT continue in your faith [are] NOT grounded and NOT settled, and ARE moved away from the hope of the gospel, you will NOT be reconciled [vs. 20][/color]

Verse 23 pertains more to verse 21 than to 20 is how I read it. 21 says you who were sometime alienated yet now hath been reconciled, 23 if ye continue in the faith.

 

[Oldmantook]

It appears that you are using the same definition for "the law" and "the Law". They are two different things. The Ten Commandments are part of the law, which is found in the Law. (the books of the Law)

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Still unclear to me. How is the law different from the Law?

 

[Oldmantook]

Two different things. Jesus fulfilled the Law. (capital "L") But he terminated the law. (small "l") Which means the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

Okay, I see now. If Jesus terminated the law, then as I explained earlier why did he continue to keep it despite the Pharisees condemnation of him breaking the Sabbath as I explained earlier?

 

[Der Alte]

***

I<SM> wish there was a 'hound of heaven' scripture. It's a lovely metaphor imho.
The torment is what is experienced subjectively by sinners who can't 'overcome' by relinquishing their sin attachments ('washing the robes' which can only mean cleansing the flesh of sin). .... The sinner wants to hold on to his pride, his lust etc. In his blindness he doesn't 'get' that these things are death-inducing, and the more he resists, the more prolonged and painful the experience becomes.
A lesser form of this is the admonition to several of the backsliding churches to 'buy gold refined in the fire'. It's also the reason death is thrown into the fire. Anything impure is cast in. Because it's a process of 'making all things new'. Also why there's sulphur/ brimstone/ theion in the fire. It has a well-known purifying function.[Sulphur has been found to have no curative or preserving properties despite what the Greeks thought.]
If they'd translated 'fire' as 'pure', I suggest this wouldn't be such a challenge for you.
Strong's Greek: 4442. πῦρ (pur) -- fire. As you're aware, the fire of the Spirit is that which purifies and cleanses:
4442 pýr – fire. In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself
God's Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.
So the reprobates are refuseniks, and they need all the 'encouragement' they can get from the Spirit and the bride to turn to Christ. The gates of the City of God are always open, you can always wash your robes in the lake outside (take the first step, we'll support you!), otherwise just remain outside being a vile klutz still. So it's just a matter of time (as critical mass has already been reached).
So it seems that most are thrown into the fire, but have the choice there to resist or submit to Christ. If it's anything like the baptism I received when the HS changed me, I don't think they'll be holding out for too long. Who can stand, after all?
I've just canvassed a number of scriptures of which I think you're well aware, der Alter. So I won't bore you with formal references. If you have a different interpretation of 'washing robes', 'gold refined in the fire', 'ever-open gates', and the function of holy fire, by all means.<SM>

***

Personal testimony, everything in red, not supported by scripture is not compelling.
The lake of fire is called the second death three times. There is never any mention of resurrection or release from it. But tormented day and night for ever is mentioned.

 

[Der Alte]

Verse 23 pertains more to verse 21 than to 20 is how I read it. 21 says you who were sometime alienated yet now hath been reconciled, 23 if ye continue in the faith.

"If you continue in the faith" that is a condition which excludes those who do not continue in the faith.

 

[Jord Simcha]

"If you continue in the faith" that is a condition which excludes those who do not continue in the faith.

Yes, but like I said it refers having been reconciled, perfect tense.

It doesn't refer to the all in verse 20 but the you in verse 21, imo.

Paul (or God if you will, because I believe God is ultimately the author) changed the subject from reconciliation of all in verse 20 which is future tense, to the reader him-/herself's reconciliation to God as something already done (if they continue in the faith).

 

[Der Alte]

Of course the translators will state that they took great care in their translation. What else would you expect them to say?? I don't question their sincerity. It is possible to be sincere - but sincerely wrong. BTW still waiting for your reply from my last post to you Der Alter but you are not obligated to reply.

