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Featured The fatal flaw of Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Charlie24, Jan 8, 2020.

  1. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Read your Bible.
    Yes, indeed the word of God says every knee will bow. It is an important point, it is repeated 3 times.

    1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
    2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
    3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    Faithful believers will be bowing in faith, love and obedience. But the fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, liars etc. will be forced to their knees and forced to acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. This is another important point, it is repeated ten times in scripture.
    1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
    3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    5. Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    6. Acts of the apostles 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    7. Acts of the apostles 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
    8. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
    9. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
    10. Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
    What does “make your enemies your footstool” mean? Joshua tells us in Chap 10.
    Joshua 10:17
    (17) And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah.
    Joshua 10:22-24, 26
    22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
    23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
    24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
    26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
    What happened to the enemies of Joshua after they were made his footstool? They did not become part God’s chosen people.


     
  2. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Charles: Thank you muchly for beginning this wonderful alert of the danger of Abba gathering back into Himself what was estranged in the great schism of the fall.

    Do you know the difference between "at" and "in"? ?

    What Does Philippians 2:10 Mean? "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,."

    "That in the name of Jesus each knee be bowed, of heavenly things, [and] of earthly things, and of hell's..."

    A wee question for you Charles.

    Do you know the meaning of "en" in koine?
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    “The lake of fire will be abolished when it burns itself out because there is no evil left for it to feed upon, and the whole universe will throb with joy when the second death is abolished with the successful completion of the great and glorious work the Lord Jesus will bring to full fruition with the perfecting of all in the heavens and on earth.

    What a prospect!

    God’s purpose of the ages (Eph. 3:11) fulfilled in perfect accord with His irresistible will. ‘And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, ‘Unto Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for the ages of the ages (Rev. 5:13) – a grand Hallelujah Chorus echoing through the boundless universe and proclaiming that God IS Love.” -Chas. W. Cotton-
     
  4. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Despite Mssr Cotton's wonderful sounding narrative there is no, zero, none scriptural support for any of this.
     
  5. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Is the lake of fire abolished? Is the second death abolished? Not according to scripture.
    Revelation 21:4-8
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    Although God said in vs. 4 "there shall be no more death" and vs. 5 ""I make all thing new" in vs,8 he said eight groups of people would be thrown into the lake of fire which is still the second death.
    But the story does not end here.

    Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    Vs. 21 is the end.

     
  6. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Alive, alive-o?

    Not so fast der Alter, the super-abundant fulfilment of that prophecy is yet to come. It'll be consummated at the renewal of all things in Rev 21. More life to come der Alter, by all accounts that's who God is and what He does.

    That's a somewhat cryptic highlight der Alter, in support of your position. Ps 88 is a good one, it seems David is about to drop his bundle, lose all hope in terror and affliction. But this takes us back to some Ps 22 dereliction action, doesn't it? Which starts 'O Lord why hast thou forsaken me?' and comes back triumphant with 'All the ends of the world Shall remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You.' (Ps 22:27)

    Just what's happening throughout Revelation - conversion of despair to hope, of betrayal to faith, of fear and hate to love of God. Now that's the power of heaven der Alter. Amen.
     
  7. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Revelation 21:4-8
    4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    Although God said in vs. 4 "there shall be no more death" and vs. 5 "I make all things new." In vs. 8 God says eight groups of people will be cast into the lake of fire which is still the second death.
    Note vs. 7 there is a precondition, the converse is he that does not over come shall not inherit all things and I will not be his God and he will not be my son.
    You need to get a valid argument Ps 22:27 does not, cannot negate Ps 88 or any other verse.
    Psalms 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
    Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
    Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
    Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world Shall remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You
    Does this mean the dead past and future? No it means those still living. I don't think David forgot what he wrote and/or God's inspiration failed between Ps 22 and 88,
     
  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Ben: You must be mistaken. Despair leads to additional despair with a capital D in some peoples scope of Abba.

    Do you know, my friend, He is the propitiation for our sins, and not our sins only/monos, but for the sins of the whole world?

    Yup! The good, the bad, and the ugly of the whole broken world.

    Do you know that the word in koine "propitiation" is actually reconciliation?

    In Hebr. 2.17 "to expiate, to make propitiation for" (the object of the verb being sins); here the RV, "to make propitiation" is an important correction of the AV, "to make reconciliation."

