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It is all predetermined - just that God being omniscient and omnipotent knows how to shape our will according to His will. He will draw all men unto him (Jn 12:32). The word for "draw" is helkysō which also means drag, as in drag into the temple/court, drag their nets, etc. We are like the fishes who struggle and resist against the net but Jesus will use his net to drag us to himself and transform us, after which we become fishers of men.Sorry if I am being thick-headed. As I said, I am still grappling with this. Toss me a grappling hook and I may be able to get out of this hole. - lol
We make choices constantly, and that is significant, whether human vanity or not. But I guess I was pointing at the larger issue of our destination in the afterlife. The sheep or goat decision. Granted, no one can come unless they are drawn/called, yet a decision is required.
I'm heading out the door, I'll catch up later. God bless.
But the draw can only be from the well drawn from. M=ECsqrdIt is all predetermined - just that God being omniscient and omnipotent knows how to shape our will according to His will. He will draw all men unto him (Jn 12:32). The word for "draw" is helkysō which also means drag, as in drag into the temple/court, drag their nets, etc. We are like the fishes who struggle and resist against the net but Jesus will use his net to drag us to himself and transform us, after which we become fishers of men.
Thanks, what an awesome post. Much appreciated. Wow.Perhaps this synopsis will help:
Calvinism: God is strong enough to save everyone + God does not want to save everyone = everyone is not saved.
Arminianism: God is not strong enough to save everyone + God does want to save everyone = everyone is not saved.
Universalism: God is strong enough to save everyone + God does want to save everyone = everyone is saved.
Quoted from David Burnfield's book Patristic Universalism which I highly recommend. Also may want to check out David Bentley Hart's That All Shall Be Saved. I haven't read this book but Hart is no slouch.
sorry, i'm horrible with mathBut the draw can only be from the well drawn from. M=ECsqrd
That's good, thanks.It is all predetermined - just that God being omniscient and omnipotent knows how to shape our will according to His will. He will draw all men unto him (Jn 12:32). The word for "draw" is helkysō which also means drag, as in drag into the temple/court, drag their nets, etc. We are like the fishes who struggle and resist against the net but Jesus will use his net to drag us to himself and transform us, after which we become fishers of men.
And don't drink the water.Every well, turned on it’s side, is a tunnel *_*
That is certainly an interesting twist on what Jesus said. Do you think Jesus is saying everyone is going to be cast into hell or everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven?Always good to hear from you der Alter, and feel free to present some material that hasn't been addressed in past threads.
Just on that point, Jesus reveals the oral tradition which apparently taught a hell of eternal conscious torment was a little off-base.
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, with what will you season it? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with one another. (Mk 9:47-50)
So we see here the warnings and threats customarily associated with hell. But then Jesus takes hellfire and says 'everyone' will experience it, and moreover, it's 'salting' which is 'good' for you and necessary. What?! He's 'subverting the dominant paradigm'! He's talking the purifying power of holy fire and righteous judgment. The use of 'salt' to produce harmonious relations.
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows (Mt 10:27-30)
What's he saying here? Don't be afraid of man or the devil, fear God who can destroy your soul, but don't be a birdbrain, you're of incalculable value to Him, He's not gonna do that.
Again, Jesus starts with the assumption and then reveals God's truth is higher, that He's far more gracious and merciful than we can ever anticipate.
Hope this clears things up for you der Alter, and remember the beautiful feet of those who carry the gospel are not necessarily pedicured.
Evidently God wants some of His creation to live a life of sin so He can punish them for some period of time in fire before He "draws" them to Himself.It is all predetermined - just that God being omniscient and omnipotent knows how to shape our will according to His will. He will draw all men unto him (Jn 12:32). The word for "draw" is helkysō which also means drag, as in drag into the temple/court, drag their nets, etc. We are like the fishes who struggle and resist against the net but Jesus will use his net to drag us to himself and transform us, after which we become fishers of men.
So I guess Universalism shows there's a light at the end of the tunnel.Every well, turned on it’s side, is a tunnel *_*
I did a bit of research and found this book review video.Perhaps this synopsis will help:
Calvinism: God is strong enough to save everyone + God does not want to save everyone = everyone is not saved.
Arminianism: God is not strong enough to save everyone + God does want to save everyone = everyone is not saved.
Universalism: God is strong enough to save everyone + God does want to save everyone = everyone is saved.
Quoted from David Burnfield's book Patristic Universalism which I highly recommend. Also may want to check out David Bentley Hart's That All Shall Be Saved. I haven't read this book but Hart is no slouch.
Oh, I remember this discussion from earlier.
You are talking about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the unpardonable sin. Yet...
- You have no idea what the sin is exactly.
- You don't know if you may have committed it.
- You believe you will burn forever if you have. (because it is unforgivable)
Am I missing anything here?
No, completely relevant.All completely irrelevant, the fact still remains that anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. We can only speculate on what we think blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is because Jesus never actually said exactly what it is. An honest preacher of the gospel shouldn’t be afraid to say the words “I don’t know.”
All completely irrelevant, the fact still remains that anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. We can only speculate on what we think blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is because Jesus never actually said exactly what it is. An honest preacher of the gospel shouldn’t be afraid to say the words “I don’t know.”
All completely irrelevant, the fact still remains that anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. We can only speculate on what we think blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is because Jesus never actually said exactly what it is. An honest preacher of the gospel shouldn’t be afraid to say the words “I don’t know.”
We love you too, Charlie.They are all really nice guys but when you present a truth, they all gather around the wagons and respond with nonsense. It's a hopeless endeavor.
They are all really nice guys but when you present a truth, they all gather around the wagons and respond with nonsense. It's a hopeless endeavor.
That is certainly an interesting twist on what Jesus said. Do you think Jesus is saying everyone is going to be cast into hell or everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven?
Or did Jesus say if some part of you causes you to sin it is better to lose that part and enter the kingdom of God rather THAN be cast into hell where the fire is not quenched.
There is an either/or choice, not everybody one way or the other. Enter the kingdom of God or cast into hell.
Here is what Paul had to say about the fire.
1 Corinthians 3:13 the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day of judgment will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's action
1 Corinthians 3:15 If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire.
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