The fatal flaw of Universalism

FineLinen

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It's amazing that someone can repeatedly make such comments, be called out for it by having no scriptural support whatsoever, and continue to make the claim.

I think this was the reason it was declared heresy hundreds of years ago.

And what a wonderful "heresy" it is Charles!

The Beautiful Heresy

The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church

The First 500 Years

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years


The Earliest Creeds 5

II Early Christianity a Cheerful Religion 17

III Origin of Endless Punishment 36

IV Doctrines of Mitigation and Reserve 53

V Two Kindred Topics 61

VI The Apostles' Immediate Successors 70

VII The Gnostic Sects

The History of Universalism (Part Two) | Christian Universalist Association

https://www.amazon.com/Universalism-Prevailing-Doctrine-Christian-Hundred/dp/1631741195
 
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Charlie24

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And what a wonderful "heresy" it is Charles!

The Beautiful Heresy

The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church

The First 500 Years

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years


The Earliest Creeds 5

II Early Christianity a Cheerful Religion 17

III Origin of Endless Punishment 36

IV Doctrines of Mitigation and Reserve 53

V Two Kindred Topics 61

VI The Apostles' Immediate Successors 70

VII The Gnostic Sects

The History of Universalism (Part Two) | Christian Universalist Association

https://www.amazon.com/Universalism-Prevailing-Doctrine-Christian-Hundred/dp/1631741195

FL, you're not the only one who believes something in scripture but can't prove it.

There are some things in scripture I believe and can't prove it. I won't mention what they are, I keep it to myself, I don't want to be found guilty of teaching something to others in which I can't prove in His Word.

We will be held accountable for what we believe, and also what we teach others, which is a far more serious accountability.
 
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Saint Steven

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FL, you're not the only one who believes something in scripture but can't prove it.
Wow. Did you really write that? Seems to be a contradiction somewhere.
If FL "believes something in scripture", isn't that proof right there?
Or are only Damnationist "proof-texts" valid?
 
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Saint Steven

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There are some things in scripture I believe and can't prove it.
Wow. I can't make it through your post without finding gems to comment on.
Same reply as my previous post, but applied to you.
Are there really "things in scripture" that you "believe and can't prove"?
I want to know more.
 
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Saint Steven

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I don't want to be found guilty of teaching something to others in which I can't prove in His Word.
I thought you said you found them in scripture. ??? Isn't that proof on some level?
 
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Saint Steven

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We will be held accountable for what we believe, and also what we teach others, which is a far more serious accountability.
Seems like the best "fire" insurance would be duct tape across the mouth, keyboard and phone.

On that basis, what percentage of Christian Pastors/teachers do you think will make it? (avoid the eternal BBQ)
 
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Saint Steven

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FL, you're not the only one who believes something in scripture but can't prove it.

There are some things in scripture I believe and can't prove it. I won't mention what they are, I keep it to myself, I don't want to be found guilty of teaching something to others in which I can't prove in His Word.

We will be held accountable for what we believe, and also what we teach others, which is a far more serious accountability.
This is why a library is pretty much worthless. The Spirit ministers to our spirit a truth from scripture. BUT... we can't receive it because our library said "No" to the Spirit of the living God. Can't prove it by our library, which puts our library ABOVE the Spirit of the living God. (seems backwards)

Frankly, I think that is a MUCH bigger issue than not being able to prove it by my library.
The prophets of old gave us the scriptures, but where did THEY get the information?

IT WASN'T FROM THEIR LIBRARY --- THAT'S FOR SURE. I can prove that by my library though. Thank God for libraries. - lol

2 Peter 1:20-21
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
 
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Saint Steven

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This is why a library is pretty much worthless. The Spirit ministers to our spirit a truth from scripture. BUT... we can't receive it because our library said "No" to the Spirit of the living God. Can't prove it by our library, which puts our library ABOVE the Spirit of the living God. (seems backwards)

Frankly, I think that is a MUCH bigger issue than not being able to prove it by my library.
The prophets of old gave us the scriptures, but where did THEY get the information?

IT WASN'T FROM THEIR LIBRARY --- THAT'S FOR SURE. I can prove that by my library though. Thank God for libraries. - lol

2 Peter 1:20-21
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
It'll be hell to pay for this post, I suppose. But wait... didn't I prove it by my library? That was a close one. (sigh of relief)
 
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FineLinen

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FL, you're not the only one who believes something in scripture but can't prove it.

There are some things in scripture I believe and can't prove it. I won't mention what they are, I keep it to myself, I don't want to be found guilty of teaching something to others in which I can't prove in His Word.

We will be held accountable for what we believe, and also what we teach others, which is a far more serious accountability.

Dear Charles: I want to be held to full account for everything I proclaim in the Lord Jesus Christ! That is exactly what krema entails in koine & it begins with His House!

