the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues

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Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

NIV Mar 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell [Gehenna], where the fire never goes out.
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
48 where, “their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” (Isa 66:24)​

Some groups teach that Gehenna is only the grave, dead is dead, the dead know nothing, experience nothing, the righteous are resurrected to eternal life, while the unrighteous are destroyed, i.e. Annihilationism. Other groups teach that the unrighteous are punished either, not at all or, for an indeterminate period of time, then released from the torment, and accepted into the kingdom of God, i.e. Universalism.

I believe that both views are false and unbiblical. If Gehenna is only the grave, how or why would there be fires in the grave that are never extinguished, and why would that concern the unknowing dead? If the unrighteous are destroyed at death, what difference would it make whether they had two, one, or no hands, feet, or eyes? How would cutting off one’s own feet, hands, or plucking out their own eyes, to avoid sinning, prevent anyone from dying and being buried in the grave?

Jesus said, “their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched” Not just any old worm, but “their worm.” If the unrighteous are rescued from punishment, after some period of time, the worm would no longer be “their worm.” People in paradise will certainly not be worrying about worms, in Gehenna, that never die.

This is also true for the fire that is never extinguished. This fire would be absolutely no concern of those rescued from it. People in an absolute state of joy and contentment would not even be thinking about worms that never die or fire that is never quenched, in some other place.

Therefore Jesus’ warning was not about the biology of worms or the physics of fire in Gehenna but a warning that sin, in this life, will bring people to a place where they would be eternally concerned about, “their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”

This is clearly supported by Jesus’ other statements on the condition of the unrighteous, after death, as well as other N.T. passages, e.g. Rev 14:11. Note, Jesus said, “Not every one shall enter into the kingdom of heaven,” “shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus never stated or implied that the unrighteous will, at some point in the future, ever be allowed to enter the kingdom.

Mat 7:21 [size=+1]Not[/size] every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall [size=+1]not[/size] enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I [size=+1]never[/size] knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [[size=+1]αιωνιος[/size]] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal [[size=+1]αιωνιος[/size]] punishment, but the righteous to eternal [[size=+1]αιωνιος[/size]] life."​

We know that the [size=+1]αιωνιος[/size] fire is eternal, never ending, because it is never quenched. Matt 18:8, Mar 9:43-48. And we know that the [size=+1]αιωνιος[/size] punishment, is eternal, never ending, because, “the smoke of their torment goes up [size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size]/unto the aeons of aeons: and they have no rest day nor night, Rev 14:11. On into the eternity of eternities, 10,000 eons, times 10,000 eons, from now God’s eternal word will forever say, “they have no rest day nor night”

Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall [size=+1]not[/size] enter therein.

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall [size=+1]not[/size] be able.

Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you [size=+1]not[/size] whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he [size=+1]cannot[/size] enter into the kingdom of God.

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.​

This story is not a parable, because it lacks a parabolic introduction, e.g. “The kingdom of heaven/God is like. . . “ Also unlike any of the genuine parables it names specific people, including one known historical person, Abraham, the father of the Jewish nation.

This is not a parable because all genuine parables use known, every day, things, and circumstances, that Jesus’ audience was familiar with and understood, to illustrate spiritual truth, e.g. lost coins, lost sheep, unprepared wedding guests, absent land owners, abusive tenants, a prodigal son, a sower and seed, etc. Except for vs. 21, there is nothing in the experience of His audience or later generations, which is known or familiar.

Nobody who ever lived knew what it was like to die and experience the afterlife. A parable cannot use one unknown thing or circumstance to illustrate another unknown thing or circumstance.

If His audience did not immediately understand the point of a parable Jesus always explained or clarified them. Jesus did not explain the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Jesus would never have left a parable unexplained for almost two millennia, to be “interpreted,” by every self proclaimed guru or messiah, in the world, with explanations ranging from seemingly plausible to the absolutely absurd.

And perhaps the major reason this story is not a parable is because Jesus states that Abraham, a specific historical person, had a specific conversation with another person, and made certain statements. If Abraham did not have that conversation and make those statements, then Jesus was a liar.

It is one thing to say a certain, unnamed, person, did or said certain things. People, in general, lose money, lose sheep, landowners are absent, tenants are abusive, sons go astray, and squander their father’s money, etc. But it is another thing entirely to say that a known, specific, historical, person had a conversation, with a specific individual, and made certain statements, if that never happened.

The place, Hades or hell, and condition, torment was immediate, at death. The rich man had eyes, he could see, and speak.

Luk 13:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.​

The rich man had a tongue, he knew that Lazarus had a finger, and realized he was being tormented in flames.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.​

The awareness of those in Hades, is immediate, it is permanent, and irrevocable. Those who are comforted in the afterlife cannot pass to Hades, and those in Hades cannot pass to the other side.

Even if the story is a parable it has a message. What is the message of the rich man and Lazarus? Simply put, life, death, and irreversible condition/circumstances after death.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever [[size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size]]: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

I have posted the definition of [size=+1]αιων[/size] and [size=+1]αιωνιος[/size] several times, from several sources, including LSJ Classical Greek Lexicon, TDNT, BAGD, and Strong’s. All the sources agree that both words have always included the meaning forever, eternal, never ending, etc.

But those with unorthodox beliefs do not want to accept that evidence and will search until they find someone, anyone, who will give them the definition they want to hear.

Universalists/Annihilationists argue, If “aeon” means forever, eternal, never ending, why is it repeated, as in Rev 14:11, [size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size]/unto the aeons of aeons? “Oh me oh my, how can you have more than one eternity?”

