The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism

[sovereigngrace]

sovereigngrace,

1. You haven’t taken the time to prove I was wrong except on Revelation 4:1. And I proved you wrong on your word church theory and why it doesn’t have to be a plain statement.
I don’t mind someone with a different view but I don’t like dishonest and unfair excuses and no proof of anything when it is rebutted or otherwise.
The burden of proof is for you to give proper rebuttal which you haven’t done.

2. Now I noticed you have a couple of other posts which I will read and hopefully you will have something of scriptural evidence.
I’ll be back.
Jerry Kelso

Again, you totally ignore and avoid the rebuttal. This is classic Pretrib MO. I engage not to change you but to show to other open-minded Christians watching why many of us have abandoned the Pretrib error. Your avoidance reinforces the Posttrib case in a very powerful way.

I have refuted every single claim you have made and you have nothing in reply. You ignore question after question because you CANNOT answer. Believe me: if you had biblical arguments we would have heard them long before now.

I refer you back to the numerous avoided passages, questions and arguments.

 

[sovereigngrace]

6. I have shown some of the rapture on this post but maybe not to you. I can show plenty of other scriptures but I can tell you that there are three feasts left which is the Feast of trumpets, Day of Atonement and Feasts of Tabernacles and the Order cannot be changed.
I have been doing all the explaining so are you willing to show what you know about the post rapture?

Impossible!

John 19:28-30: “Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”

This English phrase “It is finished” in John 19:30 is taken from the lone Greek word Tetélestai. It means completed, executed, concluded, discharged (as in a debt). It also means paid in full or accomplished.

What was paid in full or accomplished? The penalty and punishment for your sin. It has been wonderfully and eternally paid for!

Everything within the Hebrew Scriptures pointed forward to a final redemption of Israel’s sin. This was when Christ made himself a perfect final sacrifice for sin in His own blood. This occurred on the cross. He was Israel’s anticipated redeeming Messiah. This was the critical moment in history when sinful man obtained legal redemption. In doing this, those who embraced this transaction experienced eternal forgiveness. Christ didn’t just come to make a sacrifice, He was the sacrifice. Through His death the believer is clothed in His righteousness.

The renting of the veil just as Christ is giving up the ghost spelt the end of the old covenant and the introduction of the new covenant. God stepped out from behind that curtain and embraced all nations. God required no more animal sacrifices and the temple’s purpose had been completed.

3 days after the crucifixion, two of Jesus discouraged disciples were heading to Emmaus. They were probably glad to get out of Jerusalem. They used this journey to reflect upon the life, death and burial of Christ. The resurrection promise seemed to be under question. They testified in Luke 24:21: “we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and besides all this, today is the third day since these things were done.”

Christ fulfilled the plan that was laid down for Him. The redemptive path was the divine route for the Messiah. It had to happen because Israel, along with all mankind, needed redeemed.

 

[sovereigngrace]

3. I already gave the time factor in Revelation 1:19.
The church in Heaven before 5:9-10 and during in Revelation 11:18 at the end of the tribulation 19:7-10 and comes out of Heaven Revelation 19:11–15.
So try and rebut this by scripture. Jerry Kelso

The word "Church" is not mentioned between Revelation 4 and 19, so according to Pretrib rational, they cannot be in heaven. In fact, the same argument Pretrib attempts to negate the possibility of the Church’s presence on earth during Revelation 4-19 can equally be used to negate the possibility of the Church’s presence in heaven. After all, one distinctly finds that despite all the many explicit references to the heavenly abode and the many activities outlined therein (between Revelation 4-19), the Church isn’t cited once. This must therefore be proof that they aren’t there (using Pretrib logic)?

Heaven is mentioned in Revelation 4:1-2, 5:3, 13, 6:13-14, 8:1, 10, 13, 9:1, 10:1, 4, 5, 6, 8, 11:12 (X2), 13, 15, 19, 12:1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 10, 13:6, 13, 14:2, 6, 7, 13, 17, 15:1, 5, 16:11, 17, 21, 18:1, 4, 5, 20, 19:1, 11, 14, 17. This is all in the supposed Pretrib tribulation period.

