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Featured The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by Dale, Nov 24, 2019.

  1. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Jacob’s trouble

    Dispensationalists boast often about the need for a literalist approach to Scripture. But when their theology is tested by the Word of God it is seen to fall short. When we analyze their boast, we find truth after truth and passage after passage that they butcher in order to facility their doctrine. Not only do they not take a literal approach but they also repeatedly fail to acknowledge context or setting. The subject of Jacob’s trouble is a case-in-point. They rip it from its old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it to some imaginary seven-year period at the end, to support their end-time beliefs.

    A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. Also, it has absolutely nothing to do with the end of time. It rather describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.

    Jacob's trouble is shown to relate to Babylonian captivity which occurred back in Nebuchadrezzar’s day. Let us let the Bible speak for itself.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2019
  2. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    You can't see you are not imposing yourself the same standards you are imposing on those who believe in pre-trib?

    Your standard is worse in fact, there is scripture specifically saying what will happen during the Tribulation, for example 2 witnesses and their miracles.

    You ignored them and yet insist that we are "currently" in the Tribulation.
     
  3. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 11:1-19 says, And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city (Jerusalem from above), shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    This passage commences in symbolic form describing “the temple of God”

    (v3-4) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters (the nations) to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”

    The first thing we learn about this important passage is the symbolic nature of the text. We then see the focus of the chapter – the two witnesses. Whilst Scripture refers many times to the ‘olive tree’ in a literal sense, there is one text, apart from the one we are looking at, that refers to the olive tree in a symbolic sense. That is found in Zechariah 4. The link between these two prophetic passages seems undeniable. Not only do we see two olive trees clearly described but we also see their spiritual significance explained. Interesting, this reading also relates a candlestick to the two olive trees. So a definite comparison can be made between these two symbolic readings.

    Zechariah 4 commences with Zechariah being woken from his sleep by an angel and asked, What seest thou?”

    To which Zechariah replies, “I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?”

    Such peculiar language, left unexplained, would be difficult to comprehend. However, we are assisted in our exposition the Holy Spirit aids us by explaining the import of the passage thus eliminating the need for speculation.

    The angel then asks, “Knowest thou not what these be?”

    To which Zechariah replies, “No, my lord.”

    The angel then explains, “This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.”

    Zechariah then specifically addresses the olive trees, asking, “What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, these are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth” (vv11-14).

    John makes allusion to several literal events that already occurred in the old economy, and spiritually applies them to our day. The fall of Babylon, Gog / Magog battle and Elijah and Moses.

    This symbolic prophecy in Zechariah is a clear allusion to Moses and Elijah and their glorious appearance with the Lord Jesus Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration.

    Revelation 11 takes a retrospective look at this fulfilled prophecy in Zechariah, making a typical reference to Elijah (the Spirit anointed prophet) and Moses (the Law-giver), plainly not a literal reference. Spiritually applied I believe they jointly represents the Spirit (or the work of the Spirit) and the Word (or the work of the Word of God) today.

    Zechariah the Prophet asks, “What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?”

    The “two golden pipes” seem to refer to the message or ministry that pours out through these two mighty vessels. We note, by the symbolic language, that both of these ministries are totally dependent upon the power and inspiration of the Holy Spirit – “the golden oil.”

    Oil is always symbolic in Scripture of the Holy Spirit and the anointing of the Spirit. Any gift or talent that God bestows must always be exercised in the power and anointing of the Spirit of God. Anywhere man is anointed with oil in Scripture it is as a symbol of the spiritual anointing oil of the Holy Spirit.

    So, what is the particular significance of Moses and Elijah and why, of all the great servants of God, were they chosen to appear on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus?

    Moses as we see in Scripture was the great Law-giver of the Old Testament and therefore he seems to represent the written Word of God whereas Elijah was the great Prophet of the Old Testament therefore representing the spoken Word of God. Their own individual offices were unique in that Moses – the Priest represented man with God whereas Elijah – the Prophet represented God with man.