As I have said before, on more than one occasion, [size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size]/unto the aeons of aeons is an example of a Hebrew figure of speech, where a word is reduplicated for emphasis. I have given examples before but the U/As are not interested in scripture that contradict them. In addition to the resources I cited before, LSJ, TDNT, BAGD, Robertson, and Strong’s here is the Thayer’s definition of [size=+1]αιωνιος[/size]. Without one exception all these recognized Greek language resources show that [size=+1]αιωνιος[/size] has inherent in its definition the meaning forever, eternal, never ending.

G166 [size=+1]αιωνιος[/size] aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G165
Citing in TDNT: 1:208, 31​

 

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Strong's H7585 [size=+1]שׁאול[/size] [size=+1]שׁאל[/size] she'ôl she'ôl sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

Brown-Driver Briggs -H7585 [size=+1]שׁאל[/size] [size=+1]שׁאול[/size] she'ol
BDB Definition:
1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
1a) the underworld
1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1b1) place of no return
1b2) without praise of God
1b3) wicked sent there for punishment
1b4) righteous not abandoned to it
1b5) of the place of exile (figuratively)
1b6) of extreme degradation in sin
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H7592
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2303c
* * *
Derivative TWOT Number: 2303c
Derivative Transliteration: she'ol
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference: 7585
Derivative Definition: sheol, grave, hell, pit.

she 'ol. The grave, hell, pit. The KJV use "grave" thirty-one times, "hell" thirty times, "Pit" three times. The ASV and RSV translate as "Sheol." NIV uses "grave" with a footnote "Sheol." The etymology is uncertain. The word does not occur outside of the OT, except once in the Jewish Elephantine papyri, where it means "grave" (A. Cowley, Aramaic Papyri of the Fifth Century B. C. , Oxford , 1923, no. 71:15). The word obviously refers in some way to the place of the dead.
* * *
One problem with she"ol is that both good men (Jacob, Gen 37:35) and bad men (Korah, Dathan, etc., Num 16:30) go there. This led the early church to hold that the OT saints went to a limbus patrum, a kind of upper level of Sheol from which Christ delivered them at his resurrection (1Pe 3:19; Eph 4:9-10). The NT verses are highly problematical. The first one likely refers only to Noah's preaching by the Spirit of Christ; the second refers to Christ's descent from heaven and return there.

Rather than a two-compartment theory, it is easier to hold to a double meaning of she'ol. It can be held that originally the word meant just "the grave" and became specialized for "hell." This is the viewpoint of the KJV. "Hell" is more in point in the later passages than in the Pentateuch. Still Num 16:30, Num 16:33 and Deu 32:22 are "hell" in the KJV.

A common view today is that she'ol is a name for the underworld (Dahood and many). One problem with this is the theological one. Does the OT teach, in contradiction to the NT, that all men after death go to a dark and dismal place where the dead know nothing and are cut off from God? In Mesopotamian sources all people go to the underworld, live in darkness and sorrow, eat clay and are plagued in various ways. There is no fiery torture. If the NT teaches otherwise (Luk 23:43), can such a view of the OT be held?

A third view is that she 'ol does not describe the place where the souls of men go, but the place where their bodies go, the grave. Where their souls go is learned from other Scriptures (Exo 3:6; Mat 22:32). This view is attractive. It avoids the rather artificial two-compartment theory on the one hand and the theologically questionable theory of an undifferentiated underworld or place of departed spirits on the other hand, where all men go into dismal darkness and shadowy existence. It does not favor soul sleep or annihilation of the wicked, for it speaks only of the destination of bodies. The condition of the souls of men until the resurrection is not in view. The question is, can the passages be fairly interpreted as "grave?"

Space forbids detailed treatment, but a good number of verses can be collected where the meaning "grave" seems to be demanded. The four in Gen all refer to Jacob being brought down in sorrow to the grave. The references to Joab and Shimei in 1Ki 2:6, 1Ki 2:9 are similar. All but eight of the passages concerned are poetic, and it may be that she'ol is just a poetic synonym for qeber which is used seventy-one times for "grave" (and the verb qabar is used all 132 times for "bury").
* * *
. . .All the souls of men do not go to one place. But all people go to the grave. As to the destiny of the souls of men in the intermediate state, the OT says little. Actually the NT says little too, but what it says is decisive. . . The saved go to heaven and bliss; the wicked go to hell and torment. In the OT the hope of the righteous is life with God, the wicked have not this hope. Cf. Dahood's interpretation of Psa 23:6; Psa 17:15 and others (Psalms, AB, in loc.), also Pro 23:18; Pro 24:14, Pro 24:20 (M. Dahood, Proverbs and Northwest Semitic Philology, Pontifical Biblical Institute, 1%3, pp. 48, 51). Numbers of other verses speak of eventual resurrected life in a new heavens and a new earth, but that must be a further study.

Bibliography: Buis, H., "Sheol," in ZPEB, V, p. 395. Dahood, M., Psalms, in AB, vol. III, pp. xli-1ii. David, John D., "The Future Life in Hebrew Thought During the Pre-Persian Period," PTR 5:631-41. Gordis, Roben, "Studies in Hebrew Roots of Contrasted Meanings," JQR 27:33-58. Harzis, R. L., "The Meaning of the Word Sheol as shown by Parallels in Poetic Passages," JETS 4:129-35. Heidel, A., "Death and the Afterlife" chap. III in The Gilgamesh Epic, University of Chicago, 1946, pp. 137-223. Hooke, S. H., "Life after Death: V. Israel and the After-Life," Exp T 76:236-39. Sutcllife , E. F., The OT and the Future Life, 1947. TDNT, I, pp. 146-48. THAT, II, pp. 841-43. R.L.H.

