the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues

[john14_20]

Thanks Dottie for that food for thought.

I will now bring some supper!

Why do we need to believe in Jesus in order to get 'in' Him, when we don't have to believe in Adam to get 'in' him?

Blessings, Pete

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Thanks Dottie for that food for thought.

I will now bring some supper!

Why do we need to believe in Jesus in order to get 'in' Him, when we don't have to believe in Adam to get 'in' him?

Blessings, Pete[/SIZE]

You claim to be bringing supper and all you have brought are table scraps, and I doubt even the dog will eat them.

Last time I checked every person living is a literal, physcial descendant of Adam, i.e. "in" Adam. Unless you come from a different planet? No belief required, just a statement of fact.

OTOH, not everyone is a believer in, follower of, "in" Christ, by being born a descendant of Adam. So as DrSteve said, "in Christ," i.e. those who believe. I would paraphrase it, "All in, and only those in, Christ will be made alive."

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Say what?
Surely you do not think Jesus spoke in English do you?[/SIZE]

If you expect a reasoned, rational, response from me do not insult my intelligence and spew out drivel like this. I know I clearly said Jesus spoke Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek in at least one post, very probably in this thread. If you are deliberately tying to tick me off this is the way to do it.

Maybe he spoke in Greek? Some say yes, others say he spoke in Aramaic.

Jesus spoke to a number of people the Roman soldier, Greeks travellers, Samaritan woman, Herod, who would not have know Aramaic. And to reach the greatest number of people, which I think was His intention, He would have spoken Greek.

The Jews were very familiar with the word sheol used throughout the OT. I think it reasonable and logical to assume this is probably the word Jesus used rather than hades, and that hades was the Greek translation for sheol.

Proves you are not even reading my posts. Also see answer immediately above.

As for Hades not being a pagan god, haven't you ever read any mythology? Never reasearched the word hades.

Well I do stand corrected Hades was a pagan deity, but it was also the name of the underworld, the place of the departed, and that is the sense in which Jeuss used it when He spoke to non-Hebrew Jews and gentiles who did not undersatnd Hebrew or Aramaic.

But no, I am not the least bit interested in mythology. I get all I need from people trying to claim that this, that, or the other in the Bible was copied from mythology, etc.

And I note extensive quotes which do not address the information I posted. Nothing you posted addressed or refuted the sources I quoted. Discuss or don't but I'm not going to play dueling quotes.

I have backed up my position from historical sources. A bunch of 19th/20th century scholars opinions are not worth much.

 

[john14_20]

You claim to be bringing supper and all you have brought are table scraps, and I doubt even the dog will eat them.

Last time I checked every person living is a literal, physcial descendant of Adam, i.e. "in" Adam. Unless you come from a different planet? No belief required, just a statement of fact.

OTOH, not everyone is a believer in, follower of, "in" Christ, by being born a descendant of Adam. So as DrSteve said, "in Christ," i.e. those who believe. I would paraphrase it, "All in, and only those in, Christ will be made alive."

Thanks for your paraphrase, but I think I will just stick with what the Bible actually says.

I don't care for the food scraped out of the bottom of the trash bins that you are serving up, I'll stick with the three course meal of the Scriptures.

 

[john14_20]

OTOH, not everyone is a believer in, follower of, "in" Christ, by being born a descendant of Adam. So as DrSteve said, "in Christ," i.e. those who believe. I would paraphrase it, "All in, and only those in, Christ will be made alive."

You overlook the fact that Christ is the second Adam.

He is greater than Adam, not less than him.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Thanks for your paraphrase, but I think I will just stick with what the Bible actually says.

I don't care for the food scraped out of the bottom of the trash bins that you are serving up, I'll stick with the three course meal of the Scriptures.[/SIZE]

Three course meals? Nobody can get a three course meal from out-of-context proof texting, a piece of a verse here and piece of verse there, and anything that contradicts your assumptions and presuppostions, well that is just allegorical, metaphorical, figurative, symbolical, or spiritual, or anything but literal.

And I went on to explain why your view was wrong. You just knee jerked an insulting comment.

[SIZE=-1]You overlook the fact that Christ is the second Adam.

