The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism

[sovereigngrace]

So that period of time, to you, serves no real purpose actually?

What time?

 

[Guojing]

What time?

There will, in my opinion, be a rejection and subjugation of the operation of the Word and the Spirit in this antichrist world before He comes, during Satan's little season (Rev 20) and as the mystery of iniquity is released (2 Thess 2).

 

[sovereigngrace]

Nevermind!

 

[sovereigngrace]

It is the devil's final throw before he is destroyed, the general resurrection/judgement occurs and perfection is introduced.

 

[Guojing]

It is the devil's final throw before he is destroyed, the general resurrection/judgement occurs and perfection is introduced.

What purpose does it serve for some Christians to have to undergo that on Earth then?

No purpose other than to make them suffer, according to you.

 

[sovereigngrace]

What purpose does it serve for some Christians to have to undergo that on Earth then?

No purpose other than to make them suffer, according to you.

Why have God's elect suffered from the beginning? Because it goes with the territory of living on a fallen earth where sinners and sin, death and decay, Satan and his demons still exist. Satan knows his time is short. This is his last throw! But when Jesus comes they will all end with His appearing. The Second Coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old, temporal, sinful and corrupt. His return introduces the beginning of all things new, eternal, righteous and God-glorifying.

Romans 8:19-23 states, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal. ays, "hy would I want to run away from such a precious provision?ally is love.es awe of Him.

Peter speaking to the religious Jews in Acts 3:19-21 confirms the concluding nature of the Second Advent, saying, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he (God) shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution (apokatastasis or reconstitution) of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world (or aion or age) began.”

This text takes us from the beginning to the end. It shows us that from the beginning of time God’s people have been looking of the glorious climactic return of Christ to usher in the end of time and decomposition. This covers the whole old covenant and new covenant era. This confirms that this age began” at the beginning of time, and terminates when Jesus comes. This totally negates the Preterist position.

We have seen from various Scripture that “the beginning” of this age kicked in at the beginning of creation. Well, Scripture also equally delineates that the end of this age will occur at the renewing of creation, the time when Jesus returns to make all things new.

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming (parousia). Then cometh the end (or télos), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

The “coming” of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

 

[jerry kelso]

Please give me time to reply.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 is probably the most commonly presented reading in the Bible forwarded to support a Pretrib rapture. However, it is a text that is so often misunderstood and therefore misinterpreted. In fact, there is a lot imputed into it that is frankly not there. There is a lot that is overlooked that should be carefully noted. We should therefore start our study by considering this important text.

There is one thing that every true Bible student will be in agreement on and that is that this passage is a vivid record of Christ’s coming and what accompanies it. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

One thing we should acknowledge as we dissect this text is that “the coming of the Lord” is synonymous here with “the day of the Lord.” Moreover, this passage is exhorting the Church to remain watchful as this final day approaches. Man should prepare himself for this great and terrible day because it will spell the end of time, the end of the wicked and the end of all rebellion.

After comforting the Church, Paul then warns it: “Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”

After outlining the awfulness of that day for those left behind, the suddenness of its arrival, and the fact that none left behind will escape, Paul makes clear that we are not ignorant of this day and will therefore not be caught unprepared. Christ is going to rescue us – by being caught up – from this awful sudden and total destruction that is going to destroy the wicked. Clearly, we are here when the coming of Christ arrives as a thief in the night, but are prepared and, as a consequence, rescued to escape the awful destruction.

This passage perfectly correlates with passages like Ephesians 1:9-10, 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13, Jude 1:14 and Revelation 19:7-14. They relate to the one final future coming of Christ. Pretribulationists and Prewrathers employ this narrative as supposed proof that Christ is coming in a two-stage return, firstly, at ‘the rapture’ to the sky for his saints and, secondly, at the revelation of Christ (which they say is different from the rapture and is a third coming 7 years later) which they argue involves the Lord’s ‘coming to the earth with His saints’. However, one of the first matters that we see encounter in this passage, and which eliminates much of the error circulating within pretribulationist circles today, is the fact that when Christ comes again it is “with” and “for” His saints in one glorious single second coming. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

Therefore, there are not two separate comings or parousias of the Lord separated by a notional 7-year period – one for His Church and another with His Church. In fact, nowhere in this reading does it even vaguely intimate such. The second coming (parousia) of the Lord will see the immediate and complete rescue of the saved and the immediate and complete destruction of the damned (ruling out any notion that the tribulation comes after the second advent).

The un-indoctrinated Bible scholar must surely admit that this text oozes definite climactic detail. It first of all shows our Lord coming unexpectedly; it also reveals the fate that befalls all those on earth – both saved and unsaved. Whilst this is shown to be a day anticipated by God’s people, it is one that catches the wicked unawares. After the removal of the righteous all that awaits those left behind is total “destruction” (1 Thessalonians 5:3).