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate ‘Abodah Zarah Folio 18a

He who pronounced the Name in its full spelling. But how could he do so? Have we not learnt: The following have no portion in the world to come: He who says that the Torah is not from Heaven, or that the resurrection of the dead is not taught in the Torah. Abba Saul says: Also he who pronounces the Name in its full spelling? — He did it in the course of practising, as we have learnt: Thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations, but thou mayest learn [about them] in order to understand and to teach.

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Baba Mezi'a Baba Mezi'a 58b

Abaye asked R. Dimi: What do people [most] carefully avoid in the West [sc. palestine]? — He replied: putting others to shame. For R. Hanina said: All descend into Gehenna, excepting three. 'All' — can you really think so! But say thus: All who descend into Gehenna [subsequently] reascend, excepting three, who descend but do not reascend, viz., He who commits adultery with a married woman, publicly shames his neighbour, or fastens an evil epithet [nickname] upon his neighbour. 'Fastens an epithet' — but that is putting to shame! — [It means], Even when he is accustomed to the name.

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin Folio 105a

Now only Balaam will not enter [the future world], but other [heathens] will enter.27 On whose authority is the Mishnah [taught]? — On R. Joshua's. For it has been taught: R. Eliezer said, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God:28 The wicked shall be turned into hell — this refers to transgressors among Israel; and all the nations that forget God — to transgressors among the heathen.29 This is R. Eliezer's view. But R. Joshua said to him: Is it stated, and [those] among all the nations?30 Surely all the nations that forget God is written! But [interpret thus:] The wicked shall be turned into hell, and who are they? — all the nations that forget God.31 Now, that wicked man [Balaam] too gave a sign for himself [that he would not enter the future world by saying, Let me die the death of the righteous32 — meaning, If I die the death of the righteous [i.e., a natural death], my last end will be like his;33 but if not [i.e., if I die a violent death], then behold I go unto my people.

 

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Jewish Encyclopedia –Eschatology –

The Day of the Lord.

Gen. xlix. 1; comp. Gen. R. xcviii., "the Messianic end" ; Isa. ii. 1; also "the end," Dent. xxxii. 20; Ps. lxxiii. 17; Ben Sira vii. 36, xxviii. 6; comp. "Didache," xvi. 3): The doctrine of the "last things." Jewish eschatology deals primarily and principally with the final destiny of the Jewish nation and the world in general, and only secondarily with the future of the individual; the main concern of Hebrew legislator, prophet, and apocalyptic writer being Israel as the people of God and the victory of His truth and justice on earth. The eschatological view, that is, the expectation of the greater things to come in the future, underlies the whole construction of the history of both Israel and mankind in the Bible. The patriarchal history ends with such prophecies (Gen. xii. 3, 16; xv. 14; xviii. 18; xxii. 18; xxvi. 4); the Mosaic legislation has this more or less explicitly in view the relation of Israel to the nations and the final victory of the former (Ex. xix.. 5; Lev. xxvi. 45; Num. xxiii. 10, xxiv. 17-24; Deut. iv. 6; vii. 6 et seq. ; xxviii. 1, 10; xxx. 3 et seq. ; xxxii. 43; xxxiii. 29). But it was chiefly the Prophets who dwelt with great emphasis upon the Day of the Lord as the future Day of Judgment. Originally spoken of as the day when Yhwh as the God of heaven visits the earth with all His terrible powers of devastation (comp. Gen. xix. 24; Ex. ix. 23, xi. 4, xii. 12; Josh. x. 11), the term was employed by the Prophets in an eschatological sense and invested with a double character: on the one hand, as the time of the manifestation of God's punitive powers of justice directed against all that provokes His wrath, and, on the other hand, as the time of the vindication and salvation of the righteous. In the popular mind the Day of the Lord brought disaster only to the enemies of Israel; to His people it brought victory. But this is contradicted by the prophet Amos (iii. 2, v. 20). For Isaiah, likewise, the Day of the Lord brings terror and ruin to Judah and Israel (Isa. ii. 12, x. 3, xxii. 5; comp. Micah i. 3) as well as to other nations (Isa. xiv. 25, xxiv.-xxv.). In the same measure, however, as Israel suffers defeat at the hand of the great world-powers, the Day of the Lord in the prophetic conception becomes a day of wrath for the heathen world and of triumph for Israel. In Zeph. i-iii. it is a universal day of doom for all idolaters, including the inhabitants of Judea, but it ends with the glory of the remnant of Israel, while the assembled heathen powers are annihilated (iii. 8-12). This feature of the final destruction, before the city of Jerusalem, of the heathen world-empires becomes prominent and typical in all later prophecies (Ezek. xxxviii., the defeat of Gog and Magog; Isa. xiii. 6-9, Babel's fall; Zech. xii. 2 et seq., xiv. 1 et seq.; Hag. i. 6; Joel iv. [iii.] 2 et seq.; Isa. lxvi. 15 et seq.), the Day of the Lord being said to come as "a fire which refines the silver" (Mal. iii. 2 et seq., 9; comp. Isa. xxxiii. 14 et seq.). Especially strong is the contrast between the fate which awaits the heathen and the salvation promised Israel in Isa. xxxiv.-xxxv., whereas other prophecies accentuate rather the final conversion of the heathen nations to the belief in the Lord (Isa. ii. 1 et seq., xlix. lxvi. 6-21, Zech. viii. 21 et seq., xiv. 16 et seq.).

Resurrection of the Dead.

