THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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FineLinen

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[9], Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Yep no more second chances...

God bless

Dear gambling lady of chances. I will state it again: our Dearest Daddy Abba does NOT operate in the realm of chance! He has cherished in His own Being, with no consultation with any of us dorks earthly or heavenly, His destined Plan. PERIOD!

Dr. Marvin Vincent

olethron aionion in 2 Thess. 1:9:


‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities.

There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21. Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3. The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity.

It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come.

It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject’s life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. “The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum.”

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, ‘o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.

They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting.

Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God’s relations to time.

God’s eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.

That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of “the everlasting power and divinity of God.” In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that “the mystery” has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title ‘o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10.

The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father’s commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: “In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. ‘Eternal life’ is that which St. Paul speaks of as ‘e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and ‘e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order.”

Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical.

The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.

In the present passage it is urged that olethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition.

If this be true, if olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish. Peter says “the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, “they shall perish” (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. “They shall be changed” (allagesontai). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, “the Son of man came to save that which was lost” (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, “He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it,” Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.

In this passage, the word destruction is qualified.

It is “destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power,” at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ’s coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.

If we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?

Also, if we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?
 
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FineLinen

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Dear Lady: There are many dimensions in Abba's House. Those dwelling places are poikilos (varied) in character & each one destined of the Author of us all as realms of fellowship within Him.

Fire, Divine Pur, is what bathes our union within Him.

Dear Abba: Baptize us in Your Fire

Dear Lady: One of these lovely days I intend to post the glorious dimensions of His Fire, (if I can find my inhaler in time lol), on this wonderful link Love has started. Please be patient with an old geezer.

Deut. 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Deut. 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

It is not the wicked that will be dwelling in the devouring fire:

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil.

Like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; We will be able to stand in the presence of a Holy God and not be destroyed:

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

d007e0fcf84c10ca88a4ebf564359e09c9a76bec.jpeg
 
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FineLinen

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Love is patient, love is kind.

Isaiah 6:5-7 is a good one.

Yup.

God is love, love never fails, God never fails, EVER!

Perfect=

Brought to consummation or completeness; completed.

Not defective nor redundant.

Having all the properties or qualities requisite to its nature and kind;

Without flaw, fault, or blemish;

Without error; mature; whole; pure; sound; right; correct.

A complete and satisfactory close in harmony.

A tense which expresses an act or state completed.

To make perfect; to finish or complete, so as to leave nothing wanting; to give to anything all that is requisite to its nature and kind.

This is the consummation of the Divine embrace as the Author brings everything back into Himself in perfect harmony and at-one-ment as the Finisher.
 
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Jay Sea

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Hi Jay nice to meet you and thanks for sharing your thoughts. Sorry for the slow reply as I have had some catching up to do. Not sure of your question dear friend (it may be because I just woke up) Do you mind letting me know more about what you mean? Definition in relation to? Thanks Jay,

Blessings.
Hi Jay nice to meet you and thanks for sharing your thoughts. Sorry for the slow reply as I have had some catching up to do. Not sure of your question dear friend (it may be because I just woke up) Do you mind letting me know more about what you mean? Definition in relation to? Thanks Jay,

Blessings.
Quote from you.
"What do the teachings of universalism (everyone will be saved no matter what they do) means to you?"
I was just showing possibilities recognised in Catholic teaching where there is possibility outside the normal channels. It would seem to me that teaching this relies on a view of the not judging others in their relationship to God and Jeshua and the work of the Holy Spirit in them.

in love
Jay
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord wrote: WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE WICKED AT THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS?

2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10 [6], SEEING IT IS A RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO RECOMPENSE TRIBULATION TO THEM THAT TROUBLE YOU; [7], AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS, [8], IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST: [9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER; [10], WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, AND TO BE ADMIRED IN ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE BECAUSE OUR TESTIMONY AMONG YOU WAS BELIEVED IN THAT DAY. Yep no more second chances...
Your response...
Dear gambling lady of chances. I will state it again: our Dearest Daddy Abba does NOT operate in the realm of chance! He has cherished in His own Being, with no consultation with any of us dorks early or heavenly, His destined Plan. PERIOD!