If this Pretrib mode of interpretation is correct (namely the absence of the name denotes the absence of the said subjects) then the Church has mysteriously disappeared into the unknown for a supposed seven-year period – it is evidently not found in heaven and it is not mentioned and it is not found on earth. Where then is the Church?

 

[jerry kelso]

Again, you totally ignore and avoid the rebuttal. This is classic Pretrib MO. I engage not to change you but to show to other open-minded Christians watching why many of us have abandoned the Pretrib error. Your avoidance reinforces the Posttrib case in a very powerful way.

I have refuted every single claim you have made and you have nothing in reply. You ignore question after question because you CANNOT answer. Believe me: if you had biblical arguments we would have heard them long before now.

I refer you back to the numerous avoided passages, questions and arguments.[/QUOTE

sovereigngrace,

Sorry but you haven’t even addressed all my points lot alone re

Impossible!

John 19:28-30: “Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”

This English phrase “It is finished” in John 19:30 is taken from the lone Greek word Tetélestai. It means completed, executed, concluded, discharged (as in a debt). It also means paid in full or accomplished.

What was paid in full or accomplished? The penalty and punishment for your sin. It has been wonderfully and eternally paid for!

Everything within the Hebrew Scriptures pointed forward to a final redemption of Israel’s sin. This was when Christ made himself a perfect final sacrifice for sin in His own blood. This occurred on the cross. He was Israel’s anticipated redeeming Messiah. This was the critical moment in history when sinful man obtained legal redemption. In doing this, those who embraced this transaction experienced eternal forgiveness. Christ didn’t just come to make a sacrifice, He was the sacrifice. Through His death the believer is clothed in His righteousness.

The renting of the veil just as Christ is giving up the ghost spelt the end of the old covenant and the introduction of the new covenant. God stepped out from behind that curtain and embraced all nations. God required no more animal sacrifices and the temple’s purpose had been completed.

3 days after the crucifixion, two of Jesus discouraged disciples were heading to Emmaus. They were probably glad to get out of Jerusalem. They used this journey to reflect upon the life, death and burial of Christ. The resurrection promise seemed to be under question. They testified in Luke 24:21: “we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and besides all this, today is the third day since these things were done.”

Christ fulfilled the plan that was laid down for Him. The redemptive path was the divine route for the Messiah. It had to happen because Israel, along with all mankind, needed redeemed.

sovereigngrace,

1. You didn’t rebut the feast because you probably know nothing about them.

2. John 19:28:30 has nothing to do with Israel’s feast in your context.

3. The New Covenant came in after the Jewish nation rejected the Messiah Matthew 26:28.
The New Covenant was not established with the nation of Israel because they had rejected Christ Matthew 23:37-39 and he prophesied their judgement in Matthew 24:1-2 which happened in 70 A.D. This is a historical fact.
The church age started on the Day of Pentecost Ephesians 2:14-15. Jew and gentile in one body alike to become one new man.
This is not the nation of Israel for they are only physical Jews.

4. All Israel will be saved Romans 11:26.
It is tied into the restoration of creation Joel 2; Acts 2:16-20; Romans 8:22.
I already explained why Jeremiah 31:32-34 and Hebrews 8:7-12 has not been fulfilled with Israel for they are still backslidden.
Calvary was for the first transgressions of the first testament which was from the antediluvian period through the Mosaic law period Hebrews 9:15 and the whole world John 3:16.

5. Today Israel is still backslidden and Israel and Judah will not become one stick till the end times after the end of Jacob’s trouble Ezekiel 37:16-28.
So yes, the New Covenant came in at Calvary but not for Israel the nation for them to receive their gifts and callings Romans 11:29.
2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7 Matthew 5:5 are the unconditional covenants of the Abraham’s Covenant (land) and the Davidic Covenant (The throne) Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7; 66:7-9; Ezekiel 37:24. They are conditioned by obedience of the nation and this hasn’t happened yet.
You cannot prove these scriptures wrong.
Luke 24:21; Israel was to be redeemed spiritually in order to gain entrance into the physical KoH reign but they rejected Christ and it didn’t happen.
So you are wrong again. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

The word "Church" is not mentioned between Revelation 4 and 19, so according to Pretrib rational, they cannot be in heaven. In fact, the same argument Pretrib attempts to negate the possibility of the Church’s presence on earth during Revelation 4-19 can equally be used to negate the possibility of the Church’s presence in heaven. After all, one distinctly finds that despite all the many explicit references to the heavenly abode and the many activities outlined therein (between Revelation 4-19), the Church isn’t cited once. This must therefore be proof that they aren’t there (using Pretrib logic)?

