The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism

[Al Touthentop]

I reject Dispensationalism and I also reject Replacement Theology. I do believe that God has plans for Israel in the future, but I don't believe that Jews have an alternate means of salvation.

You don't have to believe in Replacement Theology to believe in a spiritual Kingdom of God.

What plans? Paul wrote that the true Jews were those who accepted the gospel and lived by faith. The plans for Israel were completed weren't they? Are there prophecies about Israel that are still unfulfilled?

 

[Al Touthentop]

I am not saying that the 70AD temple destruction happens in the 70th week. I believe it happens in between the 69th week, and the 70th week. Even Christ's death (Which is before the 70AD temple destruction) happens in between the 69th week, and the 70th week. So you believe the "people of the prince" are the Romans who destroyed the temple in 70AD? Yes? I just want to make sure what you believe here. When does this 70AD temple destruction take place in the 70 weeks?

Well the text actually indicates that it occurs after the 70th week. It says "after this" (the things that would happen in the 70th week). It happened, in week terms, 5 or 6 weeks after the 70th week, in AD 70-74. It couldn't have happened in the 69th week because that would put the destruction of Israel somewhere around AD 33.

Christ's death happens in the 70th week just as the prophecy specifies. His "cut off" occurs after the 69th week, in the 70th week, fulfilling the words of God exactly as was predicted. It isn't for another 40 years that the city is destroyed by Vespasian.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Al Touthentop

Please keep in mind that if you believe the "people of the prince" are the Romans who destroyed the Jewish temple in 70AD, then the continued context of the "he" (i.e. prince) in the next verse is referring to the prince of the Romans who destroyed the Jewish temple (Which is the prince of the power of the air).

27 And he [The "he" is the "prince" of the people mentioned in verse 26] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [make a treaty with the Jews and others in the final 7 years]: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [this prince will stop the Jewish sacrifices in the temple], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27).

So the word "he" is the immediate context of the "people of the prince."

 

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@Al Touthentop

Also, do you believe Jesus is the One who makes the abomination of desolations?
In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus says, "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not,..." (Mark 13:14).

What is "standing where it ought not" to be?

This to me is clearly the statue of the Antichrist that He will enforce people to worship in the Jewish Temple, i.e. the image of the beast. Naturally, 1/4th of the Earth will be killed who do not accept the Mark, and or who refuse to worship this image. Can you tell me when 1/4th of the Earth was killed in human history? You can't because it has not happened yet.

 

[Al Touthentop]

@Al Touthentop

Please keep in mind that if you believe the "people of the prince" are the Romans who destroyed the Jewish temple in 70AD, then the continued context of the "he" (i.e. prince) in the next verse is referring to the prince of the Romans who destroyed the Jewish temple (Which is the prince of the power of the air).

27 And he [The "he" is the "prince" of the people mentioned in verse 26] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [make a treaty with the Jews and others in the final 7 years]: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [this prince will stop the Jewish sacrifices in the temple], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27).

"make a treaty with the Jews and others in the final 7 years" - (70th week)

Jesus died and made a new covenant, in the 70th week just as the prophecy foretells. The confirmation of this was his resurrection.

"this prince will stop the Jewish sacrifices in the temple"

The new law puts the old law of sacrifice to death. When Jesus died on the cross, he caused the effectiveness of the old law's sacrifices to cease.

Later, as it also indicates in the prophecy, he used the Romans to make the temple desolate. Not one stone was left on top of another.

If we're still waiting for this stuff to happen, we reject the prophecy and the covenant it speaks of. We reject Christ himself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"make a treaty with the Jews and others in the final 7 years" - (70th week)

Jesus died and made a new covenant, in the 70th week just as the prophecy foretells. The confirmation of this was his resurrection.

"this prince will stop the Jewish sacrifices in the temple"

The new law puts the old law of sacrifice to death. When Jesus died on the cross, he caused the effectiveness of the old law's sacrifices to cease.

Later, as it also indicates in the prophecy, he used the Romans to make the temple desolate. Not one stone was left on top of another.

If we're still waiting for this stuff to happen, we reject the prophecy and the covenant it speaks of. We reject Christ himself.

But you are ignoring the immediate context. The "he" is in reference to the "prince" who is the "people of the prince." You said before that the "people of the Prince" is in reference to the Romans who destroyed the Jewish temple. If you were to keep following the IMMEDIATE CONTEXT this is in reference to the "prince of the power of the air" because the prince of the Romans is the devil, and it is not Jesus.

 

[Al Touthentop]

@Al Touthentop

Also, do you believe Jesus is the One who makes the abomination of desolations?
In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus says, "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not,..." (Mark 13:14).

