The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism

[HardHead]

It does not.

This part, I find, is interesting. How does this idea work?

Do you see that, according to dispensational theology, heaven is to be brought to earth as in it is 'here' vs. 'out there' somewhere?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He says "Such as". There was no event such as that. The Jewish economy was ended. The priesthood was finished. The records office that held their genealogies was burnt by the seditious, Those who had recently worn the sacred robes of the priesthood and their bodies were thrown naked into the street and trampled upon. The old testament system of worhip was abolished. Can you tell me if there was any tribulation such as that?

So it is a future event?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nowhere does it say that the abomination of desolation is an image of the beast. Luke tells us that it is the surrounding armies that would cause the desolation of Jerusalem. I have a copy of an old page of the 1611 King James Bible in the old black letter script. Which in Daniel wher it mentions the sbomination of desolation, the margin says "or desolating armies". That was long before dispensationalism was thought of.

False narratives could exist even at the time of the original King James Bible.
The apocrypha is one false narrative that was inserted in the KJV (When it should not have been there). Again, Jesus says,

"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not,..." (Mark 13:14). The abomination of desolation is described as an "it" and not as a group of unbelievers.

Jesus says that this "IT" is standing where OUGHT NOT to be.
There is no separation between Jews and Gentiles anymore after the cross.
All can now go directly to Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You have reversed that, in scripture it reads "the people of the prince."

Anyway they destroyed the temple and city, so it is fulfilled.

It doesn't change what it says if it is reversed. It means the same thing. If I say "the cat of the Smith family," it means the same as saying "the Smith family's cat." The "he" is the "prince" in the phrase: "people of the prince." It is the immediate context. The people of the prince were the Romans who destroyed the Jewish temple in 70AD. The prince of the Romans is the prince of the power of the air.

 

[Dale]

Yes, the Gospel of the Kingdom, being under the administration of the Law of Moses, certainly required works, as the verses you quoted from John is saying.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is actually a good news found throughout the Old Testament. All Jews who study the OT are well aware of it.

Its the promise of a king that will come in the future thru the line of King David.

Jeremiah 23:5 KJV Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

Luke 1 NLT 30 “Don’t be afraid, Mary,” the angel told her, “for you have found favor with God! 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32 He will be very great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 And he will reign over Israel[c] forever; his Kingdom will never end!”

God's plan to establish the Messianic kingdom was no secret to the Jews of Christ's day. The kingdom is the very theme of Old Testament prophecy and is described there in great detail. Jeremiah 23 is to me, the clearest passage describing that good news (Gospel of the Kingdom)

Zechariah’s, father of John the Baptist, proclamation

Luke 1 (NLT)
68 “Praise the Lord, the God of Israel,
because he has visited and redeemed his people.
69 He has sent us a mighty Savior[h]
from the royal line of his servant David,
70 just as he promised
through his holy prophets long ago.
71 Now we will be saved from our enemies
and from all who hate us.
72 He has been merciful to our ancestors
by remembering his sacred covenant—
73 the covenant he swore with an oath
to our ancestor Abraham.

Note all the references in this proclaimation from Zechariah, who was filled with the Holy Spirit, was to Israel and the Jews. There is absolutely zero mention of the Gentiles.

Guojing: "Yes, the Gospel of the Kingdom, being under the administration of the Law of Moses, certainly required works, as the verses you quoted from John is saying."

You associate the "Gospel" with the "Kingdom" and the "law of Moses." Jesus did not associate the Gospel or the Kingdom with Old Testament law. In response to your question, I quoted what the New Testament does tell us about the teaching of John the Baptist. John taught the need for honesty. If he said anything about kosher food and sacrificing at the Temple, it hasn't come down to us. Even under grace, God still points us to ideal behavior. The Last Supper laid down the most important ceremony for the New Covenant, along with Baptism. At the Last Supper, Jesus gave the Apostles the commandment to "Love one another." The grace that comes with the New Covenant doesn't mean a complete lack of rules. It does mean more emphasis on interpersonal relations.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, the wailing wall stands to this day. This was a wall that was a part of the temple. So the temple was not fully destroyed. Jesus said that all the stones of the temple will be thrown down. This happens after the end of the 7 year tribulation in the future. The Jewish temple has yet to be built. No doubt when it is built, many here will just ignore its place in prophecy.

 

[David Kent]

It doesn't change what it says if it is reversed. It means the same thing. If I say "the cat of the Smith family," it means the same as saying "the Smith family's cat." The "he" is the "prince" in the phrase: "people of the prince." It is the immediate context. The people of the prince were the Romans who destroyed the Jewish temple in 70AD. The prince of the Romans is the prince of the power of the air.

It absolutely does change the meaning. The prince of the people was Titus, the people of the prince were the Roman soldiers who destroyed the temple against his orders. It was not Titus who destroyed the temple, it was his soldiers.

 

[David Kent]

Also, the wailing wall stands to this day. This was a wall that was a part of the temple. So the temple was not fully destroyed. Jesus said that all the stones of the temple will be thrown down. This happens after the end of the 7 year tribulation in the future. The Jewish temple has yet to be built. No doubt when it is built, many here will just ignore its place in prophecy.