He is greater than Adam, not less than him.[/size]

Didn't overlook anything. Christ IS greater than Adam. Adam didn't raise the dead, heal the sick,etc. but that is irrelevant. You are not greater than Adam, I'm not, the guy down the street is not. So none of us are automatically "in" Christ. Remember what Christ said, "Whosoever believes IN me, shall not perish, but have everlasting life?" But He did not stop there He also said, "he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed IN the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Also Jesus is the standard, not the apostolic writing. If the apostolic writings appear to conflict with the words of Jesus, we ALWAYS resolve them to agree with Jesus. We do not ignore or reinterpret the words of Jesus to agree with our interpretation of one or two out-of-context verses from the apostles.

 

[Soul Searcher]

If you expect a reasoned, rational, response from me do not insult my intelligence and spew out drivel like this. I know I clearly said Jesus spoke Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek in at least one post, very probably in this thread. If you are deliberately tying to tick me off this is the way to do it.

No I'm not trying to tick you off. Keep in mind you had just accused me of being a liar when I pointed out that hades was the name of a Greek god.

 

[john14_20]

You just knee jerked an insulting comment.

At least you realise you are insulting

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]At least you realise you are insulting [/SIZE]

Is that what I said? I don't think so. My exact words, "And I went on to explain why your view was wrong. You just knee jerked an insulting comment."

But rather than engange in a meaningless round and round, "I said, you said, did not, did too." Which, OBTW, is a clever digression which conceals the fact that virtually all the evidence I previously posted has been all but ignored. There was some idle chit chat about literalism, and three legged dogs, but no counter interpretation/exegesis. Such as why did Jesus say, e.g. "not" and "never," when according, to U/As He really meant "later."

Here is more historical support for the traditional, Evanglical, Christian view and refutation of the universalist/annihilationsist, view. I am certain that the early Christians taught by John the apostle were taught correctly.

To verify writings of the ECF, click (here).

All the early church fathers, who wrote about the final judgment of mankind, unanimously refer to it as everlasting, eternal, unending, etc., and none mention any second opportunity, after death, to repent and be granted eternal life[size=+1]![/size]

Ignatius and Polycarp, quoted below, were disciples of John the beloved, who wrote the gospel, three epistles, and Revelation, and Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp. Could it be, as many modern false heresies teach, that John was wrong, John taught his disciples wrong, and the church has been in error for almost 2000 years, until the truth was supposedly discovered by JWs, UPCI, WWCG, LDS, or some other false doctrine[size=+1]?[/size]

The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Ephesians [30-107 AD]

Do not err, my brethren. Those that corrupt families shall [size=+1]not[/size] inherit the kingdom of God[Note, “shall not” means they “shall not EVER” inherit! DA][/I]. And if those that corrupt mere human families are condemned to death, how much more shall those suffer everlasting punishment who endeavor to corrupt the Church of Christ, for which the Lord Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, endured the cross, and submitted to death! Whosoever, “being waxen fat,” and “become gross,” sets at nought His doctrine, shall go into hell.

The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Philadelphians.

If any man follows him that separates from the truth, he shall [size=+1]not[/size] inherit the kingdom of God;[/I][Note, “shall not” means they “shall not EVER” inherit! DA] and if any man does not stand aloof from the preacher of falsehood, he shall be condemned to hell.

The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Smyrnaeans

Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. For “in Hades there is [size=+1]no one[/size] who can confess his sins.”[Note, repentance requires confession. In hell (hades) no one can confess his sins! DA]

The Martyrdom of Polycarp [65-100-155 AD]

But Polycarp said, “Thou threatenest me with fire which burneth for an hour, and after a little is extinguished, but art ignorant of the fire of the coming judgment and of eternal punishment, reserved for the ungodly.

The Epistle Of Barnabas The Way Of Darkness, [100 AD]

But the way of darkness is crooked, and full of cursing; for it is the way of eternal death with punishment, in which way are the things that destroy the soul, viz., idolatry, over-confidence, the arrogance of power, hypocrisy, double-heartedness, adultery, murder, rapine, haughtiness, transgression, deceit, malice, self-sufficiency, poisoning, magic, avarice, want of the fear of God.

The First Apology Of Justin Chapter 1 [110-165 AD]

And Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo [size=+1]everlasting[/size] punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years.[Note, further clarifies “everlasting” as [size=+1]not[/size] a finite period such as 1000 years. DA]

Brethren, be not deceived. If any man follows him that separates from the truth, he shall [size=+1]not[/size] inherit the kingdom of God;[Note, “shall not” means they “shall not EVER” inherit! DA] and if any man does not stand aloof from the preacher of falsehood, he shall be condemned to hell. For it is obligatory neither to separate from the godly, nor to associate with the ungodly.

Christians Live As Under God’s Eye

And more than all other men are we your helpers and allies in promoting peace, seeing that we hold this view, that it is alike impossible for the wicked, the covetous, the conspirator, and for the virtuous, to escape the notice of God, and that each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. For if all men knew this, no one would choose wickedness even for a little, knowing that he goes to the everlasting punishment of fire; but would by all means restrain himself, and adorn himself with virtue, that he might obtain the good gifts of God, and escape the punishments.

But if you pay no regard to our prayers and frank explanations, we shall suffer no loss, since we believe (or rather, indeed, are persuaded) that every man will suffer punishment in eternal fire according to the merit of his deed, and will render account according to the power he has received from God, as Christ intimated when He said, “To whom God has given more, of him shall more be required.”

Chapter 18 Proof Of Immortality And The Resurrection

For reflect upon the end of each of the preceding kings, how they died the death common to all, which, if it issued in insensibility, would be a godsend to all the wicked. But since sensation remains to all who have ever lived, and eternal punishment is laid up (i.e., for the wicked), see that ye neglect not to be convinced, and to hold as your belief, that these things are true.

And if you also read these words in a hostile spirit, ye can do no more, as I said before, than kill us; which indeed does no harm to us, but to you and all who unjustly hate us, and do not repent, brings eternal punishment by fire.

And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” and then shall they [size=+1]repent, when it profits them not[/size][Note, repentance in hell is too late! DA].

The Second Apology Of Justin Martyr
But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed. and this is the nature of all that is made, to be capable of vice and virtue.

And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them.

Chapter 9 Eternal Punishment Not A Mere Threat
And that no one may say what is said by those who are deemed philosophers, that our assertions that the wicked are punished in eternal fire are big words and bugbears, and that we wish men to live virtuously through fear, and not because such a life is good and pleasant; I will briefly reply to this, that if this be not so, God does not exist; or, if He exists, He cares not for men, and neither virtue nor vice is anything, and, as we said before, lawgivers unjustly punish those who transgress good commandments.

But these filthy garments, which have been put by you on all who have become Christians by the name of Jesus, God shows shall be taken away from us, when He shall raise all men from the dead, and appoint some to be incorruptible, immortal, and free from sorrow in the everlasting and imperishable kingdom; but shall send others away to the everlasting punishment of fire.

Justin’s Hortatory Address To The Greeks.
For neither will you commit any offense against your fathers, if you now show a desire to betake yourselves to that which is quite opposed to their error, since it is likely enough that they themselves are now lamenting in Hades, and [size=+1]repenting with a too late repentance[/size][Note, repentance in hell is too late! DA]; and if it were possible for them to show you thence what had befallen them after the termination of this life, ye would know from what fearful ills they desired to deliver you.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 4 [120-202 AD] Disciple of Ignatius

2. For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being [size=+1]not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal[/size] [Irenaeus, Ignatius’ disciple, clarifies “eternal” as [size=+1]not[/size] temporal and “damned for ever”. DA]. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,” these shall be [size=+1]damned for ever[/size];

For all these have fallen from the truth. And the heretics, indeed, who bring strange fire to the altar of God — namely, strange doctrines — shall be burned up by the fire from heaven, as were Nadab and Abiud. But such as rise up in opposition to the truth, and exhort others against the Church of God, [size=+1][shall] remain among those in hell[/size](apud inferos) [Note, “shall remain” does not allow for some later release! DA], being swallowed up by an earthquake, even as those who were with Chore, Dathan, and Abiron. But those who cleave asunder, and separate the unity of the Church, [shall] receive from God the same punishment as Jeroboam did.

Chapter 27 The Future Judgment By Christ. Communion With And Separation From The Divine Being. The Eternal Punishment Of Unbelievers
1. . . .For “He came to divide a man against his father, and the daughter against the mother, and the daughter-in-law against the mother-in-law;” and when two are in one bed, to take the one, and to leave the other; and of two women grinding at the mill, to take one and leave the other: [also] at the time of the end, to order the reapers to collect first the tares together, and bind them in bundles, and burn them with unquenchable fire, but to gather up the wheat into the barn; and to call the lambs into the kingdom prepared for them, but to send the goats into everlasting fire, which has been prepared by His Father for the devil and his angels And why is this? Has the Word come for the ruin and for the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in the judgment-day than that of Sodom and Gomorrah; but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will of His Father in heaven.

2. . . . But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God, He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in [size=+1]the loss of all the benefits which He has in store[/size] . [Note, this loss is “never ending”! See next sentence. DA] Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also [size=+1]eternal and never-ending[/size].[Note, “eternal” means “never ending”! DA]

Those Persons Prove Themselves Senseless Who Exaggerate The Mercy Of Christ, But Are Silent As To The Judgment, And Look Only At The More Abundant Grace Of The New Testament; But, Forgetful Of The Greater Degree Of Perfection Which It Demands
From Us, They Endeavor To Show That There Is Another God Beyond Him Who Created The World
1. Inasmuch, then, as in both Testaments there is the same righteousness of God [displayed] when God takes vengeance, in the one case indeed typically, temporarily, and more moderately; but in the other, really, enduringly, and more rigidly: for the fire is eternal, and the wrath of God which shall be revealed from heaven from the face of our Lord (as David also says, “But the face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth”), entails a heavier punishment on those who incur it, — the elders pointed out that those men are devoid of sense, who, [arguing] from what happened to those who formerly did not obey God, do endeavor to bring in another Father, setting over against [these punishments] what great things the Lord had done at His coming to save those who received Him, taking compassion upon them; while they keep silence with regard to His judgment;

One And The Same God The Father Inflicts Punishment On The Reprobate, And Bestows Rewards On The Elect
1 It is therefore one and the same God the Father who has prepared good things with Himself for those who desire His fellowship, and who remain in subjection to Him; and who has the eternal fire for the ringleader of the apostasy, the devil, and those who revolted with him, into which [fire] the Lord has declared those men shall be sent who have been set apart by themselves on His left hand.

Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending.

the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, according to their works; and death and hell were sent into the lake of fire, the second death.” Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal fire. “And if any one,” it is said, “was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire.”

Irenaeus Against Heresies
Souls Can Be Recognized In The Separate State, And Are Immortal Although They Once Had A Beginning.
1. . . .[He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognized, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class [of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.

Theophilus To Autolycus Book 1 [A.D. 115-168-181]
Admitting, therefore, the proof which events happening as predicted afford, I do not disbelieve, but I believe, obedient to God, whom, if you please, do you also submit to, believing Him, lest if now you continue unbelieving, you be convinced hereafter, when you are tormented with eternal punishments; which punishments, when they had been foretold by the prophets, the later-born poets and philosophers stole from the holy Scriptures, to make their doctrines worthy of credit. . . .But do you also, if you please, give reverential attention to the prophetic Scriptures, and they will make your way plainer for escaping the eternal punishments and obtaining the eternal prizes of God. . . But to the unbelieving and despisers, who obey not the truth, but are obedient to unrighteousness, when they shall have been filled with adulteries and fornications, and filthiness, and covetousness, and unlawful idolatries, there shall be anger and wrath, tribulation and anguish, and at the last everlasting fire shall possess such men.

Book 2
And they also taught us to refrain from unlawful idolatry, and adultery, and murder, fornication, theft, avarice, false swearing, wrath, and every incontinence and uncleanness; and that whatever a man would not wish to be done to himself, he should not do to another; and thus he who acts righteously shall escape the eternal punishments, and be thought worthy of the eternal life from God.

Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] On Idolatry of The Observance Of Days Connected With Idolatry
Thus, too, Eleazar in Hades, (attaining refreshment in Abraham’s bosom) and the rich man, (on the other hand, set in the torment of fire) compensate, by an answerable retribution, their alternate vicissitudes of evil and good.

Thus it happens that the rich man in hell has a tongue and poor (Lazarus) a finger and Abraham a bosom.[Stated as a matter of fact, not a parable! DA]

Moreover, the fact that [size=+1]Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul[/size], has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment. [size=+1]No one, (he said,) could possibly be dispatched from those abodes[/size] to report to us how matters went in the nether regions,[Note, those in the place of torment CANNOT escape! DA] — a purpose which, (if any could be,) might have been allowable on such an occasion, to persuade a belief in Moses and the prophets.

The Instructions Of Commodianus [A.D. 240]

In Favor Of Christian Discipline, Against The Gods Of The Heathens
26. To Those Who Resist The Law Of Christ The Living God.
Thou rejectest, unhappy one, the advantage of heavenly discipline, and rushest into death while wishing to stray without a bridle. Luxury and the shortlived joys of the world are ruining thee, whence thou shalt be [size=+1]tormented in hell for all time.[/size][Note, tormented for “all time”, NOT temporarily! DA]

Origen [A.D. 185-230-254]
His own law teaches thee; but since thou seekest to wander, thou disbelievest all things, and thence thou shalt go into hell. By and by thou givest up thy life; thou shalt be taken where it grieveth thee to be: there the spiritual punishment, which is eternal, is undergone; there are always wailings: nor dost thou absolutely die therein — there [size=+1]at length too late proclaiming the omnipotent God.[/size][Note, repentance in hell is too late! DA]

Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] BOOK 10 the Refutation of all Heresies: —
You shall escape the boiling flood of hell’s eternal lake of fire and the eye ever fixed in menacing glare of fallen angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins; and you shall escape the worm that ceaselessly coils for food around the body whose scum has bred it. Now such (torments) as these shalt thou avoid by being instructed in a knowledge of the true God.​

It has been suggested that God’s punishment always has the purpose of correction, cleansing, and forgiveness. Many convoluted, complicated, involved discussions have been posted, to support this, citing verses that have no relationship to punishment. Here are commands, which God gave the ancient Hebrews, concerning foreign idol worshipping nations and even Jewish elders, and priests who desecrated God’s own temple.

Notice, God tells his people to kill, to destroy, even the women and children and to have no mercy! Also God Himself says “my eye shall [size=+1]not[/size] spare, neither will I have pity.” Note, God said “not” He didn’t say “later”

Where is the cleansing, correction, and forgiveness in God’s dealing with the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites and his own elders and priests who desecrated the very temple of God. Did God direct that they be punished for a short period of time and when they were corrected and cleansed to be forgiven?

Deut 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

De 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

Jos 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

Jos 11:11 And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.

Ezek 9:4 And the LORD [size=+1]יהוה[/size] said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark* upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.
10 And as for me [[size=+1]יהוה[/size]] also, mine eye shall [SIZE=+1]not[/SIZE] spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.​

What is God’s nature as illustrated by these passages[size=+1]?[/size] Can those who defy God, curse Him, blaspheme Him, disobey His commandments, commit murder, and every other heinous crime, expect to be treated any different than the children and babies of the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites and the children and babies of the priests and elders of God’s own people who desecrated His temple[size=+1]?[/size]

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]No I'm not trying to tick you off. Keep in mind you had just accused me of being a liar when I pointed out that hades was the name of a Greek god.[/SIZE]

When you strongly implied that Hades was only the name of a pagan deity, and not the name of what the Jews called sheol, and in English, hell. Please see my documentation earlier in this thread. And OBTW I did not twist your words, as you did mine, I just said they were Garbanzo beans.

If you are interested in learning some historical facts about this topic, instead of just repeating what your leaders have spoon fed you, see the Septuagint. In virtually every case the Jewish translators, in 250 b.c., translated "sheol" as "hades." I guess those Jewish scholars were also inserting pagan words, and pagan concepts into the scriptrures?

If you care to actually read my posts and the evidence I posted from historical sources, NOT 19th/20th century scholars stating their opinions. Josephus was mildly interesting but he was a Jewish/Roman historian not a Theologian. Would you care to address the scriptural exegesis in the Jewish Encyclopedia article, I posted, second link below? I also posted lexical, and linguistic evidence, and quotes from the Talmud.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16742139&postcount=362

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16742207&postcount=363

 

[Der Alte]

It has been argued that the Bible is corrupt, Jesus never spoke the word "hades," Mat 11:23, 16:18; Luk 10:15, 16:23, that this was a pagan word/concept, allegedly, added hundreds of years later. Although there is no manuscript evidence to support it, this argument also claims that Jesus either said "sheol" or "Gehenna," not hades."

The majority of O.T. quotes in the N.T. are from the Septuagint (LXX), rather than the Hebrew O.T. When Jewish scholars translated the O.T. into Greek, 250 b.c., they translated "[size=+1]שׁאול[/size]/sheol," as "[size=+1]αδης[/size]/hades," see e.g. Deu 32:22. For those who spoke Greek, and not Hebrew or Aramaic, "Hades," was the equivalent of the Hebrew "Sheol." And this was about 1280 +/- years before the Universalists/Annihilationists, arguing here, claim.

Main Entry: Ha·des
Pronunciation: 'hA-(")dEz
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek HaidEs
1 : PLUTO
2 : the underground abode of the dead in Greek mythology
3 : SHEOL
4 often not capitalized : HELL
[size=-1]© 2005 Merriam-Webster, Incorporated[/size]

LXX Deu 32:22 οτι πυρ εκκεκαυται εκ του θυμου μου, καυθησεται εως αδου κατω, καταφαγεται γην και τα γενηματα αυτης, φλεξει θεμελια ορεων.​

Also as I have shown with extensive language resources "Hell" is the English equivalent of the Greek, "Hades," and the Hebrew, "Sheol."

Strong's G86 [size=+1]αδης[/size] hadēs hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

G86 [size=+1]αδης[/size] hadēs
Thayer Definition:
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
Part of Speech: noun proper locative
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492
Citing in TDNT: 1:146, 22​

 

[Soul Searcher]

When you strongly implied that Hades was only the name of a pagan deity, and not the name of what the Jews called sheol, and in English, hell. Please see my documentation earlier in this thread. And OBTW I did not twist your words, as you did mine, I just said they were Garbanzo beans.

Is that the way you see it?

You quoted this from me:
If I had to guess, I would say that he used the words sheol and whatever the hebrew word was for gehenna. I suspect that hades is the Greek translation for sheol, but I doubt that Jesus actually used the word hades, especially so if he knew it was the name of a pagan god, which undoubtedly he would have known.

Perhaps you should read it more carefully.

I was responding to a question from someone else, someone that I was fairly sure already knows that hades is the Greek word for the underworld which is ruled over by the god Hades. There was no falsehood, no intentional omission on my part. I simply provided an opinion that I thought to be on topic.

to which you replied:
Garbanzo beans! So according to you the Bible is corrupt? Jesus is quoted as saying things He did not say? As with most of the stuff being posted here in support of Universalism and Annihilationism, your post is false. 'Ades or Hades was not the name of a pagan god. Instead of just blindly parroting stuff you heard, at least have the honesty and integrity to check out what you say. Hades is listed in the dictionary.


Now my saying that you called me a liar was paraphrasing, but accurately imo.

As for reading all your posts, honestly most of them are rather long and my attention span is not.

Also you might want to take note it was not you I was talking to, that is until you jumped in and said my post was false.

In the future if you have a problem with something I have said say so but have the courtesy to refrain from insulting me while you are doing it.

That being said, let it be forgotten and move on with the topic at hand.
.

 

[Soul Searcher]

With all due respect, the defitions for the word hell depends on your source.

IMHO here is the most accurate text I have saw related to hell as it is used in the KJV.

For those of you who do not want to read long cut and paste, make sure to take a look at the part denoted in red as many people seem to be unaware of the way the word hell has evolved throughout history
Hell

Representing two distinct words: Gehenna and Hades (Greek), Sheol (Hebrew). Gehenna) is strictly "the valley of Hinnom" (Jos_15:8; Neh_11:30); "the valley of the children of Hinnom" (2Ki_23:10); "the valley of the son of Hinnom" (2Ch_28:3); "the valley of dead bodies," or Tophet, where malefactors' dead bodies were cast, S. of the city (Jer_31:40). A deep narrow glen S. of Jerusalem, where, after Ahaz introduced the worship of the fire gods, the sun, Baal, Moloch, the Jews under Manasseh made their children to pass through the fire (2Ch_33:6), and offered them as burntofferings (Jer_7:31; Jer_19:2-6). So the godly Josiah defiled the valley, making it a receptacle of carcass and criminals' corpses, in which worms were continually gendering.

A perpetual fire was kept to consume this putrefying matter; hence it became the image of that awful place where all that are unfit for the holy city are cast out a prey to the ever gnawing "worm" of conscience from within and the "unquenchable fire" of torments from without. Mar_9:42-50, "their worm dieth not." implies that not only the worm but they also on whom it preys die not; the language is figurative, but it represents corresponding realities never yet experienced, and therefore capable of being conveyed to us only by figures. The phrase "forever and ever " (eis tous aionas aioonoon) occurs 20 times in New Testament: 16 times of God, once of the saints' future blessedness, the three remaining of the punishment of the wicked and of the evil one: is it likely it is used 17 times of absolute eternity, yet three times of limited eternity?

The term for "everlasting" (aidiois) in Jud_1:6, "the angels who kept not their first estate He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day," is from a word meaning absolutely "always" (aei). Gehenna is used by our Lord Jesus (Mat_5:29-30; Mat_10:28; Mat_23:15; Mat_23:33; Luk_12:5); with the addition "of fire," Mat_5:22; Mat_18:9; Mar_9:47; and by James (Jam_3:6). Our present meaning of "hell" then applies to Gehenna, but not to the other word Hades or Sheol. "Hell" formerly did apply when the KJV of the Bible was written; it then meant "hole," "hollow," or unseen place.

Sheol comes from a root "to make hollow," the common receptacle of the dead below the earth (Num_16:30; Deu_32:22), deep (Job_11:8), insatiable (Isa_5:14; Son_8:6). "Hell," Hades, often means the "grave" (Job_14:13). In the Old Testament time, when as yet Christ had not "abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2Ti_1:10), death and the intermediate state represented by Hades suggested thoughts of gloom (as to Hezekiah, Isa_38:9-20), lit up however with gleams of sure hope from God's promises of the resurrection (Psa_16:10-11; Psa_17:15; Isa_26:19; Hos_13:14; Dan_12:2). Hints too occur of the spirit's being with God in peace in the intermediate state (Ecc_3:21; Ecc_12:7; Psa_23:6; Psa_139:8; Isa_57:2).

The passages which represent Hades and the grave as a place where God can no longer be praised mean simply that the physical powers are all suspended, so that God's peruses can be no longer set forth on earth among the living. The anomalous state in which man is unclothed of the body is repulsive to the mind, and had not yet the clear gospel light to make it attractive as Paul viewed it (Phi_1:21-23; 2Co_5:6-8). To the bad Hades was depicted as a place of punishment, where God's wrath reached to the depths (Deu_32:22; Amo_9:2; Psa_9:17; Psa_49:14; Isaiah 14). Thus, the unseen state even in Old Testament was regarded as having a distinction between the godly and the ungodly; Pro_14:32, "the wicked is driven away in his wickedness, but the righteous hath hope in his death"; so Psalm 1.

This is further confirmed by the separation of the rich man and Lazarus, the former in "hell" (Hades), the latter in "Abraham's bosom" (Luk_16:23), and in the penitent thief's soul going to be with Jesus in "paradise," the word implying the recovery in heavenly bliss of the paradise lost by Adam (Luk_23:43). "Tartarus," the pagan Greek term for the place of enchainment of the Titans, rebels against God, occurs in 2Pe_2:4 of the lost angels; the "deep," or "abyss," or "bottomless pit," (abussos) Luk_8:31; Rev_9:11. The firm faith and hope of an abiding heavenly city is unequivocally attributed to the patriarchs (Heb_11:16-35);. so all the believing Israelites (Act_26:7; Act_23:6-9). Hades, "hell," is used for destruction (Mat_11:23; Mat_16:18). Jesus has its keys, and will at last consign it to the lake of fire which is the second death; implying that Christ and His people shall never again be disembodied spirits.

Rev_1:18; Rev_20:13-14; I can release at will from the unseen world of spirits, the anomalous state wherein the soul is severed from the body. The "spirits in prison" (1Pe_3:19) mean the ungodly antediluvians shut up in this earth, one vast prison, and under sentence of death and awaiting execution (Isa_24:22); not the prison of Hades. (See SPIRITS IN PRISON.) It is solemnly significant of the certainty of hell that He who is Love itself has most plainly and fully warned men of it, that they may flee from it. Tophet, the scene of human immolations by fire to Moloch amidst sounds of drums (tof) to drown the cries of the victims, symbolized the funeral pyre of Sennacherib's Assyrian army, and finally the lake of fire that shall burn for ever the lost (Isa_30:33). (See TOPHET.)

In an Assyrian tablet of the goddess Ishtar, daughter of Sin, the moon goddess, Hades is described as having seven gates," the house of the departed, the house from within which is no exit, the road the course of which never returns, the place within which they long for light, where dust is their nourishment and their food mud, light is never seen, in darkness they dwell, spirits like birds fill its vaults, over the door and its bolts is scattered dust!" What a contrast to the gospel (2Ti_1:10).

The preceeding text is from Faussets Bible Dictionary

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]With all due respect, the defitions for the word hell depends on your source.

IMHO here is the most accurate text I have saw related to hell as it is used in the KJV.

For those of you who do not want to read long cut and paste, make sure to take a look at the part denoted in red as many people seem to be unaware of the way the word hell has evolved throughout history
Hell[/SIZE]

Absolutely unbelieveable. With all due respect my foot! Ignore all the evidence that has been posted, search until you find something that says what you have already made up your mind to believe. I posted ECF, Jewish Encyclopedia, Talmud, TDNT, BAGD, BDB, TWOT, Strong's, and Thayer, but none of that means anything. You found your one source that, "is the most accurate text [you] have saw related to hell as it is used in the KJV."

