The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Charlie24]

So...you think and believe our puny little wills trump God's sovereign Will? I believe in a God named YHVH, Who is both willing and able to save all. You believe in the same God, but you think He is too weak to save all, though he is willing.

Excuse me for a moment while I become a Damnationalsit.

His word is filled with warnings, He begged with Israel, "why must you perish 'O house of Israel."

Jesus cried out in the streets of Jerusalem, "If you believe not that I am He, you will die in your sins."

All the apostles warned us! It is impossible to read the Word of God and not see multiple warnings.

If we perish, we will have no excuse when we stand before God.

 

[FineLinen]

"All around us we observe a pregnant creation. The difficult times of pain throughout the world are simply birth pangs. But it’s not only around us; it’s within us. The Spirit of God is arousing us within. We’re also feeling the birth pangs. These sterile and barren bodies of ours are yearning for full deliverance. That is why waiting does not diminish us, any more than waiting diminishes a pregnant mother. We are enlarged in the waiting. We, of course, don’t see what is enlarging us. But the longer we wait, the larger we become, and the more joyful our expectancy.

Meanwhile, the moment we get tired in the waiting, God’s Spirit is right alongside helping us along. If we don’t know how or what to pray, it doesn’t matter. He does our praying in and for us, making prayer out of our wordless sighs, our aching groans.

He knows us far better than we know ourselves, knows our pregnant condition, and keeps us present before God. That’s why we can be so sure that every detail in our lives of love for God is worked into something good.

God knew what he was doing from the very beginning. He decided from the outset to shape the lives of those who love him along the same lines as the life of his Son. The Son stands first in the line of humanity he restored. We see the original and intended shape of our lives there in him. After God made that decision of what his children should be like, he followed it up by calling people by name. After he called them by name, he set them on a solid basis with himself. And then, after getting them established, he stayed with them to the end, gloriously completing what he had begun." -The Message-

I believe in a God who completes what He has begun. He is Author & Finisher!

If you grasp what it means to be IN Christ Jesus you should be able to realize the scope of the Restitution of all things, the ta pante.

Upon that foundation you should know every last being of the heavens, the earth & the underworld ultimately worships Him in union with His lovely Name! Not in perfunctory genuflections "at" the sound of the Name, but out of union IN/EN the Name of all names.

The All, the ta pante!

What Does Philippians 2:10 Mean? "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,."

 

[Lazarus Short]

Excuse me for a moment while I become a Damnationalsit.

His word is filled with warnings, He begged with Israel, "why must you perish 'O house of Israel."

Jesus cried out in the streets of Jerusalem, "If you believe not that I am He, you will die in your sins."

All the apostles warned us! It is impossible to read the Word of God and not see multiple warnings.

If we perish, we will have no excuse when we stand before God.

I agree! We were warned, and the wicked non-believers will have no excuse. They go into the Lake of Fire. But how is that the end, if God is to become All in all?

You've got to harmonize ALL the Scriptures.

Further, you will profit by seeing how "hel" came from Norse mythology (the godess Hel and her realm of Helheim (House of Hel)) and then showed up in "Beowulf" with its thin Christian veneer. In "Beowulf," we see both hel and hell, as we see later in the 1611 KJV. Yes, hel and hell. It would seem that "hel" is pagan and "hell" is Christian, but the 1611 KJV shows both and how one became the other. So...the "hell" in your KJV is linked to the pagan Norse "hel." Argue all you want, but there is no way around that.

 

[Oldmantook]

Why don't people who are sent to prison in this life become law abiding citizens and love the judges, lawyers, juries etc who put them in prison?

Simple. Because human prisons are not the lake of fire. One cannot possibly compare jails made by human hands, staffed and run by fallible humans, with the lake of fire administered by the hand of God.

And the Uni view either completely ignores Revelation or tries to make it say something it does not say.
Not one single verse in Revelation states or implies that "the LOF is a place of chastening for the purpose of correction and ultimately reconciliation with God."

Au contraire; just that you overlook them.
Rev 15:4 Who should not fear You, O Lord, and will glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all the nations will come and will worship before You, because Your righteous acts have been revealed."
Rev 5:9-10, “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. 10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”
Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature which is in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and everything in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing and honor and glory and might to the ages of the ages.”
Rev 22:3 No longer will there be a curse upon anything. For the throne of God and of the Lamb will be there, and his servants will worship him.

Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting disparate verses out-of-context and/or jamming various verses together regardless of context as you are trying to do with Col 1:20 and

Of course they can but you have not attempted to explain away the plain reading of Col 1:20 where God's expressed purpose is to reconcile all things to himself. God means what He says; no caveats allowed. Proper hermeneutics requires that the rest of Scripture be interpreted from the clear and plain reading that this verse requires.

I see torment for ever and ever but nothing about chastening/reconciliation. Do you think maybe John forgot to put that in?

