the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues

[drstevej]

This makes me wonder how much, [if any] of this has occured in translating the acient Greek and Hebrew into english.

Just as you have discussed the range of meaning for the word "gospel." There are lexicons that have describe the range of meaning of greek and Hebrew terms as used both in and outside the Bible.

Having had 4 years of greek and 3 years of Hebrew and having a reasonable knowledge of the analytical sources available I think it is far less a problem than you suggest!

For my dissertation I had to read thousands of pages of Elizabethan era English. With extended experience I gained a familiarity with the usage of terms in that era that no longer have the same connotation.

It takes effort, but it is doable.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Just as you have discussed the range of meaning for the word "gospel." There are lexicons that have describe the range of meaning of greek and Hebrew terms as used both in and outside the Bible.

Having had 4 years of greek and 3 years of Hebrew and having a reasonable knowledge of the analytical sources available I think it is far less a problem than you suggest!

For my dissertation I had to read thousands of pages of Elizabethan era English. With extended experience I gained a familiarity with the usage of terms in that era that no longer have the same connotation.

It takes effort, but it is doable.

Which of the original Greek texts, ie written by the authors themselves, are available and have you had the opportunity to review any of them?

 

[drstevej]

none of the originals are available.

yet thousands of manuscripts are available to reconstruct the original. no othe manuscript of comparable antiquity has 1/1000 of the manuscript evidence.

the care in copying manuscripts has been demonstrated in the Isaiah Scroll found at Qumran. It is 1000 years earlier than any full manuscript of that book. The comparison of Isa 53 (a critical chapter) shows only 17 letters variance and none critical to the understanding of the text.

Scribes were meticulous (from my lecture notes)...

The Scribe - The scribe was considered a professional person in antiquity. No printing presses existed, so people were trained to copy documents. The task was usually undertaken by a devout Jew. The Scribes believed they were dealing with the very Word of God and were therefore extremely careful in copying. They did not just hastily write things down. Samuel Davidson describes some of the disciplines of the Talmudists (scribes) in regard to the Scriptures.

"A synagogue roll must be written on the skins of clean animals, prepared for the particular use of the synagogue by a Jew. These must be fastened together with strings taken from clean animals. Every skin must contain a certain number of columns, equal throughout the entire codex. The length of each column must not extend over less than 48 or more than 60 lines; and the breadth must consist of thirty letters. The whole copy must be first-lined; and if three words be written without a line, it is worthless. The ink should be black, neither red, green, nor any other color, and be prepared according to a definite recipe. An authentic copy must be the examplar, from which the transcriber ought not in the least deviate. No word or letter, not even a yod, must be written from memory, the scribe not having looked at the codex before him …… Between every consonant the space of a hair or thread must intervene; between every new parashah, or section, the breadth of nine consonants; between every book, three lines. The fifth book of Moses must terminate exactly with a line; but the rest need not do so. Besides this, the copyist must sit in full Jewish dress, wash his whole body, not begin to write the name of God with a pen newly dipped in ink, and should a king address him while writing that name he must take no notice of him."

"The evidence for the New Testament writing is ever so much greater than for many writing of classical authors, the authenticity of which no one dreams of questioning... And if the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would be regarded as beyond all doubt."

 

[Soul Searcher]

Just as you have discussed the range of meaning for the word "gospel." There are lexicons that have describe the range of meaning of greek and Hebrew terms as used both in and outside the Bible.

Having had 4 years of greek and 3 years of Hebrew and having a reasonable knowledge of the analytical sources available I think it is far less a problem than you suggest!

I was not really suggesting that it was or is a big problem, just wondering how much of a problem it is. I do use the lexicons and when possible research word history, the metaphors are a little more difficult to find any info on though.

 

[drstevej]

I was not really suggesting that it was or is a big problem, just wondering how much of a problem it is. I do use the lexicons and when possible research word history, the metaphors are a little more difficult to find any info on though.

Here is an interesting source for classifications of figures of speech by EW Bullinger.

http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/bullinger/FiguresOfSpeech.html

 

[Flynmonkie]

Here is an interesting source for classifications of figures of speech by EW Bullinger.

http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/bullinger/FiguresOfSpeech.html

Thank you DrSteveJ! Do you read alot of Bullingers work?