    One is therefore symbolic of the written Word the other is symbolic of the spoken Word or the work of the Holy Spirit. These two witnesses have always led God’s people down through time and will be there until the end.
     
  4. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    What are you talking about? Jacob's troubles is not mentioned anywhere in Revelation or anywhere else in the New Testament. Pretribbers have to force it in there.

    Have you even read the context of it and who it is applied to in the OT? Or are you just taking what your teaching have told you?
     
  5. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Here is a study I have done. Have a look at the location and subject of this teaching.

    Jeremiah 1:3 “It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.”

    Jeremiah 2:27-28: “they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.”

    Jeremiah 8:14-15: “assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD. We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! "

    Jeremiah 11:10-12: They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.”

    Jeremiah 14:7: “O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee. O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble.

    Jeremiah 15:2: “And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.”

    Jeremiah 20:4: “For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.”

    Jeremiah 25:9-11: Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

    Jeremiah 29:1: “Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon."

    Jeremiah 30:3-7: “For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. "

    Jeremiah 30:10-11: “Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.”

    This was speaking of Babylon at the time. It reveals a consistent scriptural truth, the vessels God uses to chasten His people, He then casts away. It was only the last few books that were post-exile. As promised, Israel after chastisement was delivered. Babylon was utterly destroyed. They were only one of many nations over the centuries. Today in this New Testament era, those who oppose God's only nation the Church face the same outcome.

    Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.

    Jeremiah 32:44: “Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.

    Jeremiah 51:1: Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his brigandine: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host. Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, and they that are thrust through in her streets. For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.”

    If this was a legal case it would be a closed case. I believe it is absolutely water-tight. The lawyer would simply say: “I rest my case.” I don’t believe there is any question that an objective analyse of this book would come to any other conclusion than the fact that Jeremiah is describing Israel’s captivity in Babylon in his day. There is no mention (or context) of end-times in the prophet’s writings on this matter. Quite the opposite.

    The day of trouble that is being highlighted happened long ago in the old covenant period. It does not relate to some supposed future period after Christ returns and saves Israel. Whoever is not saved when Jesus comes is immediately and eternally destroyed.

    Many have all been infected with the Scofield interpretation of Scripture instead of the Holy Spirit’s interpretation of the same. I can only conclude that the future location of Jacob’s trouble is a Pretrib invention, misconception and/or misinterpretation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2019
  6. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    sovereigngrace,

    1. Your hermeneutics is out of whack.

    2. The Old Testament church is not the New Testament church. It was just Israel and gentiles didn’t have a covenant.
    They could be prosecuted in.

    3. If you think the post rapture is the real truth why don’t you tell us what you believe the scriptures say about it.
    Prove 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6.
    Jerry Kelso
     
  7. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Why are you ignoring the 2 witnesses in Revelations 11? Did the beast kill them, everyone saw their deaths and resurrection afterwards?

    Did all that also happened too during the old covenant period, in your view?
     
  8. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    What you are missing, and so is Premil, is that other clear Scripture shows "the first resurrection" to be Christ's glorious conquering of the grave. We see that "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5) relates to what Christ secured 2000 years ago.
     
  9. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    There will, in my opinion, be a rejection and subjugation of the operation of the Word and the Spirit in this antichrist world before He comes, during Satan's little season (Rev 20) and as the mystery of iniquity is released (2 Thess 2).
     
  10. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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  11. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    So you do believe that there will be a time in the future, where all those things, will happen right?

    Back to my original question to you then, will those Christians who fell asleep before that time, be resurrected together with the rest of us living, in order to face those things?

    Don't they have to go thru the same testing? Why are they "fortunate" enough not to have to face it?
     
  12. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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  13. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Here is what I believe about that day:

    The Second Coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: "the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13 & Matt 28:19-20).

    The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

    John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

    Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corrupt occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

    1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

    Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

    It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.
     
  14. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    You did not answer my question on why you believe a specific group of believers who already put their faith in Jesus's death and resurrection and are thus justified before God, have to go thru that period, while the rest who happen to have passed away before it happened are exempted.