I didn't mean he just said they took care, over the semester he often described the conferences they held to arrive at a translation. Have you ever checked a definition in the BDAG and took note of the historical sources they reviewed in determining the correct translation of words? I counted at least 35 for one single word "aionios." So if you want to challenge a translation then you better bring that kind of scholarship to the table. Just some "scholar" giving a different translation ain't going to cut it.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, but like I said it refers having been reconciled, perfect tense.
It doesn't refer to the all in verse 20 but the you in verse 21, imo.
Paul (or God if you will, because I believe God is ultimately the author) changed the subject from reconciliation of all in verse 20 which is future tense, to the reader him-/herself's reconciliation to God as something already done (if they continue in the faith).

That ain't the way Greek works.

Col 1:20-23
(20) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(21) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
(22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
(23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;​

"you,""your" vs. 21, "you" vs. 22, "ye,""ye" vs. 23 are all the same group.

 

[Jord Simcha]

That ain't the way Greek works.

Col 1:20-23
(20) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(21) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
(22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
(23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;​

"you,""your" vs. 21, "you" vs. 22, "ye,""ye" vs. 23 are all the same group.

I agree that the verses 21-23 are connected, it was what I was saying. I see a distinction with verse 20 though, don't you?

20 paraphrased: He is to reconcile all things unto himself
then 21 through 23 And you....

 

[SkyWriting]

Not quite correct.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

I can agree with that. Loosing ones hand does not result in punishment
unless you miss having it.

 

[Der Alte]

I can agree with that. Loosing ones hand does not result in punishment
unless you miss having it.

That was also a rebuttal of the argument that "eternal punishment" does not mean punishment that continues for ever, "what it really means is death, which is eternal." As Justin said, "It ain't punishment unless the person is conscious."

 

[SkyWriting]

That was also a rebuttal of the argument that "eternal punishment" does not mean punishment that continues for ever, "what it really means is death, which is eternal." As Justin said, "It ain't punishment unless the person is conscious."

Time does not pass after death. That's why things are eternal there.
Otherwise, they'd just get older. (In time)

 

[Saint Steven]

That's what I used to think. But just like eternal conscious torment; found out that I was badly mistaken upon scrutiny of what the text really states.

It you examine the OT Torah, there is nothing in the written law that prohibits one from healing, doing good to one's neighbor, etc on the Sabbath. Works of service done out of love for others or for God is never forbidden on the Sabbath. Note that it is the Pharisees who accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath. You and I know that Jesus repeatedly condemned the Pharisees so that should at least send a yellow flag up in our minds regarding the veracity of the Pharisees' claims. So why did they accuse Jesus of violating the Sabbath? The answer is because it violated their oral law, their rabbinical law which contains their tradition/interpretation of what the written law means and how it is to be strictly applied. Throughout his ministry, Jesus condemned the Pharisees for putting their oral law above the written law.
Matt 7:8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions." 9And he continued, "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.' 11But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)- 12then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

Jesus called out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who knew that healing on the Sabbath was not prohibited in the written law but they were guilty of adding to the law through their oral traditions as specified in their Talmud, Mishnah.
Lk 14:1One Sabbath, when Jesus went to eat in the house of a prominent Pharisee, he was being carefully watched. 2There in front of him was a man suffering from abnormal swelling of his body. 3Jesus asked the Pharisees and experts in the law, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?” 4But they remained silent. So taking hold of the man, he healed him and sent him on his way.
5Then he asked them, “If one of you has a child a or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull it out?” 6And they had nothing to say.

I agree in general, but if Jesus came to uphold and promote the law, was this the way to do it? He challenged the law at every turn.

The most basic violation of the Sabbath law was work on the Sabbath. What does Jesus say about that?

John 5:16-18
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the law was done away with but not the prophets?

I'm saying that the law (small "l") was done away with, not the Law (capital "L") and the Prophets (capital "P") meaning the books, which is what Jesus said he didn't come to abolish. Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecies in those books.

John 5:45-47
“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”