The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s coming) is interestingly the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant cry. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies.

sovereigngrace,

1. First, I see you couldn’t find 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 directly in Revelation 20:4-6.

2. As far as your expose on 1 Thessalonians 4:14- 17 is nothing new but your first mistake is that you conflate the two issues of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 5:1 by making them one.
They are not. Why? Because the word but, is transitive and starts another thought and subject.
But of the times and seasons ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
They understood what the Day of the Lord was.
So your whole case falls at the start because it is 2 comings and they knew about the Day of the Lord not the rapture 1 Corinthians 15:51; Behold I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the last Trump for the trump shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. This is the same of the living and dead the same as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 which Paul calls a mystery.

2. The Day of the Lord was nothing new so it doesn’t mesh with 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.
So you are wrong from the get go.
Jerry Kelso

 

[sovereigngrace]

sovereigngrace,

1. First, I see you couldn’t find 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 directly in Revelation 20:4-6.

2. As far as your expose on 1 Thessalonians 4:14- 17 is nothing new but your first mistake is that you conflate the two issues of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 5:1 by making them one.
They are not. Why? Because the word but, is transitive and starts another thought and subject.
But of the times and seasons ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
They understood what the Day of the Lord was.
So your whole case falls at the start because it is 2 comings and they knew about the Day of the Lord not the rapture 1 Corinthians 15:51; Behold I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the last Trump for the trump shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. This is the same of the living and dead the same as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 which Paul calls a mystery.

2. The Day of the Lord was nothing new so it doesn’t mesh with 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.
So you are wrong from the get go.
Jerry Kelso

Once again you avoid every point and every Scripture presented. This is the classic Pretrib MO. They do so because their doctrine is unbiblical.

There are no chapters in 1 Thessalonians. As you can see 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 is speaking about the same unitary final event in history. After it, we are into eternity. There is no secret rapture or imaginary 7 years trib (or any period of trib) here or anywhere else in Scripture. It was invented around 1830. It is foisted on the sacred text by man.

If I am wrong, show me the 7 years trib here?

Once again, the first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove." You have proved nothing yet! Also, you have no answer to the rebuttals. Pretrib does not have one single proof text. All they have is avoidance, theories and speculations.

 

[jerry kelso]

sovereigngrace,

1. First, I see you couldn’t find 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 directly in Revelation 20:4-6.

2. As far as your expose on 1 Thessalonians 4:14- 17 is nothing new but your first mistake is that you conflate the two issues of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 5:1 by making them one.
They are not. Why? Because the word but, is transitive and starts another thought and subject.
But of the times and seasons ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
They understood what the Day of the Lord was.
So your whole case falls at the start because it is 2 comings and they knew about the Day of the Lord not the rapture 1 Corinthians 15:51; Behold I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the last Trump for the trump shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. This is the same of the living and dead the same as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 which Paul calls a mystery.

2. The Day of the Lord was nothing new so it doesn’t mesh with 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.
So you are wrong from the get go.
Jerry Kelso

Once again you avoid every point and every Scripture presented. This is the classic Pretrib MO. They do so because there doctrine is unbiblical.

There are no chapters in 1 Thessalonians. As you can see 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 is speaking about the same unitary final event in history. After it, we are into eternity. There is no secret rapture or imaginary 7 years trib (or any period of trib) here or anywhere else in Scripture. It was invented around 1830. It is foisted on the sacred text by man.

If I am wrong, show me the 7 years trib here?

Once again, the first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove." You have proved nothing yet! Also, you have no answer to the rebuttals. Pretrib does not have one single proof text. All they have is avoidance, theories and speculations.

Once again you avoid every point and every Scripture presented. This is the classic Pretrib MO. They do so because there doctrine is unbiblical.

There are no chapters in 1 Thessalonians. As you can see 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 is speaking about the same unitary final event in history. After it, we are into eternity. There is no secret rapture or imaginary 7 years trib (or any period of trib) here or anywhere else in Scripture. It was invented around 1830. It is foisted on the sacred text by man.

If I am wrong, show me the 7 years trib here?

Once again, the first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove." You have proved nothing yet! Also, you have no answer to the rebuttals. Pretrib does not have one single proof text. All they have is avoidance, theories and speculations.

sovereigngrace,

1. I have answered to your point and you can’t answer to it.
I used the same principle you used on me about Revelation 4:1 only I could give you a logical answer and you can’t give one at all.
You try the same thing on another and it doesn’t work.

2. You are blaming everything of the classic pre-Trib when you can’t even prove post-trib.

3. No chapters? Foolish thing unless you are talking about a Hebrew Bible or original manuscripts.
It don’t really matter.
They are two separate issues and I told you why by scripture and scriptural logic.
All you do is disagree and you are not being fair to exegesis.