Well Josephus says that Titus ordered the foundations to be dug up so there would be no evidence of the temple having been there.
In the Bar Kokhba revolt in AD 132-136, the Jews planned to rebuild the temple but seem to have stopped when Hadrian offered to build the temple. But the jews revolted when they realised that Hadrian planned a pagan temple. The wailing wall is believed to be from that period as the stones seem to be a mixture from different dates.

 

[Guojing]

Guojing: "Yes, the Gospel of the Kingdom, being under the administration of the Law of Moses, certainly required works, as the verses you quoted from John is saying."

You associate the "Gospel" with the "Kingdom" and the "law of Moses." Jesus did not associate the Gospel or the Kingdom with Old Testament law. In response to your question, I quoted what the New Testament does tell us about the teaching of John the Baptist. John taught the need for honesty. If he said anything about kosher food and sacrificing at the Temple, it hasn't come down to us. Even under grace, God still points us to ideal behavior. The Last Supper laid down the most important ceremony for the New Covenant, along with Baptism. At the Last Supper, Jesus gave the Apostles the commandment to "Love one another." The grace that comes with the New Covenant doesn't mean a complete lack of rules. It does mean more emphasis on interpersonal relations.

Matthew 5:19 sums up clearly the connection between the 2.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[David Kent]

So it is a future event?

Absolutely not.

 

[Guojing]

*Sigh* I am aware that animal sacrifices continued by the Jews, but GOD no longer accepted them anymore because Jesus is now our Passover Lamb. I mean, why on Earth do you think the temple veil was torn? For nothing!? Think.



The early Jewish believers were not without flaws or problems in understand God's plan or will.
Actually, GOD stopped Paul from going through with the Jewish Purification rite. I mean, do you think the animal sacrifices should be done again if the Jewish temple is rebuilt?

You have to ask yourself a simple question, "If the Law of Moses was indeed no longer required immediately after the death burial and resurrection of Jesus, why didn't Jesus tell his disciples that?"

Instead he commanded them to teach others to "obey everything he had commanded them to do", which in the context of Matthew, Jesus enforced the Law of Moses and even amplified it.

My point is that the Jews still had a one year extension to accept him as their Messiah, aka the Gospel of the Kingdom. Jesus prophesied it in Luke 13:6-9.

 

[David Kent]

Also, the wailing wall stands to this day. This was a wall that was a part of the temple. So the temple was not fully destroyed. Jesus said that all the stones of the temple will be thrown down. This happens after the end of the 7 year tribulation in the future. The Jewish temple has yet to be built. No doubt when it is built, many here will just ignore its place in prophecy.

Where in scripture does it say the temple has to be built?

 

[Guojing]

Paul told them in Hebrews.

Yes, and Hebrews was written years after the resurrection.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Where in scripture does it say the temple has to be built?

Jesus talks about the temple being thrown down (all the stones will be thrown down) before the end comes with His 2nd return. Just read the Olivet discourse again.

 

[Guojing]

There is no evidence whatsoever that Jewish Christians were expected to continue in the Old Law. Not only would God not set up a common system whereby a person of one nation had to follow different laws than someone of another nation, there are several epistles which explicitly state that the old law is dead and returning to it is a repudiation of Christ's sacrifice.

Acts 21 account not not clear enough to you?

Acts 21:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well Josephus says that Titus ordered the foundations to be dug up so there would be no evidence of the temple having been there.
In the Bar Kokhba revolt in AD 132-136, the Jews planned to rebuild the temple but seem to have stopped when Hadrian offered to build the temple. But the jews revolted when they realised that Hadrian planned a pagan temple. The wailing wall is believed to be from that period as the stones seem to be a mixture from different dates.

It does not mean Titus was successful in his task. He also may not have regarded the outer court wall as being a part of the temple, either.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Acts 21:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.[/QUOTE]

Funny then that Paul who was there, stated that the Mosaic law was no longer in effect and that it was against Christ to go back to the law.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Acts 21 account not not clear enough to you?

Acts 21:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Taken out of context. The council of Messianic Jews made a mistake. Paul made a mistake. The council of Messianic Jews wanted Paul to convince the Jews that they were for the Old Law by going through the Purification rite, but this was not a part of God's desire for them. God stopped Paul from going through with the animal sacrifice (as a part of the Purification rite). Paul says to the Galatians that if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). Paul is obviously referring to the Law of Moses (the 613) and he is not referring to New Covenant Laws like: The Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or the Royal Law (James 2:8), or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), or the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25).

Acts sometimes records the mistakes of the early believers. They were not perfect 100% of the time. Some of them had to learn by their mistakes.

 

[Guojing]

In the Greek, the words imply flood, almost exactly the words used in Daniel 9 which state that the destruction of the city would be 'as a flood." βδέλυγμα - bdelugma - deluge.



Zealous of Christ's law, not Mosaic law.

You are reading into the Bible, Acts 21 specifically stated it was physical circumcision and the customs of Moses.

Look you are free to disagree with my point. I understand people rarely change their minds in Internet debate. Cheers.

 

[Hank77]

The people of the prince are those he used to bring his wrath on those who rejected and murdered him. Yes, Christians are also the people of the prince, but in this context it's clearly talking about the people he would use to destroy the city.

Josephus wrote that the Christians had all fled the city and went to the mountains of Pella before the Romans attacked. Jesus had told them to 'flee to the mountains'.
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: