The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Shrewd Manager]

Why, I know what pagan is from reading the scripture? It explains it very well!

What does this mean to you Charlie?

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Mt 23:15)

What kind of doctrine makes a proselyte a 'child of hell'? Could it be the one that threatens unrepentant sinners with eternal damnation?

Could this also be the subject of this verse:

For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. (Mt 23:4)

 

[Oldmantook]

Rubbish assumes that Matt 25:46 refers to a millenium which is not mentioned until the book of revelation years later.

Your continued evasiveness scores you ZERO points. I've asked you repeatedly just what then does Matt 25:46 refer to? Inquiring minds want to know and are still waiting.

So show me some scripture, in Revelation, which states that the unrighteous in the LOF will repent and become righteous, loving God etc. versus "tormented for ever and ever."

Explain to me how tormented for ever and ever squares with God's purpose in Col 1:20 to reconcile all to himself. Explain to me how the "kings of the earth" referenced several times in Revelation and without exception, always described as God's sworn enemies are allowed to enter the gates of the New Jerusalem in Rev 21:24.

This is called cherry picking. Pick verses or passages which seem in isolation to support a particular view.

Can't help but laugh out loud at your comment considering you always post your favorite list of verses which you think supports your view. A list of "cherry picked" verses of your own!

And concentrating on this passage does not take into consideration other verses in Rev which contradict the Uni view see e.g. Rev 21:3-8 written after chap 5 which you quoted.
Revelation 21:3-8
vs. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all things. The converse of this is those who are not victorious will not inherit etc.
vs. 8 eight groups of people, who evidently were not victorious, are thrown into the lake of fire which is still the second death.

v.7 Of course the converse is true but the verse does not preclude the fact that ALL shall eventually become victorious in keeping with Col 1:20 which is the whole point of Universalism isn't it?
v.8 Of course those people are thrown into the LOF. What do you suppose they are doing there? Twiddling their thumbs in misery? That could be. However a better indicator is found in Rev 22:
14Blessed are those washing their robes,a that their right will be to the tree of life, and they shall enter into the city by the gates. 15Outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving and practicing falsehood.
The New Jerusalem has already come down to earth per Rev 21 which you cited and God is among His people which you already noted in v.3. In Rev 22 John further describes the city including the lake of fire outside. Note in v.14 note that πλύνοντες is a present tense participle better translated as "washing." Since the saints are already in the city and God is among His people as you have already acknowledged, WHO IS WASHING THEIR ROBES? Aren't the saints in the city already supposed to have their robes washed and clean?? Since the saints are already in the city and God is among His people as you have already acknowledged, who WILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE and SHALL ENTER INTO THE CITY BY THE GATES?? The saints are already in the city so who else is allowed to enter? The only possible answer is THOSE OUTSIDE THE CITY in the lake of fire v.15.

Total rubbish. God's will is that all be saved but according to Jeremiah, see above, while God's will means all, not all will be saved. When one reads and reconciles ALL scripture instead of isolated proof texts, they might realize how people live will exclude them from ALL. Here are 3 verses where Jesus, Himself, defines "aionios" as eternal, unending etc.

Total rubbish as you diminish the power and sovereignty of God. What God wills, He will indeed accomplish. His hand is not too short to do whatever He wills but it's your prerogative to deny it. I prefer to take God at his word that ALL be saved.

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life. In these 2 verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life. "Aionios life" means will not perish.
John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

Oh brother; you repeat your same argument again. Perhaps your memory is fading? Do you not remember that I wrote to you in another thread that "eternal life" refers to life in the Millennial Age which is why in speaking to the rich young ruler who was a Jew, Jesus equated 'eternal life' with the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God. Jesus himself defined 'eternal life' for us and he did not mean 'forever.' I informed you that the Jews were looking forward to an AGE OF TIME; i.e., MILLENNIUM where Jesus would conquer all her enemies and Israel would live in God's kingdom on earth in an era of peace. My explanation didn't sit well with you as you denied that the Jews were looking forward to the coming Millennial Age with Jesus as their conquering King instead of the Lamb slain on the cross - despite my quoting from the Jewish Encyclopedia. It's your choice to continue denying the fact that aionion refers to an age of time - not eternal. I prefer Jesus' own definition.

 

[Charlie24]

PraiseGod Barebones, the manic street preacher, also swears he gets his info from 'God's Word', but he's still utterly insane.

If Jesus tells us that God is to be understood by analogy as a father, then we're supposed to relate by what we know about fatherly qualities. If your child rejected your love, would you torture them forever?

Isa. 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

The sooner you figure this out, the better for you.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Isa. 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

The sooner you figure this out, the better for you.

Out of context. You want proof texts for slavery and murder, they can be found.

So God for you is a total alien being? Sad, man.

 

[FineLinen]

Isa. 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

The sooner you figure this out, the better for you.

It is sad the Charlies of this present Churchianity. They hate what God loves, and will continue to do so until such time as they are brought into the Name of Jesus.

EPHESIANS 1 PARALLEL KJV AND WEYMOUTH BIBLE (NEW TESTAMENT)

Do you cherish what God cherishes?

"He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

Restoration =

An act of restoring.

The condition of being restored.

To bring back to a former position or condition.

To restore to an unimpaired position or condition.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Where do you get the idea that kolasis means correction? Here is the definition from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon. Note the definitions, no correction anywhere. See the blue highlights, those are the historical sources the scholars reviewed to determine the correct meaning. Contrary to the popular internet rumor scholars don't sit around making up meanings for words.

κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)
① infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.
② transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.—Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

Why not go to the horse? Clement of Alexandria, Church father, had this to say:

“For there are partial corrections (padeiai) which are called chastisements (kolasis), which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish (timoria) for punishment (timoria) is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually.” (Strom, VII, ii; Pedag. I, 8; on I John ii, 2)

Aristotle used it as correction when he plainly and clearly stated,

“Kolasis aims at correction.” (Rhetric. i. 10.)

He also says later in the same work,

“There is a difference between revenge (timoria) and punishment (kolasis); the latter (kolasis) is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer, the former in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” (Rhetoric 1369b,13,)

Plato likewise:

“For the natural or accidental evils of others no one gets angry, or admonishes, or teaches, or punishes (kolazei) them, but we pity those afflicted with such misfortune for if, O Socrates, if you will consider what is the design of punishing (kolazein) the wicked, this of itself will show you that men think virtue something that may be acquired; for no one punishes (kolazei) the wicked, looking to the past only simply for the wrong he has done–that is, no one does this thing who does not act like a wild beast; desiring only revenge (timoria), without thought. Hence, he who seeks to punish (kolazein) with reason does not punish for the sake of the past wrong deed, but for the sake of the future, that neither the man himself who is punished may do wrong again, nor any other who has seen him chastised. And he who entertains this thought must believe that virtue may be taught, and he punishes (kolazei) for the purpose of deterring from wickedness.” (Protagoras 323 E)

Who were those scholars you were quoting again Der Alter?

 

[Charlie24]

It is sad the Charlies of this present Churchianity. They hate what God loves, and will continue to do so until such time as they are brought into the Name of Jesus.

EPHESIANS 1 PARALLEL KJV AND WEYMOUTH BIBLE (NEW TESTAMENT)

Do you cherish what God cherishes?

"He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

Restoration =

An act of restoring.

The condition of being restored.

To bring back to a former position or condition.

To restore to an unimpaired position or condition.

What can drive a mans mind so strongly that he will change the Word of God for his desires to be fulfilled?

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Charles: your word for today is > > >

helkō

 

[Shrewd Manager]

What can drive a mans mind so strongly that he will change the Word of God for his desires to be fulfilled?

I guess it must be the usual suspects of spiritual blindness and an innate hatred of Christ.

The Light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

 

[Charlie24]

I guess it must be the usual suspects of spiritual blindness and an innate hatred of Christ.

The Light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

I don't believe hatred of Christ is a factor.

But spiritual blindness could very well be the problem.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I don't believe hatred of Christ is a factor.

But spiritual blindness could very well be the problem.

Well, thank God for Christ then, because he came to inter alia restore sight to the blind...right before he sends them to hell.

 

[FineLinen]

I don't believe hatred of Christ is a factor.

But spiritual blindness could very well be the problem.

Dear Charles: Being blind and deaf requires the One who is the Master of ephphatha.

If we hate what God cherishes, we continue to stand in great need of an awakening in/through/of Him!

Do you cherish what God cherishes?

"He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

 

[Lazarus Short]

What can drive a mans mind so strongly that he will change the Word of God for his desires to be fulfilled?

I have wondered about that many times in regard to the translators or the KJV. Oh, and by the way, the KJV is not the Word of God, but a translation of it.

 

[Charlie24]

I have wondered about that many times in regard to the translators or the KJV. Oh, and by the way, the KJV is not the Word of God, but a translation of it.

I suppose one could see it that way if he doesn't believe God would oversee the inspiration of His Word for the English speaking people.

That would explain the disregard for the KJV.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I suppose one could see it that way if he doesn't believe God would oversee the inspiration of His Word for the English speaking people.

That would explain the disregard for the KJV.

Charlie, I have explained my "disregard." Some years ago I was a KJV defender. Then I became aware of its bad word choices, impelled by bad theology. Tell me why are you, as a Baptist, so enamored of an Anglican translation from prior centuries? There are better Bible versions out there, both as to language and theology.

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie, I have explained my "disregard." Some years ago I was a KJV defender. Then I became aware of its bad word choices, impelled by bad theology. Tell me why are you, as a Baptist, so enamored of an Anglican translation from prior centuries? There are better Bible versions out there, both as to language and theology.

I believe the KJV is the only one inspired by God.

God never changes but we do. Looking for a better translation is natural for man.

If you study the KJV version you may find it's not the version that's wrong, it may be you!

 

[FineLinen]

I believe the KJV is the only one inspired by God.

Dear Charles: This is the least of your problems.

There is exactly one version that is inspired: the koine & Hebrew.

Do you cherish what God cherishes?

"He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

 

[Lazarus Short]

I believe the KJV is the only one inspired by God.

God never changes but we do. Looking for a better translation is natural for man.

If you study the KJV version you may find it's not the version that's wrong, it may be you!

No it was the version for sure. I'm not perfect. The KJV translators were not perfect. The KJV is not perfect. How do I know that? I have examined enough verses in interlinear form to know.

Charlie, ever notice that the KJV supporters always favorably compare the KJV to other versions such as the NIV, ESV and on and on, but NEVER compare it with the original Greek and Hebrew?

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Charles: would you like to know what restore means?

This is the foundation of what the Restitutution of the ta pante is.

Apokathistemi, or the alternative form apokathistano is used of "restoration" to a former condition of health.

The all returned to what was lost in Adam1

 

[Lazarus Short]

Dear Charles: would you like to know what restore means?

This is the foundation of what the Restitutution of the ta pante is.

Apokathistemi, or the alternative form apokathistano is used of "restoration" to a former condition of health.

The all returned to what was lost in Adam1

...or as John Milton called it: Paradise Regained.