What is "standing where it ought not" to be?

This to me is clearly the statue of the Antichrist that He will enforce people to worship in the Jewish Temple, i.e. the image of the beast. Naturally, 1/4th of the Earth will be killed who do not accept the Mark, and or who refuse to worship this image. Can you tell me when 1/4th of the Earth was killed in human history? You can't because it has not happened yet.

It refers to the destruction of the temple. Before and during the siege, Jews who were no longer priests, Jews who were never priests and later Roman soldiers committed murder in the holiest part of the temple.

 

[Al Touthentop]

But you are ignoring the immediate context. The "he" is in reference to the "prince" who is the "people of the prince." You said before that the "people of the Prince" is in reference to the Romans who destroyed the Jewish temple. If you were to keep following the IMMEDIATE CONTEXT this is in reference to the "prince of the power of the air" because the prince of the Romans is the devil, and it is not Jesus.

The immediate context is the prince, referred to earlier in the passage as Messiah the prince. It would be terrible grammar indeed to introduce a brand new character with the same label used previously and expect the reader to derive his identity correctly. That label prince was for clarification, not confusion. Its the same person. The capitalization is not in the original text.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It refers to the destruction of the temple. Before and during the siege, Jews who were no longer priests, Jews who were never priests and later Roman soldiers committed murder in the holiest part of the temple.

No, it is referring to this:

• Revelation 13:14-15

They... make an image to the beast, that had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The immediate context is the prince, referred to earlier in the passage as Messiah the prince. It would be terrible grammar indeed to introduce a brand new character with the same label used previously and expect the reader to derive his identity correctly. That label prince was for clarification, not confusion. Its the same person. The capitalization is not in the original text.

No. Again, the immediate context is the "people of the prince." Read it again. The last person identified as an individual prior to the "he" is the "prince of the people" (Who destroyed the Jewish temple).

 

[Al Touthentop]

No, it is referring to this:

• Revelation 13:14-15

They... make an image to the beast, that had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

This says nothing about the temple here. Your connection to this from Matt 24, has no basis.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This says nothing about the temple here. Your connection to this from Matt 24, has no basis.

Jesus refers to the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24. He says that this Abomination of Desolation is standing where it ought no to be. This is the image of the beast in the Jewish temple in the future.

 

[Al Touthentop]

No. Again, the immediate context is the "people of the prince." Read it again. The last person identified as an individual prior to the "he" is the "prince of the people" (Who destroyed the Jewish temple).

Jesus destroyed the temple. The prince of the people is the same person as Messiah the Prince. The capitalization in some translations is not an indication that the capitalized prince is different than the uncapitalized prince. Same guy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus destroyed the temple. The prince of the people is the same person as Messiah the Prince. The capitalization in some translations is not an indication that the capitalized prince is different than the uncapitalized prince. Same guy.

Before you said the Romans destroyed the temple.
So the people of the prince are Christians or disembodied saints now?

 

[Al Touthentop]

Jesus refers to the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24. He says that this Abomination of Desolation is standing where it ought no to be. This is the image of the beast in the Jewish temple in the future.

Like I said, you have no basis by which to connect these two passages. Jesus IS the rebuilt temple. There is no prophecy which has yet to be fulfilled on that subject. There will be no physical temple rebuilt. The temple was rebuilt when Christ was resurrected. John explains that in his gospel.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Like I said, you have no basis by which to connect these two passages. Jesus IS the rebuilt temple. There is no prophecy which has yet to be fulfilled on that subject. There will be no physical temple rebuilt. The temple was rebuilt when Christ was resurrected. John explains that in his gospel.

You said before that the Romans destroyed the temple, and then later you said that Jesus destroyed the temple. Which is it?

 

[Al Touthentop]

Before you said the Romans destroyed the temple.
So the people of the prince are Christians or disembodied saints now?

The people of the prince are those he used to bring his wrath on those who rejected and murdered him. Yes, Christians are also the people of the prince, but in this context it's clearly talking about the people he would use to destroy the city.

 

[Al Touthentop]

You said before that the Romans destroyed the temple, and then later you said that Jesus destroyed the temple. Which is it?

Both. Just like it is both when God brings the Assyrians in to capture Israel.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The people of the prince are those he used to bring his wrath on those who rejected and murdered him. Yes, Christians are also the people of the prince, but in this context it's clearly talking about the people he would use to destroy the city.

While God can use Assyria for His purposes, Assyria is no more the people of the Prince, any more than the Romans are. That is a huge stretch in thinking there. Unbelievers are not the people of the Prince.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

These kinds of interpretations are strained at best.
Moving on.

May God bless you.