Heaven is mentioned in Revelation 4:1-2, 5:3, 13, 6:13-14, 8:1, 10, 13, 9:1, 10:1, 4, 5, 6, 8, 11:12 (X2), 13, 15, 19, 12:1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 10, 13:6, 13, 14:2, 6, 7, 13, 17, 15:1, 5, 16:11, 17, 21, 18:1, 4, 5, 20, 19:1, 11, 14, 17. This is all in the supposed Pretrib tribulation period.

If this Pretrib mode of interpretation is correct (namely the absence of the name denotes the absence of the said subjects) then the Church has mysteriously disappeared into the unknown for a supposed seven-year period – it is evidently not found in heaven and it is not mentioned and it is not found on earth. Where then is the Church?

sovereigngrace,

1. The word church not being mentioned in Revelation 4-19 is true.
Where you are wrong is that our rationale means the church is not in Heaven because of the absence of the word church.
We believe the church is in Heaven despite the absence. I have repeatedly quoted Revelation 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:7-10.
You haven’t proved that the church is on the earth.
You are building up opinion and conjecture and baseless scenarios about the mode of interpretation and the church not being in Heaven or earth or anywhere. It makes no sense.
I already told you why they were in Heaven during the tribulation.
You are wrong again. Jerry Kelso

 

[sovereigngrace]

sovereigngrace,

1. You didn’t rebut the feast because you probably know nothing about them.

2. John 19:28:30 has nothing to do with Israel’s feast in your context.

3. The New Covenant came in after the Jewish nation rejected the Messiah Matthew 26:28.
The New Covenant was not established with the nation of Israel because they had rejected Christ Matthew 23:37-39 and he prophesied their judgement in Matthew 24:1-2 which happened in 70 A.D. This is a historical fact.
The church age started on the Day of Pentecost Ephesians 2:14-15. Jew and gentile in one body alike to become one new man.
This is not the nation of Israel for they are only physical Jews.

4. All Israel will be saved Romans 11:26.
It is tied into the restoration of creation Joel 2; Acts 2:16-20; Romans 8:22.
I already explained why Jeremiah 31:32-34 and Hebrews 8:7-12 has not been fulfilled with Israel for they are still backslidden.
Calvary was for the first transgressions of the first testament which was from the antediluvian period through the Mosaic law period Hebrews 9:15 and the whole world John 3:16.

5. Today Israel is still backslidden and Israel and Judah will not become one stick till the end times after the end of Jacob’s trouble Ezekiel 37:16-28.
So yes, the New Covenant came in at Calvary but not for Israel the nation for them to receive their gifts and callings Romans 11:29.
2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7 Matthew 5:5 are the unconditional covenants of the Abraham’s Covenant (land) and the Davidic Covenant (The throne) Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7; 66:7-9; Ezekiel 37:24. They are conditioned by obedience of the nation and this hasn’t happened yet.
You cannot prove these scriptures wrong.
Luke 24:21; Israel was to be redeemed spiritually in order to gain entrance into the physical KoH reign but they rejected Christ and it didn’t happen.
So you are wrong again. Jerry Kelso

What has all this to do with Christ fulfilling the old covenant sacrificial system and abolishing it through His life, death and resurrection? Why are you trying to hold unto that which has been long removed?

Pretribbers make the mistake of viewing physical Israel today through Old Testament glasses. They fail to see that the Old Testament dispensation has gone forever and the New Testament era has fully and wholly superseded it. The old system has been totally dismantled and abolished because it was only ever intended to be a temporary covenant with an expiration date. Its conclusion occurred when Christ died on the cross. We see that with the ripping of the curtain in the temple at the very moment Jesus breathed His last breath (Matthew 27:50-51, Mark 15:37-38 and Luke 23:45-46). It therefore has no further purpose for time and eternity.