Nope; your cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias prevents you from understanding correctly. I already cited Matt 25:46 to you as the favorite proof-text that the ECT crowd enjoys utilizing in order to claim that aionion means "eternal" when in fact it cannot mean eternal because it references the Millennium which is obviously not eternal. You have not explained that away.

Also how did the seven churches in Revelation, to whom John was writing, understand Revelation? It is highly unlikely that they had a copy or even heard of the epistle to Colossae. Both epistles may have been written about the same time in different parts of the world, Paul in Rome, John on Patmos. When they heard/read Revelation how would they understand it? There is nothing about chastening and correction.

Quite the contrary, they understood Revelation because they understood what the Koine Greek meant instead of your misinterpretation. Even in our English, all means all but your version of the gospel message dictates that the Good News is really the "horrible news" as the great majority of humankind is eternally tormented and never reconciled to God - contrary to Col 1:20.

 

[FineLinen]

Gracious Gospel

“From the beginning God was and always will be a God of all grace. He purposes to be All in all of His creation; but every man in his own foreordained and previously marked out order. No doctrine is of God that does not include, ‘Having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His own benevolent design, which He previously purposed in Himself: that in the fullness of the ages He will gather together in one all in Christ, both those who are in the heavens and those who are on earth, even in Him." -Sherwood Michael-

 

[Charlie24]

I agree! We were warned, and the wicked non-believers will have no excuse. They go into the Lake of Fire. But how is that the end, if God is to become All in all?

You've got to harmonize ALL the Scriptures.

Further, you will profit by seeing how "hel" came from Norse mythology (the godess Hel and her realm of Helheim (House of Hel)) and then showed up in "Beowulf" with its thin Christian veneer. In "Beowulf," we see both hel and hell, as we see later in the 1611 KJV. Yes, hel and hell. It would seem that "hel" is pagan and "hell" is Christian, but the 1611 KJV shows both and how one became the other. So...the "hell" in your KJV is linked to the pagan Norse "hel." Argue all you want, but there is no way around that.

With all due respect Laz, it seems to me you would know better that to compare Norse Mythology with the Word of God. This is what happens when you stray from the Word.

The "All in All is when the plan of God is finished, there will be no trace of sin left on earth. All things will become as God originally made it, perfect and sinless.

 

[Lazarus Short]

With all due respect Laz, it seems to me you would know better that to compare Norse Mythology with the Word of God. This is what happens when you stray from the Word.

You aren't seeing what I am showing you. If your Bible has words in it from a pagan source, it is time to move on to another version...one which lacks the pagan word and concept. I am not the one who has strayed.

 

[Charlie24]

You aren't seeing what I am showing you. If your Bible has words in it from a pagan source, it is time to move on to another version...one which lacks the pagan word and concept. I am not the one who has strayed.

There is quite a difference in the Bible mentioning pagan gods and such as warnings (these represent sin and ungodliness in today's society) and using pagan sources to define hell in the Bible.

 

[FineLinen]

The "All in All is when the plan of God is finished, there will be no trace of sin left on earth. All things will become as God originally made it, perfect and sinless.

Yup!

The entire polus "made sinners" = the polus "made righteous".

All = all / many = many / polus = polus

 

[FineLinen]

There is quite a difference in the Bible mentioning pagan gods and such as warnings (these represent sin and ungodliness in today's society) and using pagan sources to define hell in the Bible.

Perhaps you should consider the J.E. to find out what pagan is!

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name "Gehenna" itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna (

; 'Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (Soṭah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a). Hell awaits one who indulges in unseemly speech (Shab. 33a; Enoch, xxvii.); who always follows the advice of his wife (B. M. 59a); who instructs an unworthy pupil (Ḥul. 133b); who turns away from the Torah (B. B. 79a; comp. Yoma 72b). For further details see 'Er. 18b, 101a; Sanh. 109b; Ḳid. 81a; Ned. 39b; B. M. 19a.

On the other hand, there are merits that preserve man from going to hell; e.g., philanthropy, fasting, visiting the sick, reading the Shema' and Hallel, and eating the three meals on the Sabbath (Giṭ. 7a; B. B. 10a; B. M. 85a; Ned. 40a; Ber. 15b; Pes. 118a; Shab. 118a). Israelites in general are less endangered (Ber. 10a) than heretics, or, according to B. B. 10a, than the heathen. Scholars (Ḥag. 27a; comp. Men. 99b and Yoma 87a), the poor, and the pious (Yeb. 102b) are especially protected. Three classes of men do not see the face of hell: those that live in penury, those suffering with intestinal catarrh, and those that are pressed by their creditors ('Er. 41b). It would seem that the expressions "doomed to hell" and "to be saved from hell" must be interpreted hyperbolically. A bad woman is compared to Gehenna in Yeb. 63b. On the names of Gehenna see 'Er. 19a; B. B. 79a; Sanh. 111b; et al.