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]If there is a sentience or if there is an awareness or if there is a sense of suffering or if there is a feeling of pain, then there is some form of life;

and if this state is ad finitum, without end, then, regardless of whatever you want to call it, it is some form of eternal torment.[/SIZE]

That is what I said "eternal torment," just like Jesus said. There is a state of consciousness, awareness, sentience but that state is not the same as the "eternal zoe" promised to the righteous.

Why would Jesus warn His followers about worms that never died and fire in hell that was never quenched, if it was not a danger to them? If dead is dead, and the unrighteous are destroyed, why would it matter if they had two, one, or no feet, hands, or eyes? How would the number of eyes, hands, or feet keep someone from dying?

God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and He can do exactly as He has said in his word despite all the out-of-context proof texting by every Universalist/annihilationist that ever lived.

[SIZE=-1]If, on the other hand, there is no sentience or if there is no awareness or if there is no sense of suffering or if there is no feeling of pain then it is irrelevent whether this state continues on ad infinitum and without end or not

for if there is no awareness it is moot as to where they are or what kind of environment they are in as since any form of punishment inflicted on someone totally oblivious to their surroundings makes as much sense as torturing a concrete block for all eternity.[/SIZE]

If God can resurrect the bodies of the righteous who have died over the last few thousand years, whose bodies have long since turned to dust and that dust scattered over the world, in the oceans, etc., in some cases even destroyed by fire. E.g., how many hundreds of victims in the WTC attack who have never been identified and no parts of them ever found? And according to you the memories have been destroyed, yet you would have those same righteous in heaven being angry with God because their loved ones are not there.

Yet, again according to you, this same God is not capable of resurrecting the unrighteous, restoring their memories, and giving them some kind of conscious awareness?

I have posted several scriptures for discussion, all I have seen in response is a bunch of spam, which addressed nothing.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Why is it for 5,000+ years God told no one about a place called "Hell" (and eternal torment), then suddenly there were prolific references to, of all things, an ancient pagan belief, all contained within a "modern day" middle English word found all throughout the just finished KJV?[/SIZE]

Garbanzo Beans! I have answered, with scripture from both testaments, in this thread. The above statement is a deliberate false statement, there is not a shred of truth in it. It is spitting on God, and His Bible.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16572713&postcount=226

Whether you say sheol, Gehenna, or hades. There is scripture which you are afraid to read and answer which proves it is a place of everlasting, unending, punishment. The Bible states it and the early church believed it. I posted writings of Polycarp, a disciple of John, and Irenaeus a disciple of Polycarp. In response to scripture and historical church evidence you post, "If hell is real. . ." seventeen times, without citing one piece of scriptural or historical evidence.

You are not interested in anything but cramming your cut/paste arguments down everone's throat, while ignoring everything which contradicts you.

 

[Der Alte]

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation [[size=+1]ישׁועתי[/size]/Yeshuah] shall be for ever [[size=+1]עולם[/size]/olam], and my righteousness shall not be abolished. [[size=+1]לא תחת[/size]/lo châthath]​

A clear distinction between the final condition of the righteous and the unrighteous. The unrighteous will vanish away like smoke and grow old as a garment. But the salvation of the righteous is for ever, we know that means eternal, never ending, because the parallel, "God's righteousness shall not be abolished.”

Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting [[size=+1]עולמים[/size]/olamim"(plural)] salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. [[size=+1]עד־עולמי עד[/size]/"ad-olami-ad," forever-eternity-forever.​

One of the figures of speech used by the Jewish writers, of the Old Testament, was to reduplicate certain words, for emphasis, such as “King of kings, Lord of lords,” etc. This verse uses both Hebrew words for, “for ever,” “olam” and “ad.” And the word “ad” is reduplicated, "ad-olami-ad/forever-eternity-forever” or “eternity-forever-eternity.”

Also in this verse Hebrew parallelism, one thought expressed in two different ways, “everlasting salvation” and the parallel, “shall not be ashamed nor confounded forever-eternity-forever.”

Several examples of reduplication of words for emphasis.

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

“Lord of lords,” Deu 10:17; Psa 136:3
God of gods, Deu 10:17; Jos 22:22; Psa 136:2; Dan 2:47; Dan 11:36.
King of kings, Ezr 7:12; Dan 11:36.
Amen, Amen, Num 5:23; Neh 8:6.
Amen and Amen, Ps 41:13, 72:19, 89:52.​

Definitions, Brown-Driver-Briggs, Hebrew Lexicon (BDB), Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT), and Strong’s

Strong's - H5769 [size=+1]עולם[/size] [size=+1]עלם[/size] ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm o-lawm', o-lawm'

From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always[/color] (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon (BDB) - H5769 [size=+1]עלם[/size] / [size=+1]עולם[/size] ‛ôlâm

BDB Definition:
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5956
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1631a

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) - 1631 - [size=+1]עלם[/size] / [size=+1]עולם[/size] 'Lm

Hebrew Word: 'Lm
Strong's Cross Reference: None
Definition: III. Assumed root of the following.
Derivative TWOT Number: 1631a
Derivative Transliteration: 'olam
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference: 5769, 5865
Derivative Definition: forever, ever, everlasting evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world, etc. (RSV Similar in general, but substitutes always for in the world in Psa 73:12 and eternity for world in Ecc 3:11.) Probably derived from 'alam1, to hide, thus pointing to what is hidden in the distant future or in the distant past. The Ugaritic cognateis 'lm, eternity.

Though 'olam is used more than three hundred times to indicate indefinite continuance into the very distant future, the meaning of the word is not confined to the future. There are at least twenty instances where it clearly refers to the past. Such usages generally point to something that seems long ago, but rarely if ever refer to a limitless past, Thus in Deu 32:7 and Job 22:15 it may refer to the time of one's elders. In Pro 22:28; Pro 23:10; Jer 6:16; Jer 18:15; Jer 28:8 it points back somewhat farther. In Isa 58:12; Isa 61:4; Mic 7:14; Mal 3:4, and in the Aramaic of Ezr 4:15, Ezr 4:19 it clearly refers to the time just before the exile. In 1Sa 27:8, in Isa 51:9 and Isa 63:9, Isa 63:11 and perhaps Eze 36:2, it refers to the events of the exodus from Egypt. In Gen 6:4 it points to the time shortly before the flood. None of these past references has in it the idea of endlessness or limitlessness, but each points to a time long before the immediate knowledge of those living. In Isa 64:3 the KJV translates the word "beginning of the world." In Psa 73:12 and Ecc 3:11 it is translated "world, " suggesting the beginning of a usage that developed greatly in post biblical times.

Jenni holds that its basic meaning "most distant times" can refer to either the remote past or to the future or to both as due to the fact that it does not occur independently (as a subject or as an object) but only in connection with prepositions indicating direction (min "since, " 'ad "until, " 1, "up to") or as an adverbial accusative of direction or finally as the modifying genitive in the construct relationship. In the latter instance 'olam can express by itself the whole range of meanings denoted by all the prepositions "since, until, to the most distant time"; i.e. it assumes the meaning "(unlimited, incalculable) continuance, eternity." (THAT II, p. 230) J. Barr (Biblical Words for Time ( 21969), p. 73) says, "We might therefore best state the "basic meaning" as a kind of range between 'remotest time' and 'perpetuity"'. But as shown above it is sometimes used of a not-so-remote past. For the meaning of the word in its attributive use we should note the designation of the Lord as 'el 'olam, "The Eternal God" (Gen 21:33).

The LXX generally translates 'olam by aion which has essentially the same range of meaning. That neither the Hebrew nor the Greek word in itself contains the idea of endlessness is shown both by the fact that they sometimes refer to events or conditions that occurred at a definite point in the past, and also by the fact that sometimes it is thought desirable to repeat the word, not merely saying "forever, " but "forever and ever.

Both words came to be used to refer to a long age or period-an idea that is sometimes expressed in English by "world." Post biblical Jewish writings refer to the present world of toil as ha'olam hazzeh and to the world to come as ha'olam habba'.

'ad (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as 'olam (usually long continuance into the future, but cf. Job 20:4).