The New Testament reveals Christ's arrival and precious work on man’s behalf. As we dig deeper and compare both, we notice that there are notable differences between the two arrangements. We see a significant move:

· From the shadow and type to the substance and reality
· From the imperfect to the perfect
· From the inadequate to the all-sufficient.
· From the physical to the spiritual
· From the external to the internal
· From the natural to the supernatural
· From the temporary to the eternal
· From the earthly to the heavenly
· From the national to the international
· From the conditional to the unconditional

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ” (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.”

Colossians 2:14 plainly declares, speaking of these Old Testament ordinances and what happened at Calvary: “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

The Greek word for “blotting out” here is exaleiphō meaning: ‘to wipe off, wipe away, to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out’

Q. When did/will the “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances” occur?
A. Christ “took it out of the way” by “nailing it to his cross.”

The only provision for our sins, is the sacrifice of Calvary. The sad thing is: many Christians today speak on this subject as if the cross never happened. They talk as if the old covenant is still germane today or will be in the future. They fail to see that it has been eternally removed because the new covenant has wholly replaced it. This is why they get messed up when they get to this overall subject.

 

[sovereigngrace]

sovereigngrace,

1. Revelation 4:1; John is taken up into Heaven through an actual portal in Heaven when the church age is through.
Revelation 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:7-10 shows the church is in Heaven through the whole tribulation before they come out of Heaven with Christ the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to do battle at Armageddon Revelation 19:11-15. Jerry Kelso

• You have zero proof for a Pretrib rapture in Revelation 4:1. There is no mention of the Church there. It is rather a record of John getting caught up in the Spirit 2000 years ago.
• You have zero proof for a 7 years trib between Revelation 4-19. It actually adds up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.
• You claim the Church is in heaven between Revelation 4-19 yet you admit there is no mention of the Church in any of those chapters.
• You have zero proof for a Pretrib rapture in Daniel 9.

Your doctrine is devoid of any biblical basis!

 

[jerry kelso]

What has all this to do with Christ fulfilling the old covenant sacrificial system and abolishing it through His life, death and resurrection? Why are you trying to hold unto that which has been long removed?

Pretribbers make the mistake of viewing physical Israel today through Old Testament glasses. They fail to see that the Old Testament dispensation has gone forever and the New Testament era has fully and wholly superseded it. The old system has been totally dismantled and abolished because it was only ever intended to be a temporary covenant with an expiration date. Its conclusion occurred when Christ died on the cross. We see that with the ripping of the curtain in the temple at the very moment Jesus breathed His last breath (Matthew 27:50-51, Mark 15:37-38 and Luke 23:45-46). It therefore has no further purpose for time and eternity.

The New Testament reveals Christ's arrival and precious work on man’s behalf. As we dig deeper and compare both, we notice that there are notable differences between the two arrangements. We see a significant move:

· From the shadow and type to the substance and reality
· From the imperfect to the perfect
· From the inadequate to the all-sufficient.
· From the physical to the spiritual
· From the external to the internal
· From the natural to the supernatural
· From the temporary to the eternal
· From the earthly to the heavenly
· From the national to the international
· From the conditional to the unconditional

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ” (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.”

Colossians 2:14 plainly declares, speaking of these Old Testament ordinances and what happened at Calvary: “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

The Greek word for “blotting out” here is exaleiphō meaning: ‘to wipe off, wipe away, to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out’

Q. When did/will the “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances” occur?
A. Christ “took it out of the way” by “nailing it to his cross.”

The only provision for our sins, is the sacrifice of Calvary. The sad thing is: many Christians today speak on this subject as if the cross never happened. They talk as if the old covenant is still germane today or will be in the future. They fail to see that it has been eternally removed because the new covenant has wholly replaced it. This is why they get messed up when they get to this overall subject.

sovereigngrace,

1. Your whole post is about the Law being done away with at Calvary and the New Covenant took its place.
I believe that but that is not the argument.
It is about Israel’s gifts and callings according to their covenants of Abraham and David.
Now obviously you don’t understand them.
Learn the plan of God for Israel and the church first and quit skating the issue by going off the rails.
Do you believe the spiritual Jew theory and replacement theology where the church has replaced Israel? Jerry Kelso

 

[sovereigngrace]

sovereigngrace,

1. Your whole post is about the Law being done away with at Calvary and the New Covenant took its place.
I believe that but that is not the argument.
It is about Israel’s gifts and callings according to their covenants of Abraham and David.
Now obviously you don’t understand them.
Learn the plan of God for Israel and the church first and quit skating the issue by going off the rails.
Do you believe the spiritual Jew theory and replacement theology where the church has replaced Israel? Jerry Kelso

God has not ditched old Israel and started over again with a new Israel (Replacement Theology), neither has He split His covenant people into two different groups (Segregation Theology), but rather He has “grafted” the Gentiles into the one historic believing people of God – true Israel. Romans 11:17 tells us that God has incorporated the Gentiles into the elect of God. This integration is clearly not replacement, it is addition. It is a combining of peoples. There is manifestly one unbroken unitary spiritual line of elect from Adam right up until today.

With the first advent of Christ, God introduced a new religious arrangement that changed the format of God’s engagement with man, and also enlarged the geographical range of His grace. Israel lost its exclusive privileged place under the new economy. The theocratic system was dismantled. The old covenant ceremonial system was replaced with a better, stronger, broader, more glorious and longer-lasting covenant. Under the new covenant there was no difference placed between Jews and Gentiles. Both enjoy equal status through faith in Christ. The New Testament expanded the Gospel thrust to embrace all nations. The new covenant knew no ethnic, political or religious boundaries. It was a global trans-national scheme that targeted a fallen world.

True Israel today can only refer to God’s redeemed people (of all nations), the New Testament congregation. Only they can meet the description. They alone belong to Christ. Only they are His ambassadors on this earth. Only they enjoy favor with God and with man. Scripture proves that Gentile believers would be thoroughly blended into the harmonious whole of faithful Israel. This is supported many Old Testament prophecies that tells us that Israel will be enjoined by others and will incorporate the nations. This is talking about the full spiritual expanse of true Israel. If one is in Christ they belong to spiritual Israel.

 

[Guojing]

God has not ditched old Israel and started over again with a new Israel (Replacement Theology), neither has He split His covenant people into two different groups (Segregation Theology), but rather He has “grafted” the Gentiles into the one historic believing people of God – true Israel. Romans 11:17 tells us that God has incorporated the Gentiles into the elect of God. This integration is clearly not replacement, it is addition. It is a combining of peoples. There is manifestly one unbroken unitary spiritual line of elect from Adam right up until today.

With the first advent of Christ, God introduced a new religious arrangement that changed the format of God’s engagement with man, and also enlarged the geographical range of His grace. Israel lost its exclusive privileged place under the new economy. The theocratic system was dismantled. The old covenant ceremonial system was replaced with a better, stronger, broader, more glorious and longer-lasting covenant. Under the new covenant there was no difference placed between Jews and Gentiles. Both enjoy equal status through faith in Christ. The New Testament expanded the Gospel thrust to embrace all nations. The new covenant knew no ethnic, political or religious boundaries. It was a global trans-national scheme that targeted a fallen world.

True Israel today can only refer to God’s redeemed people (of all nations), the New Testament congregation. Only they can meet the description. They alone belong to Christ. Only they are His ambassadors on this earth. Only they enjoy favor with God and with man. Scripture proves that Gentile believers would be thoroughly blended into the harmonious whole of faithful Israel. This is supported many Old Testament prophecies that tells us that Israel will be enjoined by others and will incorporate the nations. This is talking about the full spiritual expanse of true Israel. If one is in Christ they belong to spiritual Israel.

If you do believe all that you have just wrote, then why do you think "spiritual Israel" must go thru the Tribulation?

 

[sovereigngrace]

If you do believe all that you have just wrote, then why do you think "spiritual Israel" must go thru the Tribulation?