Krima begins at the House of God & extends to all broken children of Adam!

"Our God IS the Saviour of ALL mankind, especially those who believe. Command this & teach this."
 
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FineLinen

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Plan A =

"Our God IS the Saviour of ALL mankind, especially those who believe. Command this & teach this."

Alternate plan b minus=

Our God is a potential Saviour, and only for us who believe. Cross your fingers and hope this is true.
 
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Saint Steven

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Dear Charles: I want to be held to full account for everything I proclaim in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Imagine the accountability of those who boldly declare that our loving Abba is an angry volcano god. Yikes! --- Every idol word. (oops, I might have misspelled that - lol)
 
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Der Alte

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This is why a library is pretty much worthless. The Spirit ministers to our spirit a truth from scripture. BUT... we can't receive it because our library said "No" to the Spirit of the living God. Can't prove it by our library, which puts our library ABOVE the Spirit of the living God. (seems backwards)
Frankly, I think that is a MUCH bigger issue than not being able to prove it by my library.
The prophets of old gave us the scriptures, but where did THEY get the information?
IT WASN'T FROM THEIR LIBRARY --- THAT'S FOR SURE. I can prove that by my library though. Thank God for libraries. - lol
2 Peter 1:20-21
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
If and when God reveals you as a prophet to the rest of us mere mortals until then you just more pretenders. History is littered with the writings of self made prophets claiming they alone have the true truth and all the others are wrong; LDS. LW, UPCI, OP, WWCG, INC etc. etc.
You poo-poo peoples' libraries and call them worthless and in this thread alone you have quoted Nestle, Jerome, Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Schaff and Herzog. Correct me if I'm wrong but those are not scripture are they? Wait don't tell me when a non-UR quotes a historical or lexical source it is wrong but when a UR-ite quotes them it is right. Take a look at FL's posts they are full of quotes of supposed experts.
What I see here are people who don't know a hithpael from a horse or an aorist from an apple, who don't know and don't care that languages have grammar rules which govern how a word is translated. UR-ite look at a list of possible meanings in Strong's and eenie, meenie, minie, moe choose one which seems to support their UR assumptions.
 
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Der Alte

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Imagine the accountability of those who boldly declare that our loving Abba is an angry volcano god. Yikes! --- Every idol word. (oops, I might have misspelled that - lol)
Genesis 19:24-25, Genesis 7:23, Numbers 21:3, Deuteronomy 20:16-17, Deuteronomy 7:2, Deuteronomy 32:25, Jeremiah 13:14
 
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FineLinen

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Imagine the accountability of those who boldly declare that our loving Abba is an angry volcano god. Yikes! --- Every idol word. (oops, I might have misspelled that - lol)

Yikes indeed!!!

There are a few things I am beginning to grasp. Our God is the Source of the all, He is the Sustaining Force of the all, and He is the End of the all.

Yes, St. Steve, our God is the Source, Guide & Goal of the all/ the ta pante.

The Author IS the Finisher!
 
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No you try to keep up! This is the usual UR pie in the sky by and by evasion. 1 Cor 6:11 is addressed to and only includes the saved in the church at Corinth it does NOT include the unrighteous Paul just mentioned in vs, 9-10 whom Paul clearly excluded by saying "and such were some of you."

I am indeed cognisant as to whom Paul's audience was in that passage, der Alter. And that's why I said the sinners NEED the HS purification that had been received by the saints. Are you now denying that sinners need to be sanctified? I certainly hope not, my friend. That would not be keeping up at all.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams (Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17)

Does "shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God" mean "someday by and by an inheritance" in UR speak?

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. (Eph 2:13)

Heaven's gates are always open der Alter. The HS is always working, ppl are being drawn to Christ daily. No sheep left unrecovered. The Hound of Heaven is the consummate retriever.

That's our hope der Alter, and I commend it to you.
 
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Saint Steven

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And that's why I said the sinners NEED the HS purification that had been received by the saints.
They might need to be sanitized. - lol
Currently I'm only Santa-sized. - Ho, Ho, Ho

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
 
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They might need to be sanitized. - lol
Currently I'm only Santa-sized. - Ho, Ho, Ho

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Like the wire brush they use to scrub out gravel rash, the Biker's Friend (TM).
 
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FineLinen

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FL, you're not the only one who believes something in scripture but can't prove it.

There are some things in scripture I believe and can't prove it. I won't mention what they are, I keep it to myself, I don't want to be found guilty of teaching something to others in which I can't prove in His Word.

We will be held accountable for what we believe, and also what we teach others, which is a far more serious accountability.