Dear gampling lady of second chances, there is no gambling in faith. It is as sure as the setting of the sun to those who believe God's Word. The gambling lady is the one that does not believe God's Word and thinks they can live like the devil today because they gamble with their eternal life thinking they can have a second chance at God's Kingdom tommorrow. Trusting in the doctrine of devils only leads us away from God and his Word to gambling ones life away on the betting tables of second chances where the odds of not believing God's Word are against us. There is no gambling when one has faith in God's Word dear Fine. Those that trust and believe God's Word follow are sure thing. Those who do not are gambling with their eternal life.
 
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FineLinen

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Your response...


Dear gampling lady of second chances, there is no gambling in faith.

I know not what a "gampling" lady is. I do know, however, what it means when you post, "Yep no more second chances."

Your wee world of Abba evidently has chance imbedded in your vision of Him, mine does not!

“It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance–the forgiveness of our offences–so abundant was God’s grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the mystery of His will. And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it-- the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."
 
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FineLinen

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No chance: His Purposed Plan!

"He thought of everything, provided for everything we could possibly need, letting us in on the plans he took such delight in making. He set it all out before us in Christ, a long-range plan in which everything would be brought together and summed up in him, everything in deepest heaven, everything on planet earth. It’s in Christ that we find out who we are and what we are living for. Long before we first heard of Christ and got our hopes up, he had his eye on us, had designs on us for glorious living, part of the overall purpose he is working out in everything and everyone."
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord wrote: WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE WICKED AT THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS?

2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10 [6], SEEING IT IS A RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO RECOMPENSE TRIBULATION TO THEM THAT TROUBLE YOU; [7], AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS, [8], IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST: [9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER; [10], WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, AND TO BE ADMIRED IN ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE BECAUSE OUR TESTIMONY AMONG YOU WAS BELIEVED IN THAT DAY. Yep no more second chances...
Your response..
Dr. Marvin Vincent olethron aionion in 2 Thess. 1:9:

‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities.

There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21. Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3. The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity.

It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come.

It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject’s life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. “The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum.”

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, ‘o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.

They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.


Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting.

Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God’s relations to time.


God’s eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.

That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of “the everlasting power and divinity of God.” In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that “the mystery” has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title ‘o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10.


The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father’s commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: “In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. ‘Eternal life’ is that which St. Paul speaks of as ‘e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and ‘e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order.”

Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical.

The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.

In the present passage it is urged that olethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition.

If this be true, if olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish. Peter says “the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, “they shall perish” (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. “They shall be changed” (allagesontai). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, “the Son of man came to save that which was lost” (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, “He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it,” Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.

In this passage, the word destruction is qualified.

It is “destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power,” at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ’s coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.

If we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?

Also, if we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?

Please dear friend, enough with the gobbdygook of men and back to the pure Words of God. There is nothing in what you have posted above from the opinions of men that deletes or makes not true the very scripture and word of God you are quoting from. 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10 shows that the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming in God's fires of vengence the wicked receive who believed not the Gospel of our Lord JESUS Christ. These are Gods' Words not mine. Yet you seek to change them with the Words of men. Your seeking to make arguments no one is making which is only a distraction of confusion to the truth being told through the scriptures. It is time to come out of BABYLON and stop drinknig from the doctrines of devils dear gambling lady of second chances.
 
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I know not what a "gampling" lady is. I do know, however, what it means when you post, "Yep no more second chances." Your wee world of Abba evidently has chance imbedded in your vision of Him, mine does not!
“It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance–the forgiveness of our offences–so abundant was God’s grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the mystery of His will. And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it-- the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

Yet your preaching the gambling lady's doctrine of second chances when no teaching is found in the Word of God where no gambling is found for all those who have faith. For me, he must increase and I must decrease. I only point all to the Word of God because it is there we find the one who loves us that we may love him. I know him and am known by him. All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind. He tells me it is those that say they see that do not see. These are they that have once known him or do not know him. There is only life in the living Word. These are his Words and not my own. Freely I give because freely I have received. I must speak in the light and what I hear preach in the housetops. Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him. Many are called but few are chosen. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day. It is time to leave the gambling lady of second chances dear Fine and return to the pure Word of God.
 
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Your response..


Please dear friend, enough with the gobbdygook of men and back to the pure Words of God. There is nothing in what you have posted above from the opinions of men that deletes or makes not true the very scripture and word of God you are quoting from. 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10 shows that the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming in God's fires of vengence to all those who believed not the Gospel of our Lord JESUS Christ. These are Gods' Words not mine. Yet you seek to change them with the Words of men. Seeking to make arguments no one is making is simply a distraction of confusion to the truth being told through the scriptures. It is time to come out of BABYLON and stop drinknig from the doctrines of devils dear gambling lady of second chances.

You poor dear soul: the words of men are from one of the finest scholars of koine ever. Are we to assume you are more schooled in the foundation of the word of God? If your excursion into the vast musterion secrets of the Holy One were before us we would be more patient, but alas, neither are in evidence.

His cherished Plan is from Heaven, totally flowing from Himself.
 
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You poor dear soul: the words of men are from one of the finest scholars of koine ever. Are we to assume you are more schooled in the foundation of the word of God? If your excursion into the vast musterion secrets of the Holy One were before us we would be more patient, but alas, neither are in evidence. His cherished Plan is from Heaven, totally flowing from Himself.

Indeed I am poor and hungry yet he feeds me, blind but he makes me see, lame but he makes me to walk and deaf but he makes me hear. Yet there is nothing you have provided from your commentary of men that deletes the scriptures you were responding to dear Fine or changes the scriptures overall meaning.

Where does it say in your commentary that 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10 does not mean that the wicked will not be destroyed at the second coming and that the wicked will not be destroyed by God's fiery vengence when he returns? I am happy to wait for you to show me but there is nothing written there.

All you provided was a distraction. Time to leave the gambling lady of second chances dear Fine and return back to the pure Words of God. There is no gambling in God's Word and no second chances from the gambling lady at the second coming.

May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed
 
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FineLinen

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Yet there is nothing you have provided from your commentary of men that deletes the scriptures you were responding to dear Fine or changes the scriptures overall meaning.

Where does it say in your commentary that 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10 does not mean that the wicked will not be destroyed at the second coming and that the wicked will not be destroyed by God's fiery vengence when he returns? I am happy to wait for you to show me but there is nothing written there.

It is simply impossible to change the koine out of which the Scriptures are rooted. Our God is fire, all of us will dwell with Him in that holy blaze, the radical all of pas. Pas is not tis.

Our Abba does not destroy sinners, He transforms each and every one of them radically in Himself, the unlimited One. The radical adjustment by the Lord of ta pante has destined it to be so!

God’s Utter Extravagance=

"To say that sin, assuming it to be opposed to God, has the power of creating a world antagonistic to God as everlasting as He is, attributes to it a power equal at least to His; since according to this view, souls whom God willed to be saved, and for whom Christ died, are held in bondage under the power of sin for ever; and all this in opposition to the Word of God, which says that God’s Son was “manifested that He might destroy the works of the devil…” -Andrew Jukes (The Restitution of all Things)

“To go on punishing for ever, simply for punishment’s sake, shocks every sentiment of justice. And the case is so much worse when the punishment is really the prolongation of evil, when it is but making evil endless.” -Thomas Allin, Christ Triumphant-

"The almighty maker of souls has various methods of restoring them to the divine image; it is impossible his power can fail; it is impossible for his image to be entirely obliterated; it is impossible that misery, sin, and discord can be eternal! –Alison R. Cockburn-

iu
 
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It is simply impossible to change the koine out of which the Scriptures are rooted. Our God is fire, all of us will dwell with Him in that holy blaze, the radical all of pas. Pas is not tis.
Our Abba does not destroy sinners, He transforms each and every one of them radically in Himself, the unlimited One. The radical adjustment by the Lord of ta pante has destined it to be so!