4. I already gave you 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and how the rapture is a mystery and the Day of the Lord wasn’t but you want to put it all in one and the same and it is not.

5. The 7 year trib is Daniel 9:27 about the Antichrist. V 24 is about Israel’s restoration and not about the church.

6. So you are wrong and your nonsense is not going to work.
Tell me something, what made you believe post trib is so more Holy a position than pre-Trib? Jerry Kelso

 

[sovereigngrace]

4. I already gave you 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and how the rapture is a mystery and the Day of the Lord wasn’t but you want to put it all in one and the same and it is not.

Can you show us in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

It is not enough to keep making these inaccurate evasive replies. Prove this! Where is your evidence of this? Where is your 7-year trib. If you cannot show that then it is extra-biblical. I have proved that there is no rapture of the Church in Rev 4:1. I have proved that your dates and times are way-off in Rev 4-19. There is not even any mention of the word ekklesia in Rev 19 with your 3rd coming of the Lord.

This 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote his book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.

5. The 7 year trib is Daniel 9:27 about the Antichrist. V 24 is about Israel’s restoration and not about the church.

LOL. Where is it?

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Once again you avoid every point and every Scripture presented. This is the classic Pretrib MO. They do so because there doctrine is unbiblical.

There are no chapters in 1 Thessalonians. As you can see 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 is speaking about the same unitary final event in history. After it, we are into eternity. There is no secret rapture or imaginary 7 years trib (or any period of trib) here or anywhere else in Scripture. It was invented around 1830. It is foisted on the sacred text by man.

If I am wrong, show me the 7 years trib here?

Once again, the first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove." You have proved nothing yet! Also, you have no answer to the rebuttals. Pretrib does not have one single proof text. All they have is avoidance, theories and speculations.

Can you show us in 1 Thessalonians (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

 

[sovereigngrace]

1. I have answered to your point and you can’t answer to it.
I used the same principle you used on me about Revelation 4:1 only I could give you a logical answer and you can’t give one at all.
You try the same thing on another and it doesn’t work.

I don't honestly have a clue what you are saying here. There is nothing i have avoided yet. Show me what you think I have avoided here.

 

[jerry kelso]

Can you show us in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

It is not enough to keep making these inaccurate evasive replies. Prove this! Where is your evidence of this? Where is your 7-year trib. If you cannot show that then it is extra-biblical. I have proved that there is no rapture of the Church in Rev 4:1. I have proved that your dates and times are way-off in Rev 4-19. There is not even any mention of the word ekklesia in Rev 19 with your 3rd coming of the Lord.

This 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote his book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.



LOL. Where is it?

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

sovereigngrace,

1. Since you think you know pre-Trib position better than dispensationalists why don’t you explain Daniel’s 70 weeks and if you can you will find your answer. Jerry Kelso

 

[sovereigngrace]

sovereigngrace,

1. Since you think you know pre-Trib position better than dispensationalists why don’t you explain Daniel’s 70 weeks and if you can you will find your answer. Jerry Kelso

I have already done that! You just chose to ignore it again, like every other question, point and Scripture text. That is how Pretrib survives. Where is your evidence? Daniel 9 is presented as the Pretrib proof of some supposed future 2-coming theology with a 7-years trib in the middle, yet you cannot find it anywhere in Holy Writ.

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

 

[sovereigngrace]

sovereigngrace,

1. Since you think you know pre-Trib position better than dispensationalists why don’t you explain Daniel’s 70 weeks and if you can you will find your answer. Jerry Kelso

Can you show us in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

 

[sovereigngrace]

sovereigngrace,

1. Since you think you know pre-Trib position better than dispensationalists why don’t you explain Daniel’s 70 weeks and if you can you will find your answer. Jerry Kelso

Can you show me any mention of, or reference to, the word ekklesia (Church) in Revelation 19 where Pretribs insert their 3rd coming of the Lord?

 

[Dale]

Is is a "man made doctrine" that in the garden of Eden God related to mankind in a different way than how He related to them afterward?

Is it a "man made doctrine" that God made new laws for mankind after the flood of Noah?

Is it a "man made doctrine" that after God made His promises to Abraham, that his desendants were the children of a promise?

Is it a "man made doctrine" that at the time of Moses, God gave the children of Israel a new law that did not exist before that time?

Is it a "man made doctrine" that since Jesus died, we are no longer under the law?

Is it a "man made doctrine" that a time is coming when God will restore all things?

All of these changes are clearly taught in scripture. people who are called "Dispensationalists" call the period during which each of these changes was in effect a "dispensation," because when the doctrine became widespread, the KJV was the only widely used translation of the Bible. But rgardless of what these periods are called, they clearly exist in the Bible.

It is indeed true that the word rendered "dispensation" in the KJV actually translates as "administration." But whether you say "dispensationalism" or "admnistrationalism" is insignificant. The HARD FACT is that these different periods are CLEARLY set forth in the Bible. And, in order to deny that the ancient nation of Israel will indeed be physically brought back to its ancient homeland, and will there be blessed by God, you have to deny the truthfulness of a very large number of explicit statements of scripture.

Biblewriter: << Is is a "man made doctrine" that in the garden of Eden God related to mankind in a different way than how He related to them afterward? >>

Do you have to be a creationist to be a Dispensationalist? I'm not a creationist.


27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

Genesis 1: 27-30 NIV

Are the people created in Genesis 1:27-30 under a different Dispensation from Adam and Eve, created in Genesis Two?

Biblewriter: << Is it a "man made doctrine" that God made new laws for mankind after the flood of Noah? >>

The story of Noah is a parable. Again, do you have to be a creationist to be a Dispensationalist?

Biblewriter: << Is it a "man made doctrine" that since Jesus died, we are no longer under the law? >>

It looks like Dispensationalists are the ones who deny this since they are are the ones who say that Jews are still under the Old Covenant or some such thing.

Biblewriter: << Is it a "man made doctrine" that a time is coming when God will restore all things? >>

21 [Peter says,] Heaven must receive him [Jesus] until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Acts 3:21 NIV

It's funny that you should mention that God will restore all things. In Acts 3:21, Peter tells us plainly that Jesus will remain in heaven until the time of the Second Coming, when He restores all things. There can be no "rapture" separate from the Second Coming, no private or secret coming separate from the official Second Coming when Jesus comes for everyone.

 

[Dale]

The Bible most definitely teaches that God dealt with mankind in different ways at different times. You can deny this, but you cannot change it.

And these differences were clearly taught, and called "dispensatios," or rather, the Greek word we translate as "dispensations," in the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to the present day. This was the last twelve chapters of the very famous five volume work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heresies," which is believed to have been written between the years 186 and 188 A.D. This was also taught by numerous other writers during the church's first four centuries, although it was given up in later centuries.

You keep saying that the way that God deals with mankind changes in different dispensations or administrations.

17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
James 1:17 NIV

17 Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. a
a: James 1:17 Other ancient authorities read variation due to a shadow of turning
James 1:17 RSV

James is perfectly clear that God's policy is constant. God and His precepts do "not change like shifting shadows" but instead have "no variation." That means no dispensations.

 

[Biblewriter]

Do you have to be a creationist to be a Dispensationalist? I'm not a creationist.


27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

Genesis 1: 27-30 NIV

45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you--Moses, in whom you trust.
46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.
47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" John 5:45-47 NKJV

Are the people created in Genesis 1:27-30 under a different Dispensation from Adam and Eve, created in Genesis Two?

There are not two different groups of people created in these two chapters.

Biblewriter: << Is it a "man made doctrine" that God made new laws for mankind after the flood of Noah? >>

The story of Noah is a parable. Again, do you have to be a creationist to be a Dispensationalist?

I have given you yhe answer made by Jesus Himself.

Biblewriter: << Is it a "man made doctrine" that since Jesus died, we are no longer under the law? >>

It looks like Dispensationalists are the ones who deny this since they are are the ones who say that Jews are still under the Old Covenant or some such thing.

If you want to answer a doctrine, it would be a good idea to have at least some idea what it teaches.

Biblewriter: << Is it a "man made doctrine" that a time is coming when God will restore all things? >>

21 [Peter says,] Heaven must receive him [Jesus] until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Acts 3:21 NIV

It's funny that you should mention that God will restore all things. In Acts 3:21, Peter tells us plainly that Jesus will remain in heaven until the time of the Second Coming, when He restores all things. There can be no "rapture" separate from the Second Coming, no private or secret coming separate from the official Second Coming when Jesus comes for everyone.

Actually, the scriptures plainly show that there are two future comings of Christ. They never state this in plain words. But they show it by stating mutually exclusive details about Hid coming. That is, it would be physically impossible to do some of the things we are told about His coming at the same time as when He does some of the other things we are told about His coming. In the Old Testament there were similar mutually exclusive details about the coming of the promised Messiah. And in the New Testament it was revealed that the answer to THAT apparent contradiction was that He would come again. This shows us that there is a similar answer to the mutually exclusive details about His return. He is returning more than just one time.

 

[Biblewriter]

You keep saying that the way that God deals with mankind changes in different dispensations or administrations.

17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
James 1:17 NIV

17 Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. a
a: James 1:17 Other ancient authorities read variation due to a shadow of turning
James 1:17 RSV

James is perfectly clear that God's policy is constant. God and His precepts do "not change like shifting shadows" but instead have "no variation." That means no dispensations.

God's essential ways are most certainly unchanging. But we are explicitly told that we are no loner under the law.