The Fall

[heymikey80]

Yes God either causes (deterministic control) or allows (by the independent action of men) all things. God arranged for Adam to sin, but by Adam's independent choice.

Seems Adam was dependent on everything that came from God. In what way was Adam's choice independent? Solely in that he defied God's instruction? If God made him this way, isn't that really operating dependent on God's design? You're saying God intentionally set Adam up to do this.

You do not need 100 pages to understand it, just read the passages that tell of God placing the tree of the klnowledge of good and evil in the garden, and telling Adam not to eat, then allowing Satan, the serpant of old, to deceive Eve.

Huh? That wouldn't make sense of why there'd even be an opening post on the subject. Why'd you make any comment at all in the OP? Why not just quote the verses and move on?

I'd advise at least reading one other critical verse regarding this subject:

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Rom 5:12-14
​

 

[Ormly]

Beloved 57, the opening post addressed the Fall, but did not address the issue of whether (1) God caused by deterministic control, Adam to sin; or (2) God arranged for Adam to sin, but allowed Adam to independently choose to sin. The correct answer is that God arranged for Adam to sin, because the Fall was part of God's plan from before creation.

Lets be more accurate here. God never leads anyone into temptation. That is not arguable. Having said that, God, of necessity to prove Adam and hopefully gain his allegiance, allowed the test of it be made to his character that would define his nature. Which way would Adam choose was the issue that needed to be played out that God could further His plan for bringing into glory many son's filled with the Christ of Himself. If Adam was faithful, manys son's would have been born forever sinless blood of Adam. If he failed, they would still be born however, redemption would be necessary for them to be brought into Glory by the sinless Blood of Jesus..

That's my short version.

 

[Ormly]

Van

Folks, the Word was chosen before creation to be God's lamb, therefore the Fall was part of God's plan from before creation, for you do not choose a Redeemer unless you plan on your Redeemer redeeming those who need redeeming.

We all know that, but so were you chosen and me and everyone else to be unto Him an object of either honor dishonor simply because God foreknew the choices we would all make. Jesus was always in the Mind of God in case Adam failed. If you want it to be that God foreknew Adam would fail, I have know problem with that. God foreknew everything. Why else would Jesus be necessary?

You must remember that the trinity before the cross was Father, Word and the Holy Ghost. After the Cross it became, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The Son being a divine human, Christ Jesus. It was first given to Adam to participate in the Trinity as the first divine human.

 

[Van]

Ormly, lets be accurate here. You said God never leads anyone into temptation, but no verse was provided. Why pray, lead us not into temptation, if it never happens? Do not confuse the fact that God never tempts anyone, with the fact that God can put us in a circumstance where we are tempted by our own fallen nature. See James 1:13-14

I agree God allowed Satan to deceive Eve, and thus trigger Eve's appeal to Adam. God arranged for the Fall, that is clear from scripture.

See Romans 5:12-14. Note that Paul says the "sin" was not counted, but then says it resulted in death. What is up with that? The answer is provided in the same passage, for it was the sin of transgression of the law that was not counted before the law was given, so the sinners were sinning, but not knowingly violating the word of God. They would treat others differently than they would want to be treated, and so forth. Their lack of integrety was a misdeed of their heart, and thus death reigned from Adam to Moses without the sin of transgressing like Adam did when he went against the command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The opening post is supported by all scripture.

 

[Van]

Hi Ormly, the SON, existed before Jesus was conceived. The Word is called the Son at creation!

And again, no one was individually chosen before creation unto salvation, that view is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10, which says were lived without mercy before we were chosen to be a part of God's people.
It is a lock.

 

[Van]

Some might argue that God is not omnipotent, He is not powerful enough to be able to create man able to think and plan independently from God's deterministic control. But that is putting God in a box created by the doctrines of men. Scripture says we make choices, and a key one is to choose life or death, to trust and obey or go our own way.