God’s Utter Extravagance=

"To say that sin, assuming it to be opposed to God, has the power of creating a world antagonistic to God as everlasting as He is, attributes to it a power equal at least to His; since according to this view, souls whom God willed to be saved, and for whom Christ died, are held in bondage under the power of sin for ever; and all this in opposition to the Word of God, which says that God’s Son was “manifested that He might destroy the works of the devil…” -Andrew Jukes (The Restitution of all Things)

“To go on punishing for ever, simply for punishment’s sake, shocks every sentiment of justice. And the case is so much worse when the punishment is really the prolongation of evil, when it is but making evil endless.” -Thomas Allin, Christ Triumphant-

"The almighty maker of souls has various methods of restoring them to the divine image; it is impossible his power can fail; it is impossible for his image to be entirely obliterated; it is impossible that misery, sin, and discord can be eternal! –Alison R. Cockburn-

Oh goodness dear Fine what waffle. The Koine Greek agrees with 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10
it seems your understanding of it does not however. I asked you in the last post to show me where it says in your commentary that 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10 does not mean that the wicked will not be destroyed at the second coming and that the wicked will not be destroyed by God's fiery vengence when he returns? I am happy to wait for you to show me but there is nothing written there. Yet here I am still waiting? It is God's Word that says that the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming. This you cannot deny unless you deny God's very Words to believe the gambling lady of second chances.

2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10 [6], SEEING IT IS A RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO RECOMPENSE TRIBULATION TO THEM THAT TROUBLE YOU; [7], AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS, [8], IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST: [9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER; [10], WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, AND TO BE ADMIRED IN ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE BECAUSE OUR TESTIMONY AMONG YOU WAS BELIEVED IN THAT DAY. Yep no more second chances..

PARALLEL TRANSLATIONS OF 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9

New International Version
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

New Living Translation
They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.

English Standard Version
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Berean Study Bible
They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,

Berean Literal Bible
who will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

New American Standard Bible
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

New King James Version
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

King James Bible
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Christian Standard Bible
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord's presence and from his glorious strength

Contemporary English Version
Their punishment will be eternal destruction, and they will be kept far from the presence of our Lord and his glorious strength.

Good News Translation
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord's presence and from His glorious strength

International Standard Version
Such people will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power

NET Bible
They will undergo the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,

New Heart English Bible
who will pay the penalty: everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For they will be paid in judgment: eternal destruction from the face of our Lord and from the glory of his power,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power.

New American Standard 1977
And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

King James 2000 Bible
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

American King James Version
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

American Standard Version
who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Douay-Rheims Bible
Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

Darby Bible Translation
who shall pay the penalty [of] everlasting destruction from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

English Revised Version
who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Webster's Bible Translation
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Weymouth New Testament
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

World English Bible
who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Young's Literal Translation
who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

............

As posted earlier eternal (αἰώνιον; aiōnion) destruction (ὄλεθρον; olethron) is not changed in the overall conext to the meaning of the scripture which is the destruction of the wicked at the second coming.

Time to leave the gambling lady of second chances and the teachings of men that lead us away from the Word of God as there is no more second chances at the second coming dear Fine.

Hope this helps
 
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FineLinen

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Oh goodness dear Fine what waffle. The Koine Greek agrees with 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10
it seems your understanding of it does not however. I asked you in the last post to show me where it says in your commentary that 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10 does not mean that the wicked will not be destroyed at the second coming and that the wicked will not be destroyed by God's fiery vengence when he returns? I am happy to wait for you to show me but there is nothing written there. Yet here I am still waiting? It is God's Word that says that the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming. This you cannot deny unless you deny God's very Words to believe the gambling lady of second chances.

2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10 [6], SEEING IT IS A RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO RECOMPENSE TRIBULATION TO THEM THAT TROUBLE YOU; [7], AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS, [8], IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST: [9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER; [10], WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, AND TO BE ADMIRED IN ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE BECAUSE OUR TESTIMONY AMONG YOU WAS BELIEVED IN THAT DAY. Yep no more second chances..

PARALLEL TRANSLATIONS OF 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9

New International Version
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

New Living Translation
They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.