    God, our Abba, is the reconciliation for the good, the bad, & the ugly of the whole world.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
  9. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Here is the complete definition of "ilasterion" translated "propitiation." There is not one single "reconciliaton" in this definition anywhere. The blue highlights indicate the sources the authors consulted to determine the definition. Contrary to forum rumors scholars don't just make up definitions. If you feel inclined to dispute this that will require consulting each one of the sources and proving that BDAG is incorrect.
    Quoting some UR "scholar" saying nuh-uh is meaningless.

    ἱλαστήριον, ου, τό (subst. neut. of ἱλαστήριος, ον [PFay 337 I, 3ff—II A.D.; 4 Macc 17:22; Jos., Ant. 16, 182]; s. prec. two entries). In Gr-Rom. lit. that which serves as an instrument for regaining the goodwill of a deity; concr. a ‘means of propitiation or expiation, gift to procure expiation’ (IKosPH, 81, 347 ὁ δᾶμος ὑπὲρ τᾶς Αὐτοκράτορος Καίσαρος θεοῦ υἱοῦ Σεβαστοῦ σωτηρίας θεοῖς ἱλαστήριον; ChronLind B 49 Ἀθάναι ἱλατήριον; Dio Chrys. 10 [11], 121. The mng. is uncertain in POxy 1985, 11).
    means of expiation, of Christ, ὃν προέθετο ὁ θεὸς ἱλαστήριον whom God set forth as a means of expiation Ro 3:25 (so REB; cp. CBreytenbach, Versöhnung, ’89, 168 [s. below]; difft. GFitzer, TZ 22, ’66, 161–83 and NRSV ‘sacrifice of atonement’). The unique feature relative to Gr-Rom. usage is the initiative taken by God to effect removal of impediments to a relationship with God’s self. In this pass. ἱ. has also been taken to mean
    place of propitiation (as Ezk 43:14, 17, 20; cp. also Luther’s ‘Gnadenstuhl’, and s. on Hb 9:5 below). For this view of ἱ. Ro 3:25 s. TManson, JTS 46, ’45, 1–10 (against him Breytenbach 167f.)—S. also Dssm., ZNW 4, 1903, 193–212 (s. EncBibl III, 3027–35); PFiebig and GKlein ibid. 341–44; SFraenkel, ibid. 5, 1904, 257f; CBruston, ibid. 7, 1906, 77–81; GottfKittel, StKr 80, 1907, 217–33; EdaSMarco, Il piano divino della salute in Ro 3:21–26: diss. Rome ’37; VTaylor, ET 50, ’39, 295–300; GBarton, ATR 21, ’39, 91f; WDavies, Paul and Rabbinic Judaism2 ’55, 227–42; ELohse, Märtyrer u. Gottesknecht ’55; LMorris, NTS 2, ’55/56, 33–43; DWhiteley, JTS n.s. 8, ’57, 240–55; DBailey, Jesus as the Mercy Seat: diss. Cambridge ’99 (ins).—The LXX uses ἱ. of the lid on the ark of the covenant, כַּפֹּרֶת, which was sprinkled w. the blood of the sin-offering on the Day of Atonement (Ex 25:16ff al. Likew. TestSol 21:2; Philo, Cher. 25, Fuga 100, Mos. 2, 95.—JStelma, Christus’ offer bij Pls [w. Philo] ’38). So Hb 9:5, transl. mercy-seat; for the history of this word s. OED s.v.—DELG s.v. ἱλάσκομαι 1. M-M s.v. ἱλαστήριος. EDNT. TW. Sv.
    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other ear
    ly Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 474). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
  10. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Saint FL, I stand corrected, and further, I'm forced to my knees to confess with perfunctory genuflections through gritted teeth. The Omega Plan must be death, destruction, torment, despair and doubling-down generally. What a perfect holy beautiful and virtuous thing it is to behold.

    Is that so - you're talking about hilasmos?
    Strong's Greek: 2434. ἱλασμός (hilasmos) -- propitiation

    The usage is different to the pagan 'appeasing sacrifice', it's atonement, which is done by God's reconciling the world to Him.

    Is that your thinking my friend?
     
  11. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    God is not Legalizmo the reactive robot, der Alter. Now follow the bouncing ball:
    (a) God wants all to be saved.
    (b) God has the power to save all.
    (c) God is good.
    (d) Good wins.

    So what must happen to those sinners in order for God's plan to be fulfilled? I'll give you a cryptic clue: After death, His Salvation is. Hm?
     
  12. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Saint Ben: You awakened some wonderful things within the Holy for me in the wee hours.