Let us look at the words of Jesus in John 16:33. He declared, “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

The tribulation that Satan pours out on the Church in the intra-Advent period is completely different from the wrath God pours out on the wicked on the final day. There are 2 completely diverse protagonist and 2 completely diverse recipients.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14, “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

The word translated "narrow" in our King James Version here is the Greek word thlibo, which elsewhere in Scripture carries the meaning of afflicted, suffering, tribulation and troubled. So, when the passage says “narrow is the way” we could rightly interpret it “tribulation is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” This is the norm for a Christian. The true blood-bought member of the redeemed Church enters tribulation through salvation. This is an ongoing reality, not a future hope as you suggest.

Tribulation goes with the territory of being a real genuine Christian.It should not be strange!

Jesus said in Matthew 5:10-13, “Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.”

Jesus said in John 15:18-20, "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you."

2 Timothy 3:12 declares, “all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”

Acts 14:22 says, “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”

Paul testified in 1 Thessalonians 3:4: “we told you before that we should suffer tribulation.”

II Corinthians 1:3-5 says, "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ."

II Thessalonians 1:4 says, "we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:"

II Corinthians 4:8-10 says, "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake"

I Peter 4:12-16 says, "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified."

Revelation 1:9 says, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ"

 

[Guojing]

Let us look at the words of Jesus in John 16:33. He declared, “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

The tribulation that Satan pours out on the Church in the intra-Advent period is completely different from the wrath God pours out on the wicked on the final day. There are 2 completely diverse protagonist and 2 completely diverse recipients.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14, “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

The word translated "narrow" in our King James Version here is the Greek word thlibo, which elsewhere in Scripture carries the meaning of afflicted, suffering, tribulation and troubled. So, when the passage says “narrow is the way” we could rightly interpret it “tribulation is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” This is the norm for a Christian. The true blood-bought member of the redeemed Church enters tribulation through salvation. This is an ongoing reality, not a future hope as you suggest.

Tribulation goes with the territory of being a real genuine Christian.It should not be strange!

Jesus said in Matthew 5:10-13, “Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.”

Jesus said in John 15:18-20, "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you."

2 Timothy 3:12 declares, “all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”

Acts 14:22 says, “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”

Paul testified in 1 Thessalonians 3:4: “we told you before that we should suffer tribulation.”

II Corinthians 1:3-5 says, "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ."

II Thessalonians 1:4 says, "we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:"

II Corinthians 4:8-10 says, "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake"

I Peter 4:12-16 says, "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified."

Revelation 1:9 says, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ"

Will those Christians who fell asleep before that time, be resurrected together with the rest of us living, in order to face the Tribulation?

Don't they have to go thru the same testing? Why are they "fortunate" enough not to have to face it?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Will those Christians who fell asleep before that time, be resurrected together with the rest of us living, in order to face the Tribulation?

Don't they have to go thru the same testing? Why are they "fortunate" enough not to have to face it?

The tribulation has been ongoing from Stephen.

 

[Guojing]

The tribulation has been ongoing from Stephen.

I see, if you believe that, no wonder you don't believe in pre-trib.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I see, if you believe that, no wonder you don't believe in pre-trib.

LOL. That is only one of a thousand reasons. Believe me! Pretrib does not even have one single proof text that teaches there will be (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ.

 

[jerry kelso]

• You have zero proof for a Pretrib rapture in Revelation 4:1. There is no mention of the Church there. It is rather a record of John getting caught up in the Spirit 2000 years ago.
• You have zero proof for a 7 years trib between Revelation 4-19. It actually adds up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.
• You claim the Church is in heaven between Revelation 4-19 yet you admit there is no mention of the Church in any of those chapters.
• You have zero proof for a Pretrib rapture in Daniel 9.

Your doctrine is devoid of any biblical basis!

sovereigngrace,

You are only fooling yourself.

1. John was in the Spirit on the Lords day 1:10. This was before the vision 1:12-18 and before the churches and before John was caught up through the portal to Heaven.
That doesn’t mean it was the only reason for 4:1.

2. Revelation 1:19 is the time factor for the book.
The vision was the things John saw.
The things which are was the present churches at the time in Asia. It also includes the whole church age because it is a prophecy.
The things hereafter were after John went through the portal to Heaven and includes the Heavenly scene in 4-5 and the tribulation 6-19; 20 the 1000 years, the 1st and 2nd resurrections and the GWTJ and 21-22 of the New Heaven and New Earth to the Holy City coming down from Heaven.