In addition to this conception of the Day of the Lord, the Prophets developed the hope of an ideal Messianic future through the reign of a son of the house of David—the golden age of paradisiacal bliss, of which the traditions of all the ancient nations spoke (see Dillmann's commentary to Gen. ii-iii., p. 46). It would come in the form of a world of perfect peace and harmony among all creatures, the angelic state of man before his sin (Isa. xi. 1-10, lxv. 17-25: "new heavens and a new earth"). It was only a step further to predict the visitation of all the kingdoms of the earth, to be followed by the swallowing up of death forever and a resurrection of the dead in Israel, so that all the people of the Lord might witness the glorious salvation (Isa. xxiv. 21-xxv. 8, xxvi. 19). The hope of resurrection had been expressed by Ezekiel only with reference to the Jewish nation as such (Ezek. xxxvii.). Under Persian influence, however, the doctrine of resurrection underwent a change, and was made part of the Day of Judgment; hence in Dan. xii. 2 the resurrection is extended to both the wicked and the righteous: the latter "shall awake to everlasting life," the former "to shame and everlasting horror" (A. V. "contempt").

Resurrection formed part of the Messianic hope (Isa. xxiv. 19; Dan. xii. 2). Martyrs for the Law were specially expected to share in the future glory of Israel (II Macc. vii. 6, 9, 23; Book of Jubilees, xxiii. 30), the term for having a share in the future life being "to inherit the land" (Ḳid. i. 10). The Resurrection was therefore believed to take place solely in the Holy Land (Pesiḥ. R. 1; the "land of the living" in Ps. cxvi. 9 means "the land where the dead live again"). Jerusalem alone is the city whose dead will blossom forth as the grass, for those buried elsewhere will be compelled to creep through holes in the ground to the Holy Land (Ket. 3b; Pesiḥ. R. l.c.). From this point of view the Resurrection is accorded only to Israel (Gen. R. xiii.). The great trumpet blown to gather the tribes of Israel (Isa. xxvii. 13) will also rouse the dead (Ber. 15b; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xx. 15; II Esd. iv. 23 et seq.; I Cor. xv. 52; I Thess. iv. 16).

The Last Judgment precedes the Resurrection. Judged by the Messiah, the nations with their guardian angels and stars shall be cast into Gehenna. According to Rabbi Eleazar of Modi'im, in answer to the protests of the princes of the seventy-two nations, God will say, "Let each nation go through the fire together with its guardian deity," when Israel alone will be saved (Cant. R. ii. 1). This gave rise to the idea adopted by Christianity, that the Messiah would pass through Hades (Test. Patr., Benjamin, 9; Yalḳ., Isa. 359; see Eppstein, "Bereshit Rabbati," 1888, p. 31). The end of the judgment of the heathen is the establishment of the kingdom of God (Mek., Beshallaḥ, 'Amale&#7731. The Messiah will cast Satan into Gehenna, and death and sorrow flee forever (Pesiḥ. R. 36; see also Antichrist; Armilus; Belial).

In later times the belief in a universal Resurrection became general. "All men as they are born and die are to rise again," says Eliezer ben Ḳappar (Abotiv.). The Resurrection will occur at the close of the Messianic era (Enoch, xcviii. 10). Death will befall the Messiah after his four hundred years' reign, and all mankind and the world will lapse into primeval silence for seven days, after which the renewed earth will give forth its dead and God will judge the world and assign the evil-doers to the pit of hell and the righteous to paradise, which is on the opposite side (II Esd. vii. 26-36). All evildoers meet with everlasting punishment. It was a matter of dispute between the Shammaite R. Eliezer and the Hillelite R. Joshua whether the righteous among the heathen had a share in the future world or not (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 2), the dispute hinging on the verse "the wicked shall return to Sheol, and all the Gentiles that forget God" (Ps. ix. 18 [A. V. 17], Hebr.). The doctrine "All Israelites have a share in the world to come" (Sanh. xi. 1) is based upon Isa. Ix. 21: "Thy people, all of them righteous, shall inherit the land" (Hebr.). At first resurrection was regarded as a miraculous boon granted only to the righteous (Test. Patr., Simeon, 6; Luke xiv. 14), but afterward it was considered to be universal in application and connected with the Last Judgment (Slavonic Enoch, lxvi. 5; comp. second blessing of the "Shemoneh 'Esreh"). Whether the process of the formation of the body at the Resurrection is the same as at birth is a matter of dispute between the Hillelites and Shammaites (Gen. R. xiv.; Lev. R. xiv.). For the state of the soul during the death of the body see Immortality and Soul.

The Last Judgment.

The Messianic kingdom, being at best of mere earthly splendor, could not form the end, and so the Great Judgment was placed at its close and following the Resurrection. Those that would not accept the belief in bodily resurrection probably dwelt with greater emphasis on the judgment of the souls after death (see Abraham, Testament of; Philo; Sadducees; Wisdom, Book of). Jewish eschatology combined the Resurrection with the Last Judgment: "God summons the soul from heaven and couples it again on earth with the body to bring man to judgment" (Sanh. 91b, after Ps. l. 4). In the tenth week, that is, the seventh millennium, in the seventh part, that is, after the Messianic reign, there will be the great eternal judgment, to be followed by a new heaven with the celestial powers in sevenfold splendor (Enoch, xci. 15; comp. lxxxiv. 4, xciv. 9, xcviii. 10, civ. 5). On "the day of the Great Judgment" angels and men alike will be judged, and the books opened in which the deeds of men are recorded (lxxxi. 4, lxxxix. 70 et seq., xc. 20, ciii. 3 et seq., civ. 1, cviii. 3) for life or for death; books in which all sins are written down, and the treasures of righteousness for the righteous, will be opened on that day (Syriac Apoc. Baruch, xxiv. 1). "All the secret thoughts of men will then be brought to light." "Not long-suffering and mercy, but rigid justice, will prevail in this Last Judgment"; Gehenna and Paradise will appear opposite each other for the one or the other to enter (II Esd. vii. 33 et seq.).