Bibliography: Snaith, Norman H., "Time in the Old Testament, " in Promise and Fulfillment, Essays Presented to Professor S. H. Hooke, ed. F. F. Bruce, Edinburgh: Clark, 1963, pp. 175-86. Jenni, E., "Das wort 'olam im AT, " Diss, Theol. Basel 1953 ( ZAW 64:197-248; 65:1-35). A.A.M.

Strong’s - H5703 [size=+1]עד[/size] ‛ad ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

BDB - H5703 [size=+1]עד[/size] ‛ad
BDB Definition:
1) perpetuity, for ever, continuing future
1a) ancient (of past time)
1b) for ever (of future time)
1b1) of continuous existence
1c) for ever (of God’s existence)
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5710
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1565a

TWOT - 1565 - [size=+1]עדה[/size] 'ada
Hebrew Word: 'ada
Strong's Cross Reference: 5710
Definition: I, go on, pass by; Hipha, remove. Probably root of the following.

Derivative TWOT Number: 1565a
Derivative Transliteration: 'ad
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference: 5703
Derivative Definition: I, perpetuity, continuing future.

as far as, even to, until, while. 'ad 1. Perpetuity. ASV, RSV translate similarly, except in Isa 45:17. Here the former has "world without end" while the latter has "to all eternity."

It should be noted that there is no general word for time in Hebrew, neither are there special terms for the past, present, future, and etemity. The word 'olam should be compared, with special attention given to the nineteen times when these words are used together.

'ad, like 'olam, is used only in connection with prepositions, as an adverbial accusative or as a genitive in a construct chain. Ugaritic b'd 'lm could correspond to Hebrew 'od as well as to 'ad (UT 19: no. 1813).

This word is used only twice relative to the past. The knowledge that the success of the wicked is shon, has been known from of old (Job 20:4). In Hab 3:6 reference is made to the antiquity of the mountains.

Otherwise it always denotes the unforeseeable .future; that is, it means in the following compounds: [size=+1]עדי־עד[/size] "forever" (Isa 26:4; Isa 65:18; Psa 83:17 [H 18]; Psa 92:7 [H 8); Psa 132:12, Psa 132:14, la'ad .. forever, " (Isa 64:9 [H 8]; Amo 1:11; Mic 7:18; Psa 9:18 [H 19]; Psa 19:9 [H 10]; Psa 21:6 [H 7]; Psa 22:26 [H 27]; Psa 37:29; Psa 61:8 [H 9]; Psa 89:29 [H 30]; Psa 111:3, Psa 111:8, Psa 111:10; Psa 112:3, Psa 112:9; Psa 148:6; Job 19:24; Pro 12:19; Pro 29:14; 1Ch 28:9); (jldm wa'ad and 'bl, im wa'ad "forever and ever" (Exo 15:18; Mic 4:5; Psa 9:5 [H 6]; Psa 10:16; Psa 21:4 [H 5]; Psa 45:6 [H 7], Psa 45:17 [H 18]; Psa 48:14 [H 15]; Psa 52:8 [H 10]; Psa 104:5; Psa 119:44; Psa 145:1, Psa 145:2, Psa 145:21; Dan 12:3); and as well as in a construct chain in which it serves as the modifier (Isa 9:6 [H 5]) 'abi-'ad "father forever"; Isa 57:15; shoken 'ad "the eternal throne"; Hab 3:6; harere-'ad "the everlasting hills."

Frequently the word 'ad is applied to God. His existence is eternal (Isa 57:15). While his righteousness endures forever (Psa 111:3; Psa 112:3, Psa 112:9), his anger does not (Mic 7:18). God is worthy of praise and will be praised forever (Psa 45:17 [H 18]; Psa 52:9 [H 10]; Psa 111:10; Psa 145:1, Psa 145:2, Psa 145:21). The throne of God (Psa 10:16; Psa 45:6 [H 7]; Exo 15:18) and the law of God (Psa 19:9 [H 10]) will endure forever.

This word is also applied to Israel. The Davidic dynasty will continue forever, depending upon their response to the covenant (Psa 89:29 [H 30]; Psa 132:12). Zion is God's dwelling place forever (Psa 48:14 [H 15]; Psa 132:14; 1Ch 28:9).

A sharp contrast is seen in the use of this word relative to the righteous and wicked. The righteous will not always be forgotten (Psa 9:18 [H 19]) and they will inherit the land forever (Psa 37:29). By contrast the wicked are doomed to destruction forever (Psa 9:6 [H 7]; Psa 92:7 [H 8]).

'ad II, as far as, even to, until, while. The special poetic form, 'ade is used twelve times. 'ad functions as both preposition and conjunction. It indicates the gamut, beginning with the distance from, the advance toward, and the movement up to. It is used spatially, temporally, and comparatively.

Spatially it can indicate arrival at a geographical location ("as far as Bethel, " Gen 12:6), at a particular object ("up to the horns of the altar," Psa 118:27) and at a person ("approach to God," Exo 22:8). When used in combination with min it gives the idea of extent ("from Sidon... as far as Gaza, " Gen 10:19). Idiomatically it designates range (from the young to the old, Gen 19:4).

This word is used temporally to indicate a continuation of an event from a point in the past to the present (Gen 19:37, Gen 19:38). It can be used of an event clearly in the past (Gen 8:7) and also of an event in the future (Gen 3:19; Deu 7:20, Deu 7:23). As a conjunction it can refer to action which has already happened (Deu 2:14) or one which has not yet been completed at the time of the writing (2Sa 17:13). A continuing event can be designated under such translations as "while" and "during" ("the exalting of the wicked is but for a moment, " Job 20:5; cf. Jon 4:2; 2Ki 9:22).

It can be used comparatively in the sense of measure or degree to suggest a higher or the highest. Esther is promised her request by the king up to half the kingdom (Est 5:6). Paying the tithe will result in an overwhelming blessing (Mal 3:10). God's words are said to run even to haste, i.e. swiftly (Psa 147:15). When used with the negative it expresses the concept of "not even as much as." The family of Shimei did not have as many children as Judah (1Ch 4:27). Abishai was chief of the thirty but he did not attain to the three (2Sa 23:19). The army of Sisera was totally destroyed, not a man was left (Jdg 4:16). As a conjunctive it can indicate a degree of achievement which becomes perpetual (Isa 47:7).

Bibliography: Ginsberg, H. L., 'A Preposition of Interest to Historical Geographers, " BASOR 122:12-14; 124:29-30. C.S.

BDB - H2865 [size=+1]חתת[/size] châthath
BDB Definition:
1) to be shattered, be dismayed, be broken, be abolished, be afraid
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to be shattered, be broken
1a2) to be dismayed
1b) (Niphal) to be broken, be dismayed
1c) (Piel) to be shattered, be dismayed, be scared
1d) (Hiphil)
1d1) to cause to be dismayed
1d2) to dismay, terrify
1d3) to shatter
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 784​

Another look at Isaiah 34:10.

Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.​

Apparently, for some, the torment begins in this life. See Rev. 14:11.

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.​

Then immediately at death, in hell, in torments, See, Heb 9:27, 2 Cor 5:8,

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.​

The condition of those in hades, in torment, is permanent, irrevocable.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

And in the world to come, torment for ever and ever, no rest day nor night.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Seeing as how the word "hell" did not come into existence until at least 1,000 or more years after Jesus' Ascension then it is safe to say He never once spoke the word "hell".

What wordS DID He use?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Seeing as how the word "hell" did not come into existence until at least 1,000 or more years after Jesus' Ascension then it is safe to say He never once spoke the word "hell".

What wordS DID He use?

If I had to guess, I would say that he used the words sheol and whatever the hebrew word was for gehenna. I suspect that hades is the Greek translation for sheol, but I doubt that Jesus actually used the word hades, especially so if he knew it was the name of a pagan god, which undoubtedly he would have known.

 

[Soul Searcher]

but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

And for those that use r-e-a-l-l-y strong language will be in even d-e-e-p-e-r hell, right?

I wish I still had the link but alas is lost, anyway I was researching this on the net a while back and found something interesting. I can not say for sure what the accuracy of this is and am going from memory so take it for what it is.

Anyway, I read that in the day[time of Jesus] if someone were to call another a fool it was equated to accusing them of worshiping a false God. This accusation was considered to be very serious and the accusor had to prove that the accusation was correct. If the accusor proved his claim the the accused was executed[possibly by burning alive] and tossed into gehenna literally.