 

[Charlie24]

Perhaps you should consider the J.E. to find out what pagan is!

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Why, I know what pagan is from reading the scripture? It explains it very well!

 

[FineLinen]

If you grasp what it means to be IN Christ Jesus you should be able to realize the scope of the Restitution of all things, the ta pante.

Upon that foundation you should know every last being of the heavens, the earth & the underworld ultimately worships Him in union with His lovely Name! Not in perfunctory genuflections "at" the sound of the Name, but out of union IN/EN the Name of all names.

The All, the ta pante!

What Does Philippians 2:10 Mean? "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,."

The Lord Jesus Christ is the predestined Lord of the universe. The scope of His conquests are not simply larger, they are larger & broader by far. His Name is better by far, and in that Name every knee bows, and in that Name every last being in every dimension of the heavens, earth and underworld worships.

Larger > > > Broader> > > Better

 

[Charlie24]

The Lord Jesus Christ is the predestined Lord of the universe. The scope of His conquests are not simply larger, they are larger & broader by far. His Name is better by far, and in that Name every knee bows, and in that Name every last being in every dimension of the heavens, earth and underworld worships.

Larger > > > Broader> > > Better

Pardon me as I momentarily become a Damnationalist again.

Those in hell will be brought before God at the White Throne of Judgement and be forced to bow and confess Jesus Christ is Lord.

Only the lost will be present at this judgement.

The saved will stand before Christ at the Judgement Seat of Christ (the Bema Seat).

 

[FineLinen]

Those in hell will be brought before God at the White Throne of Judgement and be forced to bow and confess Jesus Christ is Lord.

Nonsense!

The bowing IN/EN the Name of all names is NOT forced, it is willing subjection to Him! It is willing worship of Him, it is willing confession of His Lordship. Yes, willing worship by all beings in the heavens, the earth, and the underworld!

It is NOT perfunctory genuflections, NOT!

 

[FineLinen]

Man’s failure or God’s success: which will stand?

“The teaching of the ultimate exaltation of Jesus Christ and the ultimate reconciliation of all men unto Him, make God’s judgments consistent with His plan of creation. God’s judgments become understandable, purposeful, and constructive without violating any aspect of justice, truth, or mercy. If just one person were condemned to eternal torment, then God’s purpose in creation would have been defeated.

God’s judgments are redemptive.

The end result of God’s judgments is, ‘That in the Name of Jesus every knee will bow, celestial, terrestrial, and subterranean, and every tongue will acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:10,11). God planned for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, both in the heavens, and on earth (Eph. 1:10). Amplified Bible

-Lee Salisbury-

I believe that “God is love.” -1 John 4:8-

I believe that “love never fails.” -1 Cor. 13:8-

I believe that God never fails. EVER !

 

[Lazarus Short]

There is quite a difference in the Bible mentioning pagan gods and such as warnings (these represent sin and ungodliness in today's society) and using pagan sources to define hell in the Bible.

In my book about Hell in the KJV, I always used the acronym "NOPE" or "Name Of Pagan Entity" rather than mention the name itself. On the other hand, bad religious concepts need to be traced back to their roots. I am just shining a light on the darkness.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

There is quite a difference in the Bible mentioning pagan gods and such as warnings (these represent sin and ungodliness in today's society) and using pagan sources to define hell in the Bible.

So God will be all in all that's leftover after he drags out the prisoners and forces them to bow and confess before consigning them to the torment of fire forever?

And we have no right to judge whether this conduct is good, loving, gracious, merciful, righteous, holy, fatherly or just, because we know only human standards?

Is that a fair summary of your position Charles?

 

[Charlie24]

So God will be all in all that's leftover after he drags out the prisoners and forces them to bow and confess before consigning them to the torment of fire forever?

And we have no right to judge whether this conduct is good, loving, gracious, merciful, righteous, holy, fatherly or just, because we know only human standards?

Is that a fair summary of your position Charles?

Am I correct in assuming that you think you have the right to question God?

You are correct in my position, because I get my info from Gods Word.

 

[Der Alte]

Simple. Because human prisons are not the lake of fire. One cannot possibly compare jails made by human hands, staffed and run by fallible humans, with the lake of fire administered by the hand of God.

So show me some scripture, in Revelation, which states that the unrighteous in the LOF will repent and become righteous, loving God etc. versus "tormented for ever and ever."

Au contraire; just that you overlook them.

Rev 15:4 Who should not fear You, O Lord, and will glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all the nations will come and will worship before You, because Your righteous acts have been revealed."
Rev 5:9-10, “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. 10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”
Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature which is in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and everything in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing and honor and glory and might to the ages of the ages.”
Rev 22:3 No longer will there be a curse upon anything. For the throne of God and of the Lamb will be there, and his servants will worship him.