This end will come "through no one but God alone" (ib. vi. 6). "No longer will time be granted for repentance, or for prayer and intercession by saints and prophets, but the Only One will give decision according to His One Law, whether for life or for everlasting destruction" (Syriac Apoc. Baruch, lxxxv. 9-12). The righteous ones will be recorded in the Book of Life (Book of Jubilees, xxx. 22, xxxvi. 10; Abot ii. 1; "Shepherd of Hermas," i. 32; Luke x. 20; Rev. iii. 5, xiii. 8, xx. 15). The righteous deeds and the sins will be weighed against each other in the scales of justice (Pesiḥ. R. 20; Ḳid. 40b). According to the Testament of Abraham (A. xiii.), there are two angels, one on either side: one writes down the merits, the other the demerits, while Doḳiel, the archangel, weighs the two kinds against each other in a balance; and another, Pyroel ("angel of fire"), tries the works of men by fire, whether they are consumed or not; then the just souls are carried among the saved ones; "those found unjust, among those who will meet their punishment. Those whose merits and demerits are equal remain in a middle state, and the intercession of meritorious men such as Abraham saves them and brings them into paradise (Testament of Abraham, A. xiv.). According to the sterner doctrine of the Shammaites, these souls must undergo a process of purgation by fire; "they enter Gehenna, swing themselves up again, and are healed." This view, based upon Zech. xiii. 9, seems to be something like the Christian purgatory. According to the Hillelites, "He who is plenteous in mercy inclines the scale of justice toward mercy"—a view which shows (against Gunkel, "Der Prophet Ezra," 1900, p. 15) that Judaism believed in divine mercy independently of the Pauline faith (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3). As recorder of the deeds of men in the heavenly books, "Enoch, the scribe of righteousness," is mentioned in Testament of Abraham, xi.; Lev. R. xiv. has Elijah and the Messiah as heavenly recorders, a survival of the national Jewish eschatology.

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THE WORD "SHEOL," OR THE OLD TESTAMENT DOCTRINE OF HELL.​

By Thomas B. Thayer


​

The word Hell, in the Old Testament, is always a translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, which occurs sixty-four times, and is rendered "hell" thirty-two times, "grave" twenty-nine times, and "pit" three times.​

1. By examination of the Hebrew Scriptures it will be found that its radical or primary meaning is, The place or state of the dead.

The following are examples: "Ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave." Gen. xvii 38. "I will go down to the grave to my son mourning." xxxviii 35. "O that thou wouldst hide me in the grave!" Job xiV 13. "My life draweth nigh to the grave." Ps. lxxxviiI 3. "In the grave who shall give thee thanks?" lxxxvi 5. "Our bones are scattered at the grave's mouth." cxlI 7. "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecc. ix. 10. "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold thou art there." Ps. cxxxix. 8. "Hell from beneath is moved to meet thee, at thy coming. It stirreth up the dead for thee," &c. Isaiah xiV 9-15.

These passages show the Hebrew usage of the word sheol, which is the original of the word "grave" and "hell" in all the examples cited. It is plain that it has here no reference to a place of endless torment after death. The patriarch would scarcely say, "I will go down to an endless hell to my son mourning." He did not believe his son was in any such place. Job would not very likely pray to God to hide him in a place of endless torment, in order to be delivered from his troubles.

If the reader will substitute the word "hell" in the place of "grave" in all these passages, he will be in the way of understanding the Scripture doctrine on this subject.

2. But there is also a figurative sense to the word sheol, which is frequently met with in the later Scriptures of the Old Testament. Used in this sense, it represents a state of degradation or calamity, arising from any cause, whether misfortune, sin, or the judgment of God.

This is an easy and natural transition. The state or the place of the dead was regarded as solemn and gloomy, and thence the word sheol, the name of this place, came to be applied to any gloomy, or miserable state or condition. The following passages are examples: "The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me." Psalm xvii 4-6. This was a past event, and therefore the hell must have been this side of death. Solomon, speaking of a child, says, "Thou shalt beat him, and deliver his soul from hell;" that is, from the ruin and woe of disobedience. ProV xxiiI 14. The Lord says to Israel, in reference to their idolatries, "Thou didst debase thyself even unto hell." Isaiah lvii 9. This, of course, signifies a state of utter moral degradation and wickedness, since the Jewish nation as such certainly never went down into a hell of ceaseless woe. Jonah says, "Out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardst me." ii 2. Here we see the absurdity of supposing sheol or hell to mean a place of punishment after death. The hell in this case was the belly of the whale; or rather the wretched and suffering condition in which the disobedient prophet found himself. "The pains of hell got hold on me: I found trouble and sorrow." Ps. cxvi 3. Yet David was a living man, all this while, here on the earth. So he exclaims again, "Great is thy mercy towards me. Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell." Ps. lxxxvi 13. Now here the Psalmist was in the lowest hell, and was delivered from it, while he was yet in the body, before death. Of course the hell here cannot be a place of endless punishment after death.

These passages sufficiently illustrate the figurative usage of the word sheol, "hell." They show plainly that it was employed by the Jews as a symbol or figure of extreme degradation or suffering, without reference to the cause. And it is to this condition the Psalmist refers when he says, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." Ps. ix. 17. Though Dr. Allen, President of Bowdoin College, thinks "the punishment expressed here is cutting off from life, destroying from earth by some special judgment, and removing to the invisible place of the dead" (sheol).

It is plain, then, from these citations, that the word sheol, "hell," makes nothing for the doctrine of future unending punishment as a part of the Law penalties. It is never used by Moses or the Prophets in the sense of a place of torment after death; and in no way conflicts with the statement already proved, that the Law of Moses deals wholly in temporal rewards and punishments.