FIFTEEN QUESTIONS FOR SOBER THOUGHT

1 If God will have all men to be saved, and if most men are lost, then how can God be supreme (1 Tim.2:3,4)?

2 If Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world, did He die in vain for the lost (1 John 2:2)?

3 If God is going to reconcile the universe through Christ, how can some be tormented forever (Col. 1:20)?

4 How can God, in Christ, gather all things together as one while billions remain eternally estranged (Eph.1:10)?

5 If all die in Adam, and a few are made alive in Christ, how can grace much more abound than sin (Rom. 5:20)?

6 If all men are condemned by Adam’s offense, why are not all justified by the one just award (Rom. 5:18)?

7 If all die in Adam, why shall not all be made alive in Christ (1 Cor. 15:22)?

8 How can every knee bow confessing Christ Lord, to God’s glory, unless reconciled (Phil. 2:10,11)?

9 If Christ only hath immortality, how can any of the dead be alive now (1 Tim. 6:14-16; 1 Cor. 15:53, 54)?

10 If the wicked go to hell as soon as they die, why are they raised and judged later (Rev. 20:11-15)?

11 Since the lake of fire is the second death, what happens to the wicked when death is destroyed (1 Cor.15:26)?

12 If “forever” means “eternity” what does “forever and ever” mean?

13 If God is Love and has all power, will He not find away to save all (1 Tim. 4:9-11)?

14 If Christ is to reign for ever and ever, what does it mean that He will abdicate His throne (Rev. 11:15; 1 Cor. 15:24)?

15 Will God ever actually become All in all (1 Cor.15:28)? -V.E. Jacobson-

Dear Charles:

The Scriptures are not something to prove! They are road marks to bring us to the Source, the Father of all fathers, dearest Abba.

Our Abba is the Saviour of all mankind. That all includes the elect first fruits also expressed as the "especially" of His great love & grace.

Yes Charles, every one of us must give account to Him as we stand in the Fire of His glorious Presence!

iu
 
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Der Alte

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>SM>I am indeed cognisant as to whom Paul's audience was in that passage, der Alter. And that's why I said the sinners NEED the HS purification that had been received by the saints. Are you now denying that sinners need to be sanctified? I certainly hope not, my friend. That would not be keeping up at all.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams (Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17)

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. (Eph 2:13)
Heaven's gates are always open der Alter. The HS is always working, ppl are being drawn to Christ daily. No sheep left unrecovered. The Hound of Heaven is the consummate retriever.
That's our hope der Alter, and I commend it to you.
I'm glad that you are cognizant of who Paul's audience was. Was he talking to people who were still alive or were they dead?
As you have noted Joel 2;28 was fulfilled in Acts of the apostles 2:13. I repeat my question was it fulfilled by people who were still alive or were they dead?
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.​



 
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Charlie24

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FIFTEEN QUESTIONS FOR SOBER THOUGHT

1 If God will have all men to be saved, and if most men are lost, then how can God be supreme (1 Tim.2:3,4)?

2 If Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world, did He die in vain for the lost (1 John 2:2)?

3 If God is going to reconcile the universe through Christ, how can some be tormented forever (Col. 1:20)?

4 How can God, in Christ, gather all things together as one while billions remain eternally estranged (Eph.1:10)?

5 If all die in Adam, and a few are made alive in Christ, how can grace much more abound than sin (Rom. 5:20)?

6 If all men are condemned by Adam’s offense, why are not all justified by the one just award (Rom. 5:18)?

7 If all die in Adam, why shall not all be made alive in Christ (1 Cor. 15:22)?

8 How can every knee bow confessing Christ Lord, to God’s glory, unless reconciled (Phil. 2:10,11)?

9 If Christ only hath immortality, how can any of the dead be alive now (1 Tim. 6:14-16; 1 Cor. 15:53, 54)?

10 If the wicked go to hell as soon as they die, why are they raised and judged later (Rev. 20:11-15)?

11 Since the lake of fire is the second death, what happens to the wicked when death is destroyed (1 Cor.15:26)?

12 If “forever” means “eternity” what does “forever and ever” mean?

13 If God is Love and has all power, will He not find away to save all (1 Tim. 4:9-11)?

14 If Christ is to reign for ever and ever, what does it mean that He will abdicate His throne (Rev. 11:15; 1 Cor. 15:24)?

15 Will God ever actually become All in all (1 Cor.15:28)? -V.E. Jacobson-

Dear Charles:

The Scriptures are not something to prove! They are road marks to bring us to the Source, the Father of all fathers, dearest Abba.

Our Abba is the Saviour of all mankind. That all includes the elect first fruits also expressed as the "especially" of His great love & grace.

Yes Charles, every one of us must give account to Him as we stand in the Fire of His glorious Presence!

and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they did not repent of their works.

The answer to most of your questions is found in Rev. 16:11.

"and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they did not repent of their works."

Man has choice and some will simply not accept God.
 
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