    This fellowship of our God is made up of many degrees of union & intimacy. Sainthood is something that must start with Him in His mighty call in the Lord Isous, where in that lonely place of being separated unto Him & His mighty purposes, the Call of all calls is awakened.

    The Song of the Spirit cannot be learned, it must be birthed by the Holy One (no one can learn this Song but the 144K).

    "To follow Jesus implies that we enter into a way of life that is given character and shape and direction by the one who calls us. To follow Jesus means picking up rhythms and ways of doing things that are often unsaid but always derivative from Jesus, formed by the influence of Jesus. To follow Jesus means that we can't separate what Jesus is saying from what Jesus is doing and the way that he is doing it. To follow Jesus is as much, or maybe even more, about feet as it is about ears and eyes." -Eugene H. Peterson-
     
  13. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Because with Jesus there is a perfect correspondence between word and deed. That is indeed something to pray and strive for, my friend.
     
  14. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Now all you have to do is provide me one verse, 2 or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, is speaking, not a prophet or a disciple, which states unequivocally that unrepentant sinners will be saved after death.
    Meanwhile I will quote Jesus, Himself stating just the opposite. Note, what Isaiah said about hope after death.

    John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
    Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
    Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
    Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
    Psalms 88:10-11
    10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
    11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
    Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
    Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
     
  15. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors and omissions. See definition of the Greek word translated "propitiation" from BDAG, above.
    • Online Bible FAQ
    Q:The Online Bible Strongs is not the same as my Exhaustive Strong’s Concordance. Why is that?
    A: We used the Strong's system but the actual Greek and Hebrew to implement the numbers. By doing this we corrected about 15000 errors in the Strong's concordance.
    Frequently Asked Questions - Online Bible Then click “The Online Bible Strongs is not the same as my Exhaustive Strong’s concordance.”
    • Rebuilding Strong’s time-honored concordance from the ground up, biblical research experts John Kohlenberger and James Swanson have achieved unprecedented accuracy and clarity. Longstanding errors have been corrected. Omissions filled in. Word studies simplified. Thoroughness and ease of use have been united and maximized.
    Zondervan Publishing the Strongest Strong’s.
    Book Details - Zondervan
    Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, The: 21st Century Edition
    Links to BDB, Hebrew and BAGD, Greek lexicons online.

    https://archive.org/details/BDBHebrewLexicon
    http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/main.htm
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Saint Ben: The fellowship of the mystery (Eph. 3:9) is the dimension to which saints are being immersed by His mighty baptism of water & fire. It is a communion & a fellowship that is completely outside the range of natural apprehension, made known by the God of Divine revelation.

    Fellowship = koinonia = communion/ fellowship.

    Mystery = musterion = unassisted natural apprehension made known by Theos revelation.

    My brother, we shall sing a song to one another, and those who Abba joins us to in the Song that cannot be learned, it must be born of Him & in Him!
     
  17. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    And Saint F.L., why natural man can never find God by his own devices, the darkness can never comprehend the light. How can a man be born a second time? asks the great rabbi. Only by the Spirit, so that none can boast, save in Christ.

    I hope and pray that all will join in this song before too long. Abba, Father, thrice holy and perfect above all things, you honour us despite our folly, you raise us from the pit to your heavenly sanctuary. May we glorify you in all our thoughts and deeds, for your righteousness and truth is beyond our comprehension and forever fills us with awe.
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Saint Ben: The fellowship of the mystery in an ongoing work of Abba which fills us with great awe. In every age there are those who are swept into the Fellowship by the unction of the Living One. With each addition to the Song of our lovely Lord, the chorus is expanded & expanded.

    In the fullness of times the expansion will have reached His Plan within Himself to perfection. Yes, Ben, that which He cherishes will be fully realized, complete & perfect to His satisfaction.

    Abba we love You! !

     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    News alert:

    A fellow poster has presented a replacement theology.

    In Adam ALL were made sinners. (All have sinned and come short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23) Not just many, everybody.

    Jesus offers salvation to all, but not all choose to receive it - very few in fact.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The unequal equation =

    All (pas) have sinned. ALL are "made sinners."

    Some (tis) are "made righteous."

    The foundation of discipleship =

    "You did NOT choose Me, I chose you"

    "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." -Romans 5:19-

    Replacement plan b=

    Adam 1 = “many made sinners”

    Last Adam = a few made righteous: very few.

    many = polus

    some = tis

    all = pas

    few = oligos
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
  20. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Paul used the word for "all", 375 times, 61 times in Romans. Do you suppose that he forgot the word for "all" when he wrote verse 12?
     
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