This position, also, I wish to fortify by the testimony of Orthodox critics, men of learning and candor. They know, and therefore they speak.

1. CHAPMAN. "Sheol, in itself considered, has no connection with future punishment." Cited by Balfour, First Inquiry.

2. DR. ALLEN, quoted above, says: "The term sheol does not seem to mean, with certainty, anything more than the state of the dead in their deep abode."

3. DR. CAMPBELL. "Sheol signifies the state of the dead without regard to their happiness or misery."

4. DR. WHITBY. "Sheol throughout the Old Testament signifies not the place of punishment, or of the souls of bad men only, but the grave only, or the place of death."

5. DR. MUENSCHER. This distinguished author of a Dogmatic History in German, says: "The souls or shades of the dead wander in sheol, the realm or kingdom of death, an abode deep under the earth. Thither go all men, without distinction, and hope for no return. There ceases all pain and anguish; there reigns an unbroken silence; there all is powerless and still; and even the praise of God is heard no more."

6. VON COELLN. "Sheol itself is described as the house appointed for all living, which receives into its bosom all mankind, without distinction of rank, wealth, or moral character. It is only in the mode of death, and not in the condition after death, that the good are distinguished above the evil. The just, for instance, die in peace, and are gently borne away before the evil comes; while a bitter death breaks the wicked like as a tree."

These witnesses all testify that sheol, or hell, in the Old Testament, has no reference whatever to this doctrine; that it signifies simply the state of the dead, the invisible world, without regard to their goodness or badness, their happiness or misery. The Old Testament doctrine of hell, therefore, is not the doctrine of endless punishment. It is not revealed in the Law of Moses. It is not revealed in the Old Testament. To such result has our inquiry led us; and now what shall we say of it?

 

[john14_20]

On into the eternity of eternities, 10,000 eons, times 10,000 eons, from now God’s eternal word will forever say, “they have no rest day nor night”

And 10,000 eons, times 10,000 eons, from now God’s eternal word will also still be saying “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.” (1 Cor 15:22)

​

​

 

[drstevej]

And 10,000 eons, times 10,000 eons, from now God’s eternal word will also still be saying “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.” (1 Cor 15:22)

​

All in Adam [humanity] did die
All in Christ [the elect] will be made alive

 

[Soul Searcher]

Garbanzo beans! So according to you the Bible is corrupt? Jesus is quoted as saying things He did not say? As with most of the stuff being posted here in support of Universalism and Annihilationism, your post is false. 'Ades or Hades was not the name of a pagan god. Instead of just blindly parroting stuff you heard, at least have the honesty and integrity to check out what you say. Hades is listed in the dictionary.

Say what?
Surely you do not think Jesus spoke in English do you? Maybe he spoke in Greek? Some say yes, others say he spoke in Aramaic.

The Jews were very familiar with the word sheol used throughout the OT. I think it reasonable and logical to assume this is probably the word Jesus used rather than hades, and that hades was the Greek translation for sheol.

As for Hades not being a pagan god, haven't you ever read any mythology? Never reasearched the word hades.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
hades

n 1: (Greek mythology) the god of the underworld in ancient mythology; brother of Zeus and husband of Persephone [syn: Pluto, Hades, Aides, Aidoneus] 2: (religion) the world of the dead; "he didn't want to go to hell when he died" [syn: Hel, Hell, Hades, infernal region, netherworld, Scheol, underworld]

The following definition gives the meaning more as it is used in the bible

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
hades

that which is out of sight, a Greek word used to denote the state or place of
the dead. All the dead alike go into this place. To be buried, to go down to
the grave, to descend into hades, are equivalent expressions. In the LXX. this
word is the usual rendering of the Hebrew sheol, the common receptacle of the
departed (Gen. 42:38; Ps. 139:8; Hos. 13:14; Isa. 14:9). This term is of
comparatively rare occurrence in the Greek New Testament. Our Lord speaks of
Capernaum as being "brought down to hell" (hades), i.e., simply to the lowest
debasement, (Matt. 11:23). It is contemplated as a kind of kingdom which could
never overturn the foundation of Christ's kingdom (16:18), i.e., Christ's
church can never die. In Luke 16:23 it is most distinctly associated with the
doom and misery of the lost. In Acts 2:27-31 Peter quotes the LXX. version of
Ps. 16:8-11, plainly for the purpose of proving our Lord's resurrection from
the dead. David was left in the place of the dead, and his body saw corruption.
Not so with Christ. According to ancient prophecy (Ps. 30:3) he was recalled to
life.

 

[Soul Searcher]

This story is not a parable, because it lacks a parabolic introduction, e.g. “The kingdom of heaven/God is like. . . “ Also unlike any of the genuine parables it names specific people, including one known historical person, Abraham, the father of the Jewish nation.

 

[Dottie]

How many people in 16th century England knew what Sheol, Por, Gehenna, or 'Ades meant?

Not too many. And the surest way for a king to keep his subjects loyal and in submission, was to make sure they were kept in ignorance about such things



The English Parliament often clashed with King James I of England, the first Stuart king and the monarch who united the thrones of England and Scotland. James I believed strongly in the divine right of kings, as he declared in this speech before Parliament in 1609.