You have just set yourself up as the final authority on "hell" and just find something, anything, that agrees with you.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Absolutely unbelieveable. With all due respect my foot! Ignore all the evidence that has been posted, search until you find something that says what you have already made up your mind to believe. I posted ECF, Jewish Encyclopedia, Talmud, TDNT, BAGD, BDB, TWOT, Strong's, and Thayer, but none of that means anything. You found your one source that, "is the most accurate text [you] have saw related to hell as it is used in the KJV."

You have just set yourself up as the final authority on "hell" and just find something, anything, that agrees with you.

Why all the hostility?

I have many of the soruces you mentioned and I am not setting myself up as final authority on anything, I clearly stated that it was my humble opinion that this is the most accurate text I have saw related to hell as it is used in the KJV.

Am I not entitled to an opinion that may be different from yours?

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Why all the hostility?

I have many of the soruces you mentioned and I am not setting myself up as final authority on anything, I clearly stated that it was my humble opinion that this is the most accurate text I have saw related to hell as it is used in the KJV.

Am I not entitled to an opinion that may be different from yours?[/SIZE]

Not hostile, just pointing out pertinent fact.

You appear to consider yourself and your opinion the final authority, you blew off all the sources I cited, because, in your opinion, Faussett was the only correct one. This must be based on assumptions and presuppositions. Now if you have studied for years and have some degrees in Biblical languages, history, etc. then your opinion might be meaningful. Otherwise, your conclusion is just based on your assumptions and presuppositions.

Yes, you are entitled to an opinion, that is different than mine, and if you post it in an open discussion forum, as you did, I am entitled to point out to you, and others, that is what it is, "an opinion," not a conclusion based on evidence. Some of my evidence.

Strong’s & Thayer on “Hades”.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16804956&postcount=391

ECF, early church understanding of Hell, universalism, and annihilationism.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16804621&postcount=389

Thayer, “aionios”

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16742106&postcount=361

Strong’s, BDB, and Talmud on “sheol”

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16742139&postcount=362

Jewish Encyclopedia on “sheol” and “hades.”

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16742207&postcount=363

Jesus on universalism.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16572713&postcount=226

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16680754&postcount=322

Jewish figures of speech, Strong’s, BDB, and TWOT on “olam,, and “ad”

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16717959&postcount=349

LSJ, BAGD, TDNT on “aionios and “aion”

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16680754&postcount=322

 

[Soul Searcher]

I did not say Fausset was the only correct one.
In the post I was commenting of the way the word hell is used, not sheol, not hades, not gehenna.

Again I clearly pointed out that it was my opinion.

 

[Dottie]

Didn't overlook anything. Christ IS

greater than Adam. Adam didn't raise the dead, heal the sick,etc. but that is irrelevant. You are not greater than Adam, I'm not, the guy down the street is not. So none of us are automatically "in" Christ. Remember what Christ said, "Whosoever believes IN me, shall not perish, but have everlasting life?" But He did not stop there He also said, "he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed IN the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Also Jesus is the standard, not the apostolic writing. If the apostolic writings appear to conflict with the words of Jesus, we ALWAYS resolve them to agree with Jesus. We do not ignore or reinterpret the words of Jesus to agree with our interpretation of one or two out-of-context verses from the apostles.

Jesus did not say that the condemnation (judgement) was eternal torment for those who did not believe. But He said that the condemnation or judgement was that light had come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (verse 19)

And I know of no apostolic writings that appear to conflict with those words of Jesus.

 

[Rfiord]

? I always thought Hades was a pagan idol thingy/ another name for The Deciever, lol looks like im rather confused.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Jesus did not say that the condemnation (judgement) was eternal torment for those who did not believe. But He said that the condemnation or judgement was that light had come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (verse 19)

And I know of no apostolic writings that appear to conflict with those words of Jesus.[/SIZE]

And you might be correct if Jesus never said another word on the subject, but I know, and assume you do, that Jesus did in fact say more, on more than one ocassion. See links below. My discussions largely ignored. The fact remains that a person is NOT automatically IN Jesus and saved. And there is not one single verse in the four gospels where Jesus states or implies that all of mankind will ultimately be saved, or that the unrighteous will be annihilated.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16572713&postcount=226

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16680754&postcount=322