    Why do they have to go through that? They are not saved from the wrath to come? 1 Thessalonians 1:10
     
  15. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    What you are missing is proper context.
    Revelation 20:4-6 shows nothing of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
    That is what you were supposed to prove but you can’t so you give scriptures of Christ the first fruits etc.
    Yes, it is because Christ arose we will rise.
    But that is not the same as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 being a post trib rapture of the dead and living Christians being raptured into the clouds.
    You are not rightly dividing the word.
    Everything you accuse me of you are doing.
    All you are proving is how much you can skate the issue and get off some rabbit trail that doesn’t have to do with the 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
    You are being disingenuous. Please stick to context. Jerrykelso
     
  16. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Tribulation is the believers lot since the beginning. Read Old Testament history. Read New Testament history. Read church history. God's true people have always been in tribulation.
     
  17. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    So those Christians who have already passed away, say in the last year or so, have it much easier than those who specifically have to go thru the events in Revelations?
     
  18. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Please give me time to reply.

    1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 is probably the most commonly presented reading in the Bible forwarded to support a Pretrib rapture. However, it is a text that is so often misunderstood and therefore misinterpreted. In fact, there is a lot imputed into it that is frankly not there. There is a lot that is overlooked that should be carefully noted. We should therefore start our study by considering this important text.

    There is one thing that every true Bible student will be in agreement on and that is that this passage is a vivid record of Christ’s coming and what accompanies it. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    One thing we should acknowledge as we dissect this text is that “the coming of the Lord” is synonymous here with “the day of the Lord.” Moreover, this passage is exhorting the Church to remain watchful as this final day approaches. Man should prepare himself for this great and terrible day because it will spell the end of time, the end of the wicked and the end of all rebellion.

    After comforting the Church, Paul then warns it: Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”

    After outlining the awfulness of that day for those left behind, the suddenness of its arrival, and the fact that none left behind will escape, Paul makes clear that we are not ignorant of this day and will therefore not be caught unprepared. Christ is going to rescue us – by being caught up – from this awful sudden and total destruction that is going to destroy the wicked. Clearly, we are here when the coming of Christ arrives as a thief in the night, but are prepared and, as a consequence, rescued to escape the awful destruction.

    This passage perfectly correlates with passages like Ephesians 1:9-10, 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13, Jude 1:14 and Revelation 19:7-14. They relate to the one final future coming of Christ. Pretribulationists and Prewrathers employ this narrative as supposed proof that Christ is coming in a two-stage return, firstly, at ‘the rapture’ to the sky for his saints and, secondly, at the revelation of Christ (which they say is different from the rapture and is a third coming 7 years later) which they argue involves the Lord’s ‘coming to the earth with His saints’. However, one of the first matters that we see encounter in this passage, and which eliminates much of the error circulating within pretribulationist circles today, is the fact that when Christ comes again it is “with” and “for” His saints in one glorious single second coming. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

    Therefore, there are not two separate comings or parousias of the Lord separated by a notional 7-year period – one for His Church and another with His Church. In fact, nowhere in this reading does it even vaguely intimate such. The second coming (parousia) of the Lord will see the immediate and complete rescue of the saved and the immediate and complete destruction of the damned (ruling out any notion that the tribulation comes after the second advent).

    The un-indoctrinated Bible scholar must surely admit that this text oozes definite climactic detail. It first of all shows our Lord coming unexpectedly; it also reveals the fate that befalls all those on earth – both saved and unsaved. Whilst this is shown to be a day anticipated by God’s people, it is one that catches the wicked unawares. After the removal of the righteous all that awaits those left behind is total “destruction” (1 Thessalonians 5:3).

    The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

    It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s coming) is interestingly the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

    This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant cry. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies.
     
  19. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't really matter. Everyone's life-experience from the beginning has been different.
     
  20. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    So that period of time, to you, serves no real purpose actually?
     
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