James I: "Kings Are Justly Called Gods"

March 21, 1609

The state of monarchy is the supremest thing upon earth; for kings are not only God's lieutenants upon earth, and sit upon God's throne, but even by God himself they are called Gods…

Kings are justly called Gods, for that they exercise a manner or resemblance of divine power upon earth. For if you will consider the attributes to God, you shall see how they agree in the person of a king. God hath power to create, or destroy, make or unmake at his pleasure, to give life or send death, to judge all, and to be judged nor accountable to none. To raise low things, and to make high things low at his pleasure, and to God are both soul and body due. And the like power have Kings: they make and unmake their subjects: they have power of raising, and casting down: of life and of death: judges over all their subjects, and in all causes, and yet accountable to none but God only. They have power to exalt low things, and abase high things, and make of their subjects like men at the chess. A pawn to take a bishop or a knight, and to cry up or down any of their subjects, as they do their money. And to the king is due both the affection of the soul, and the service of the body of his subjects…

A king governing in a settled kingdom, leaves to be a king, and degenerates into a tyrant as soon as he leaves off to rule according to his laws. In which case the king's conscience may speak unto him, as the poor widow said to Philip of Macedon; either govern according to your law, Aut ne Rex sis. And though no Christian man ought to allow rebellion of people against their prince, yet doth God never leave kings unpunished when they transgress these limits; for in that same psalm where God saith to kings, Vos dii estis, he immediately thereafter concludes, But ye shall die like men.

The higher we are placed, the greater shall our fall be. Ut casus sic dolor: the taller the trees be, the more in danger of the wind; and the tempest beats forest upon the highest mountains. Therefore all kings that are not tyrants, or perjured, will be glad to bound themselves within the limits of their laws; and they that persuade them the contrary, are vipers, and pests, both against them and the commonwealth. For it is a great difference between a king's government in a settled state, and what kings in their original power might do in Individuo vago. As for my part, I thank God, I have ever given good proof, that I never had intention to the contrary. And I am sure to go to my grave with that reputation and comfort, that never king was in all his time more careful to have his laws duly observed, and himself to govern thereafter, than I.

I conclude then this point touching the power of kings with this axiom of divinity, that as to dispute what God may do, is blasphemy, but quid vult Deus, that divines may lawfully, and do ordinarily dispute and discuss; for to dispute A posse ad esse is both against logic and divinity: so is it sedition in subjects to dispute what a king may do in the height of his power. But just kings will ever be willing to declare what they will do, if they will not incur the curse of God. I will not be content that my power be disputed upon, but I shall ever be willing to make the reason appear of all my doings, and rule my actions according to my laws.

From the Encarta Encyclopedia who used as their Source: The Penguin Book of Historic Speeches. MacArthur, Brian, ed. Penguin Books, 1996.

 

[Dottie]

All in Adam [humanity] did die
All in Christ [the elect] will be made alive

Ah the use of those glorious brackets! There is nothing quite like them for making the scripture conform to one's own belief.

 

[Dottie]

This story is not a parable, because it lacks a parabolic introduction, e.g. "The kingdom of heaven/God is like. . . " Also unlike any of the genuine parables it names specific people, including one known historical person, Abraham, the father of the Jewish nation.

You are correct. It does lack a parabolic introduction, e.g. "The kingdom of heaven/God is like. . . " . As a matter of fact it lacks any introduction at all! It is not connected with the Saviour's discourse which came before it, or what comes after it. And most dispairing of all, nowhere does it say that Jesus even said this.

The belief that when a Jew died he went to Abraham's bosom, is just that; an unfounded belief that the Jewish Rabbins had drummed up for themselves.

See what Josephus the Jewish Historian writes concerning Hades, for he being a confirmed Pharisee reflects this unscriptural belief in this excerpt from his "DISCOURSE TO THE GREEKS CONCERNING HADES" .



"Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, where the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this place the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allowed as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behaviour and manners.

In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, wherein we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honour to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men, as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.

For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hyms sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and here; with whom their is no place of toil, no burning heat, no peiercing cold, nor are any briers of the just, which they see, always smiles upon them, while they wait for the rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call the the bosom of Abraham.

But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand, by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the anels appointed over them to reproach them and to threaten them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still downwards, Now those angels that are set over these souls, drag them into the neighbourhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapour itself; but when they have a nearer view of this spectacle, as, of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, in effect punished thereby; and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them, cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it , pass over it."

 

[Pilgrim 33]

There are 15 verses in the Gospels that contains the Pagan word "hell".

1. What were the original words that Jesus spoke?

2. Why did the KJ translators choose, of all things, a Pagan word to replace the actual words Jesus spoke?

3. Why did the KJ translators not use the original words that Jesus spoke?

 

[Soul Searcher]

There are 15 verses in the Gospels that contains the Pagan word "hell".

1. What were the original words that Jesus spoke?

2. Why did the KJ translators choose, of all things, a Pagan word to replace the actual words Jesus spoke?

3. Why did the KJ translators not use the original words that Jesus spoke?

Have you looked at the text of the world english bible? It does not use the word hell anywhere. You can download it as a plugin to e-sword or you can search and compare online at www.unbound-bible.com

 

[Flynmonkie]

Ah the use of those glorious brackets! There is nothing quite like them for making the scripture conform to one's own belief.

Dottie I agree with DrSteveJ's post. Albeit, I am surly not as versed on "theology" however what I do know without a doubt. Men are dead without Christ. With Christ we are the elect. I am not sure where you misunderstand this?

There are 15 verses in the Gospels that contains the Pagan word "hell".

1. What were the original words that Jesus spoke?

2. Why did the KJ translators choose, of all things, a Pagan word to replace the actual words Jesus spoke?

3. Why did the KJ translators not use the original words that Jesus spoke?

Found some old notes on this. It occurs sixty-five times in the Hebrew of the Old Testament; and only by studying each passage by itself can the student hope to gather the Biblical usage of the word. Which version and where are the 15 in the gospels that you are specifically referring to?