3. 7 Years is the last week of Daniels 70th week Isaiah 9:24-27.
It is two periods of 1260 days Revelation Daniel 9:27; 12:7; Revelation 11:2.
Your 19 years is bogus because you just added up al of them to total 19 years instead of understanding they happen within the 7 years.
And if you go from the 5 months in the trumpets they will already be in the last 3.5 years Revelation 11:2.

4. I’ve already explained that it doesn’t matter that the word church is not in those chapters.
The Pre Trib position is that there are no earmarks of the church from 6-18 on the earth. There is earmarks in Heaven Revelation 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:7-10.
So you are wrong on every single point.
Jerry Kelso

 

[sovereigngrace]

sovereigngrace,

You are only fooling yourself.

1. John was in the Spirit on the Lords day 1:10. This was before the vision 1:12-18 and before the churches and before John was caught up through the portal to Heaven.
That doesn’t mean it was the only reason for 4:1.

2. Revelation 1:19 is the time factor for the book.
The vision was the things John saw.
The things which are was the present churches at the time in Asia. It also includes the whole church age because it is a prophecy.
The things hereafter were after John went through the portal to Heaven and includes the Heavenly scene in 4-5 and the tribulation 6-19; 20 the 1000 years, the 1st and 2nd resurrections and the GWTJ and 21-22 of the New Heaven and New Earth to the Holy City coming down from Heaven.

3. 7 Years is the last week of Daniels 70th week Isaiah 9:24-27.
It is two periods of 1260 days Revelation Daniel 9:27; 12:7; Revelation 11:2.
Your 19 years is bogus because you just added up al of them to total 19 years instead of understanding they happen within the 7 years.
And if you go from the 5 months in the trumpets they will already be in the last 3.5 years Revelation 11:2.

4. I’ve already explained that it doesn’t matter that the word church is not in those chapters.
The Pre Trib position is that there are no earmarks of the church from 6-18 on the earth. There is earmarks in Heaven Revelation 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:7-10.
So you are wrong on every single point.
Jerry Kelso

God always protects His people! The plagues in Revelation are remarkably similar to those poured out on Egypt in the Old Testament. Significantly, God protected Israel in the midst of these. He did not remove them until He had shown His power and established a righteous testimony for His elect in the midst of darkness.

Egypt is a picture of this world. While God judges the wicked as they persecute us, He preserves His testimony in the midst of it. Soon, He’s going to take us out of here and then immediately destroy the wicked, all wickedness and the corruption on this earth.

We see this principle in God’s preservation of Rahab and her family at the destruction of Jericho. Even in the destruction of Jericho, God preserved His elect. Rahab and her family survived that great judgment.

We see God’s preservation throughout Revelation.

Remember, in the seven seals just before the end of the world in Revelation 7:3 there was a protection placed on the righteous.

Rev 7:3 Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

In the record of the seven trumpets last week we saw that God’s people were preserved in the midst of His judgment on this earth and the wicked. We saw that the wicked are constantly under the wrath of God.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Please be sure: God is not random in His judgment. His wrath is always directed toward the wicked. The wrath of Satan on the other hand is directed toward us in these last days. There is a big difference!

In Pretrib the reasoning is: God must always remove His people before pouring out wrath. If God must always remove His people before pouring out wrath then who are the following?

Revelation 14:12-13 reinforces this, saying, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

If you take time to carefully examine this you will realize: hardship for God’s people in the end times will come from the persecution of the satanic Trinity of Satan, the beast and the false prophet.

God’s wrath is never on us – never. Worst scenario for us is God chastises His children out of love. But that is remedial - or it is for our benefit.

As you study the 7 vials and compare them to the 7 trumpets you cannot help but see that they parallel each other. This negates the chronological approach.

What is more: just prior to the last vial as persecution intensifies on this earth, and the wicked “gather themselves to the battle of that great day of God Almighty,” before the second coming, Jesus assures us in Revelation 16 :15: “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

Then at the 7th vial we hear: “And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.”

Revelation actually agrees with every other book in the Bible and proves that there is only one future coming of Christ and that the end is the end.