Now if the accusor failed to prove his claim he would suffer the fate intended for the accused [ I assume because of the thou shalt not bear false witness commandment]

So with this in mind and assuming it is true then if someone said to thy brother[fellow man] thou fool then the accusor would indeed be in danger of the literal fire of gehenna on that very day.

Perhaps this is what Jesus was referring to here in this verse.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

I wish I still had the link but alas is lost, anyway I was researching this on the net a while back and found something interesting. I can not say for sure what the accuracy of this is and am going from memory so take it for what it is.

Anyway, I read that in the day[time of Jesus] if someone were to call another a fool it was equated to accusing them of worshiping a false God. This accusation was considered to be very serious and the accusor had to prove that the accusation was correct. If the accusor proved his claim the the accused was executed[possibly by burning alive] and tossed into gehenna literally.

Now if the accusor failed to prove his claim he would suffer the fate intended for the accused [ I assume because of the thou shalt not bear false witness commandment]

So with this in mind and assuming it is true then if someone said to thy brother[fellow man] thou fool then the accusor would indeed be in danger of the literal fire of gehenna on that very day.

Perhaps this is what Jesus was referring to here in this verse.

It beginning to sound like all the times Jesus used whatever words it was the KJ translators changed to "hell" are mostly adding up to figures of speech.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Matthew 5:29, "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Ok, so we can cut out the dominant eye for viewing pornography and we get to go to heaven but the eyeball goes to hell. Donchya just love literalism?

Isn't it amazing how many one handed, one footed, one eyed literalist we see in the world?


Note: I hope you do not mind me quoting and responding to just a small portion of your posts from time to time.

 

[Soul Searcher]

It beginning to sound like all the times Jesus used whatever words it was the KJ translators changed to "hell" are mostly adding up to figures of speech.

I agree, and it is said that Jesus spoke to the masses in parables....
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Which would seem to indicate that when he spoke in public he was using figures of speech.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

if the unified field theory and all that string and super string theory stuff is correct and there is one ultimate law that all other laws follow and if God is that ultimate law and contemporary string theorists are right that there are eleven levels and God is level number one what are the other ten levels?

 

[Pilgrim 33]

[/color]

Isn't it amazing how many one handed, one footed, one eyed literalist we see in the world?
.

yeah, like the one-eyed three-legged dog named Lucky.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Seeing as how the word "hell" did not come into existence until at least 1,000 or more years after Jesus' Ascension then it is safe to say He never once spoke the word "hell".

What wordS DID He use?[/SIZE]

The N.T. was written in Greek, Jesus spoke Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. None of the 35 words in the above quote came into existence until at least 1500 years after Jesus ascension it is safe to say He never spoke any of them. You don't seem to have a problem with using your native language to discuss the scriptures. But you are right there with the holier than thou accusations because the KJV translators used the language they and their audience knew to describe words, places, and things, they would not have otherwise understood. How many people in 16th century England knew what Sheol, Por, Gehenna, or 'Ades meant?

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]If I had to guess, I would say that he used the words sheol and whatever the hebrew word was for gehenna. I suspect that hades is the Greek translation for sheol, but I doubt that Jesus actually used the word hades, especially so if he knew it was the name of a pagan god, which undoubtedly he would have known.[/SIZE]

Garbanzo beans! So according to you the Bible is corrupt? Jesus is quoted as saying things He did not say? As with most of the stuff being posted here in support of Universalism and Annihilationism, your post is false. 'Ades or Hades was not the name of a pagan god. Instead of just blindly parroting stuff you heard, at least have the honesty and integrity to check out what you say. Hades is listed in the dictionary.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Isn't it amazing how many one handed, one footed, one eyed literalist we see in the world?[/SIZE]

The standard cop-out for every Christian Unorthdox Later Theology religion around, if scripture contradicts your false doctrine, then it must be allegorical, symbolical, figurative, metaphorical, or spiritual. Everything in the Bible can be blown off that way.

If the plain sense, of scripture, makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense.

And OBTW I backed up my reference to figures of speech.Did you or anyone else trying to refute me?