The following are all the passages where the word "Sheol" occurs, with the rendering in each passage indicated thus:
1. = grave, 2. = pit, 3. = hell.
1. Genesis 37:35.
1. Genesis 42:38.
1 Genesis 44:29,31.
2. Numbers 16:30,33.
3. Deuteronomy 32:22.
1. 1Samuel 2:6.
3. 2Samuel 22:6.
1. 1Kings 2:6,9.
1. Job 7:9.
3. Job 11:8.
1. Job 14:13.
1. Job 17:13.
2. Job 17:16.
1. Job 21:13.
1. Job 24:19.
3. Job 26:6.
1. Psalm 6:5.
3. Psalm 9:17.
3. Psalm 16:10.
3. Psalm 18:5.
1. Psalm 30:3.
1. Psalm 31:17.
1. Psalm 49:14,14,15.
3. Psalm 55:15. (margin grave).
3. Psalm 86:13. (margin grave).
3. Psalm 88:3.
1. Psalm 89:48.
3. Psalm 116:3.
3. Psalm 139:8.
1. Psalm 141:7.
1. Proverbs 1:12.
3. Proverbs 5:5.
3. Proverbs 7:27.
3. Proverbs 9:18.
3. Proverbs 15:11,24.
3. Proverbs 23:14.
3. Proverbs 27:20.
1. Proverbs 30:16.
1. Ecclesiastes 9:10.
1. Song of Solomon 8:6.
3. Isaiah 5:14.
3. Isaiah 14:9 (margin grave).
1. Isaiah 14:11.
3. Isaiah 14:15.
3. Isaiah 28:15,18.
1. Isaiah 38:10.
1. Isaiah 38:18.
3. Isaiah 57:9.
1. Ezekiel 31:15.
3. Ezekiel 31:16,17.
3. Ezekiel 32:21,27.
1. Hosea 13:14,14.
3. Amos 9:2.
3. Jonah 2:2 (margin grave).
3. Habakkuk 2:5.
As meaning "THE grave," it is to be distinguished from keber, A grave, or burying-place (from kabar, to bury, first occurrence Genesis 23:4): and bõr, a pit, generally hewn in the rock, hence used of a cistern (Genesis 37:20) or a dugeon, and etc., when dry.

 

[Dottie]

Dottie I agree with DrSteveJ's post. Albeit, I am surly not as versed on "theology" however what I do know without a doubt. Men are dead without Christ. With Christ we are the elect. I am not sure where you misunderstand this?

Hi Flynmonkie.

I'm not sure why you think that I have misunderstood. Also I am not sure who you are referring to, when you say "elect". Are you Calvinistic in your belief concerning who the "elect" are?

I believe that without a doubt that all of mankind would have died, never to live again, without Christ . But I also believe that God re-created all of humanity through Jesus Christ when He was resurrected. Else what did He mean when He said, "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful." (Rev. 21:5)?

2Cor. 5:14. "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

1Cor. 15: 20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21. "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

2Cor. 5:15. "And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."



Col. 1: 19. "For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20. And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."

Thanks for your response.

May God bless you.

~ Dottie ~

 

[Flynmonkie]

Hi Flynmonkie.

I'm not sure why you think that I have misunderstood. Also I am not sure who you are referring to, when you say "elect". Are you Calvinistic in your belief concerning who the "elect" are?

I believe that without a doubt that all of mankind would have died, never to live again, without Christ . But I also believe that God re-created all of humanity through Jesus Christ when He was resurrected. Else what did He mean when He said, "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful." (Rev. 21:5)?

2Cor. 5:14. "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

1Cor. 15: 20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21. "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

2Cor. 5:15. "And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

No, I am not a Calvinist, nor do I adhere to the TULIP --- By any stretch of the imagination. Close though, but I tend to lean towards the Arm camp when it comes to choice our part of co-operation in the whole issue. Coming out of a life of no faith (belief) to a life with faith. There is an unmistakable in difference.

Yes, Christ died for all. All are given this gift. However, not all will believethis. The key is belief...IMHO. Upon saving belief we are all elect. (this is a biblical term for those whom have accepted and believe) Those whom do not believe...simply are not saved. We are dead without this belief in Christ. The verses you have just quoted....this is the context of those verses.

 

[john14_20]

All in Adam [humanity] did die
All in Christ [the elect] will be made alive

You are adding words into the text Dr Steve!

And you are changing the order of the words too.

Both of these change the meaning of the text to suit your pre-conceived theology.

The text says that in Adam, all died and then in Christ all are made alive.

It does not say, despite your best efforts, that all those who are in Adam died and all those who are in Christ (significantly less according to you) are made alive.

It simply does not say that and it cannot be made to say that.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

All in Adam [humanity] did die
All in Christ [the elect] will be made alive

grammar and semantics aside, I agree.

 

[Dottie]

Yes, Christ died for all. All are given this gift. However, not all will believethis. The key is belief...IMHO. Upon saving belief we are all elect. (this is a biblical term for those whom have accepted and believe) Those whom do not believe...simply are not saved. We are dead without this belief in Christ. The verses you have just quoted....this is the context of those verses.

Just a little food for thought . . . .
If we must believe in order to be saved, or made alive, how can we do that, seeing that we are dead? A dead individual can neither believe or not believe.

Blessings.
~ Dottie ~

 

[Dottie]

Yes, Christ died for all. All are given this gift. However, not all will believethis. The key is belief...IMHO. Upon saving belief we are all elect. (this is a biblical term for those whom have accepted and believe) Those whom do not believe...simply are not saved. We are dead without this belief in Christ. The verses you have just quoted....this is the context of those verses.

Just a little food for thought . . . .

If we must believe in order to be saved, or made alive, how can we do that, seeing that we are dead? A dead individual can neither believe or not believe.

Blessings.
~ Dottie ~