This is called cherry picking. Pick verses or passages which seem in isolation to support a particular view. Note vs. 9 "persons from every tribe and language and people and nation." It does not say "every "person as vs. 5:13. And concentrating on this passage does not take into consideration other verses in Rev which contradict the Uni view see e.g. Rev 21:3-8 written after chap 5 which you quoted.

Revelation 21:3-8
(3) And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
(4) 'He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
(5) He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
(6) He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.
(7) Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
(8) But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."​

vs. 3 God is among His people.
vs. 4 no more death.[for God's people]
vs. 5 all things new [for God's people]
vs. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all things. The converse of this is those who are not victorious will not inherit etc.
vs. 8 eight groups of people, who evidently were not victorious, are thrown into the lake of fire which is still the second death.

Of course they can but you have not attempted to explain away the plain reading of Col 1:20 where God's expressed purpose is to

reconcile all things to himself. God means what He says; no caveats allowed. Proper hermeneutics requires that the rest of Scripture be interpreted from the clear and plain reading that this verse requires.

Proper hermeneutics requires that the reader take into consideration ALL of scripture not just a few out of context verses.
.....There is a passage in Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

Jeremiah 3:11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Nope; your cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias prevents you from understanding correctly. I already cited Matt 25:46 to you as the favorite proof-text that the ECT crowd enjoys utilizing in order to claim that aionion means "eternal" when in fact it cannot mean eternal because it references the Millennium which is obviously not eternal. You have not explained that away.

Rubbish assumes that Matt 25:46 refers to a millenium which is not mentioned until the book of revelation years later.

Quite the contrary, they understood Revelation because they understood what the Koine Greek meant instead of your misinterpretation. Even in our English, all means all but your version of the gospel message dictates that the Good News is really the "horrible news" as the great majority of humankind is eternally tormented and never reconciled to God - contrary to Col 1:20

Total rubbish. God's will is that all be saved but according to Jeremiah, see above, while God's will means all, not all will be saved. When one reads and reconciles ALL scripture instead of isolated proof texts, they might realize how people live will exclude them from ALL. Here are 3 verses where Jesus, Himself, defines "aionios" as eternal, unending etc.

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life. ​

In these 2 verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life. "Aionios life" means will not perish.

John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

 

[FineLinen]

So God will be all in all that's leftover after he drags out the prisoners and forces them to bow and confess before consigning them to the torment of fire forever?

And we have no right to judge whether this conduct is good, loving, gracious, merciful, righteous, holy, fatherly or just, because we know only human standards?

Is that a fair summary of your position Charles?

John Gavazzoni

Index Of The 2018 Writings Of John Gavazzoni

The Fullest Meaning of Christ's Indwelling

Quid Pro Quo? No, NO! NO!!

A Call to (Major) Repentance

With Discontinuance Comes Dissonance

Inept False Witness

Wrath

Gehenna: Yes; Hell: No

Death: Yes; Hell: No

Proclamation vs Exhortation

On the Receiving End

He Comes; He Calls; We Follow

Staking Out a Claim in Godness Territory

All Things Are Of God

There's Clearly a Difference

Peeks into a Refreshed Orthodoxy

The Judgment of God

Regarding John G.

Testimony: John Gavazzoni

John Gavazzoni:

"Christ opened my heart to Himself as a 16 year old teenager, having been raised in the Roman Catholic tradition. My conversion came about mostly through the witness of other teen-agers, including some in the gang I ran with."

"Four of us organized a quartette almost immediately after we had turned to the Lord; and we sang, gave our testimonies and took turns preaching in churches and youth rallies all over...particularly the Pennsylvania area. I preached my first sermon that same year. I began in 'full time ministry' at age 19, traveling with a chalk-artist evangelist as his song-man and youth speaker. About two years after that, I went out on my own conducting local church evangelistic crusades and eventually was asked to join the Eastern Area Crusade Staff of Youth for Christ International, covering an eleven-states area.

It was during that period that I came to the revelation of ultimate reconciliation, specifically while ministering at a summer Bible conference.

"I was confronted by God suddenly and very unexpectedly while I was musing about sermons I'd preached on eternal hell. I heard the voice of the Lord say to me, 'Do you really believe that about me?'

In an instant, the answer leaped out of my spirit, 'No I don't Lord.'

I more or less carried this truth in my heart for many years...enjoying what it meant to me in my relationship with our Heavenly Father..........

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Am I correct in assuming that you think you have the right to question God?

You are correct in my position, because I get my info from Gods Word.

PraiseGod Barebones, the manic street preacher, also swears he gets his info from 'God's Word', but he's still utterly insane.

If Jesus tells us that God is to be understood by analogy as a father, then we're supposed to relate by what we know about fatherly qualities. If your child rejected your love, would you torture them forever?