English Standard Version
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Berean Study Bible
They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,

Berean Literal Bible
who will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

New American Standard Bible
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

New King James Version
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

King James Bible
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Christian Standard Bible
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord's presence and from his glorious strength

Contemporary English Version
Their punishment will be eternal destruction, and they will be kept far from the presence of our Lord and his glorious strength.

Good News Translation
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord's presence and from His glorious strength

International Standard Version
Such people will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power

NET Bible
They will undergo the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,

New Heart English Bible
who will pay the penalty: everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For they will be paid in judgment: eternal destruction from the face of our Lord and from the glory of his power,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power.

New American Standard 1977
And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

King James 2000 Bible
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

American King James Version
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

American Standard Version
who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Douay-Rheims Bible
Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

Darby Bible Translation
who shall pay the penalty [of] everlasting destruction from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

English Revised Version
who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Webster's Bible Translation
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Weymouth New Testament
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

World English Bible
who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Young's Literal Translation
who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

............

As posted earlier eternal (αἰώνιον; aiōnion) destruction (ὄλεθρον; olethron) is not changed in the overall conext to the meaning of the scripture which is the destruction of the wicked at the second coming.

Time to leave the gambling lady of second chances and the teachings of men that lead us away from the Word of God as there is no more second chances at the second coming dear Fine.

Hope this helps

Wow!

How did you miss the YLT and Rotherham's Emphasized on the list of translations?

One question =

One question = If aiōnios is the same as aidios why is aiōnios in the plural & why is the Aidios God the ONLY one who is aidios?

"For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead..."
 
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Wow!

How did you miss the YLT and Rotherham's Emphasized on the list of translations?

One question =

One question = If aiōnios is the same as aidios why is aiōnios in the plural & why is the Aidios God the ONLY one who is aidios?

I didn't miss anything dear Fine, I added it on purpose to show that what you posted in the commetary makes not difference to the overall meaning of interpretation of the the scriptures that shows that the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming with no more second chances given by the lady of gambling. You still have not picked up on this dear Fine.

No one is saying that aiōnios is the same as aidios. The point being made is that these words to not change the overall meaning of the scripture which is that the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming which is proven and shown in every translation provided. Time to leave the lady of second chances and the teachings of men and return back to the pure Word of God dear Fine

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word. Ignoring it will not make it disappear.
 
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I didn't miss anything dear Fine, I added it on purpose to show that what you posted in the commetary makes not difference to the overall meaning of interpretation of the the scriptures that shows that the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming with no more second chances given by the lady of gambling.

You did NOT add YLT or Rotherham's, you failed to list them.

You failed to answer the question: I will post it again.

If aiōnios is the same as aidios, why is aiōnios in the plural & why is the Aidios God the ONLY one who is aidios?
 
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You failed to answer the question: I will post it again.

If aiōnios is the same as aidios, why is aiōnios in the plural & why is the Aidios God the ONLY one who is aidios?

It is answered above your post. This is simply a smoke screen that has been blown away in the previous post above yours. The daylight is shinning come outside and see the light dear friend. The light is shinning and there is no darkness in the light. Open your eyes dear friend YLT is the very last reference in the parrallel list of translations.
 
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It is answered above your post. This is simply a smoke screen that has been blown away in the previous post above yours. The daylight is shinning come outside and see the light dear friend. The light is shinning and there is no darkness in the light.

So, you then agree that aiōnios is NOT the same as aidios. Is that correct?

You still, however, have failed to disclose why aiōnios is in the plural form.
 
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So, you then agree that aiōnios is NOT the same as aidios. Is that correct? You still, however have failed to disclose why aiōnios is in the plural form.

As has been shown earlier dear friend I have not failed anything. I have simply shared Gods' Word. I am not sure if you are having a hard time following or not. As posted earlier the point being made is that
aidios, aiōnios plural or singular is not relavant to my argument which does not change the overall interpretation of the scripture as proven in nearly every parrallel translation that the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming which is proven and shown in every translation provided. Time to leave the lady of second chances and the teachings of men and return back to the pure Word of God dear Fine.
Can you understand the point being made now dear friend? The smoke is blown away and the daylight destroys the darkness as there is no darkness in light.

Hope this is helpful
 
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