While things on this earth may get darker with the rampant rise of liberal lawlessness and a falling away from the faith, the true elect and their testimony will remain steadfast to the end.

 

[sovereigngrace]

sovereigngrace,

You are only fooling yourself.

1. John was in the Spirit on the Lords day 1:10. This was before the vision 1:12-18 and before the churches and before John was caught up through the portal to Heaven.
That doesn’t mean it was the only reason for 4:1.

2. Revelation 1:19 is the time factor for the book.
The vision was the things John saw.
The things which are was the present churches at the time in Asia. It also includes the whole church age because it is a prophecy.
The things hereafter were after John went through the portal to Heaven and includes the Heavenly scene in 4-5 and the tribulation 6-19; 20 the 1000 years, the 1st and 2nd resurrections and the GWTJ and 21-22 of the New Heaven and New Earth to the Holy City coming down from Heaven.

3. 7 Years is the last week of Daniels 70th week Isaiah 9:24-27.
It is two periods of 1260 days Revelation Daniel 9:27; 12:7; Revelation 11:2.
Your 19 years is bogus because you just added up al of them to total 19 years instead of understanding they happen within the 7 years.
And if you go from the 5 months in the trumpets they will already be in the last 3.5 years Revelation 11:2.

4. I’ve already explained that it doesn’t matter that the word church is not in those chapters.
The Pre Trib position is that there are no earmarks of the church from 6-18 on the earth. There is earmarks in Heaven Revelation 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:7-10.
So you are wrong on every single point.
Jerry Kelso

Where is your rapture in Revelation? You have yet to show me.

There is no such thing as "Church age." That is a Pretrib invention. Show me where it states that in the Bible? The Church began with the first congregation of God's people in the OT.

 

[Guojing]

LOL. That is only one of a thousand reasons. Believe me! Pretrib does not even have one single proof text that teaches there will be (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ.

But why do you believe we are currently in the time of Jacob's trouble? Where are the 2 witnesses? Where are the signs that are supposed to be happening in Revelations 11:6?

 

[sovereigngrace]

The things hereafter were after John went through the portal to Heaven and includes the Heavenly scene in 4-5 and the tribulation 6-19; 20 the 1000 years, the 1st and 2nd resurrections and the GWTJ and 21-22 of the New Heaven and New Earth to the Holy City coming down from Heaven.

No! That is what your teachers have taught you. That is not what the text says. You carefully avoided my previous rebuttal below.

Revelation 4:1-2 has absolutely nothing to do with a secret rapture. In fact, note what it actually says and how it compares to similarly worded passages in Revelation. Remember, the safest way to understand Scripture is to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”

There is no allusion here of the Lord descending in the clouds from heaven, there is no mention of the Church, we don’t see the saints rising to meet Him, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected and those who are alive and remain being caught up, there is no meeting Jesus in the air. It is all an elaborate hoax formulated by men which enjoys no biblical basis for their doctrine.

(1) Who was this command addressed to?
(2) When did, or will, this event occur?
(3) What was it specifically speaking of?

(1) John
(2) It occurred 2,000 years ago
(3) John being caught up “in the spirit” into “heaven” to receive a supernatural revelation of things to come “hereafter.”

In this reading, the Lord simply commands John to “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” The revelation that he would now receive would thus relate to events from this time (2,000 years ago) forth. The same idea and similar wording is found in two other passages in this apocalyptic book, after he had been caught up:

Revelation 17:1-3 in the same way says, “And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters … So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Revelation 21:9-10 in the same way says, “And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.”

Three times John is commanded “come hither” and all three times he is expressly “in the spirit.” All three passages closely mirror each other, in the sense that they describe the same supernatural manner in which John received the visions. Notwithstanding, none of them make the slightest allusion to the catching away of the saints.

Revelation 4:1-2 “come up hither” “in the spirit”
Revelation 17:1-3 “come hither” “in the spirit”
Revelation 21:9-10 “come hither” “in the spirit”

If the Pretribbers insist on Revelation 4:1-2 being a definite record of the rapture then they must also accept Revelation 17:1-3 and Revelation 21:9-10 as recording two similar secret raptures. That is if they are going to be consistent.