God bless

 

[beloved57]

ormly

Lets be more accurate here. God never leads anyone into temptation. That is not arguable. Having said that, God, of necessity to prove Adam and hopefully gain his allegiance, allowed the test of it be made to his character that would define his nature. Which way would Adam choose was the issue that needed to be played out that God could further His plan for bringing into glory many son's filled with the Christ of Himself. If Adam was faithful, manys son's would have been born forever sinless blood of Adam. If he failed, they would still be born however, redemption would be necessary for them to be brought into Glory by the sinless Blood of Jesus..

That's my short version.

A fable this is not biblical lol

 

[beloved57]

Originally Posted by Van
Beloved 57, the opening post addressed the Fall, but did not address the issue of whether (1) God caused by deterministic control, Adam to sin; or (2) God arranged for Adam to sin, but allowed Adam to independently choose to sin. The correct answer is that God arranged for Adam to sin, because the Fall was part of God's plan from before creation.

God decreed caused the fall it was Gods will that adam fall God wanted adam to fall..

 

[beloved57]

Ormly, lets be accurate here. You said God never leads anyone into temptation, but no verse was provided. Why pray, lead us not into temptation, if it never happens? Do not confuse the fact that God never tempts anyone, with the fact that God can put us in a circumstance where we are tempted by our own fallen nature. See James 1:13-14

I agree God allowed Satan to deceive Eve, and thus trigger Eve's appeal to Adam. God arranged for the Fall, that is clear from scripture.

See Romans 5:12-14. Note that Paul says the "sin" was not counted, but then says it resulted in death. What is up with that? The answer is provided in the same passage, for it was the sin of transgression of the law that was not counted before the law was given, so the sinners were sinning, but not knowingly violating the word of God. They would treat others differently than they would want to be treated, and so forth. Their lack of integrety was a misdeed of their heart, and thus death reigned from Adam to Moses without the sin of transgressing like Adam did when he went against the command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The opening post is supported by all scripture.

Get out of here with that madness, paul is stating that thats why babies die without actually sinning like adam, because they broke the law in their head adam..

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Van;Paul says by the sin of the one (Adam) the many (mankind) were made sinners. Is a person who is predisposed to sin, but has not knowingly sinned yet, say a baby in the womb, a "sinner"?

Yup. A sin looking for an opportunity to happen!
One of those little reprobates upchucked on my Armani!

If we are conceived in iniquity, does that mean we are sinners at conception?

Indeed. Lacking experience but loaded with talent.

Is our "sin nature" passed to us physically, like a sin gene?

Why, are you developing a vaccine?

In summary, the Fall resulted in mankind being corrupted spiritually, and separated from God. Thus we are condemned to our separated corrupted state from conception, we are conceived in iniquity. And so even though we may not have sinned, say as a baby who has done nothing good or bad in the womb, we are condemned already, and the only way to obtain the righteousness of God is through faith in Christ. So a baby who has not faith, is condemned already as the result of the Fall, just as John 3:18 says.

Total Depravity (spiritualy speaking).
Van, you're at least a "1-Point Calvinist".

 

[Van]

Hi Beloved57, I supported position number 2 from scripture. You have no verse that says God deterministically caused Adam to sin. God set before Adam a choice, to eat or not to eat, and Adam chose to eat, knowing God had said if you do you will surely die.

God asks, what have you done, not what have I done to you.

 

[Van]

Get out of here with that madness, paul is stating that thats why babies die without actually sinning like adam, because they broke the law in their head adam..

The passage does not mention babies. Get out of here with assertions not supported by scripture.

 

[Van]

Hi Rick, I agree with everything you posted, but the point is not the Calvinist doctrine of total spiritual inability, the point is the consequence of original sin makes everyone from conception a sinner, even though they have done nothing good or bad. But being a sinner does not say a person cannot seek the tree of life, see the opening post.

The only point of the TULIP I believe is biblical is "P"

 

[Ormly]

Ormly, lets be accurate here. You said God never leads anyone into temptation, but no verse was provided. Why pray, lead us not into temptation, if it never happens?

Jesus was speaking to His Disciples. Why would you suppose God would even entertain the idea? However, we see this: "Immediately the Spirit drove Him into the wilderness. He was in the wilderness 40 days, being tempted by Satan. . ." Mark 1:12-13 (HCSB)


Judas was lead into temptation by God. Why? What kind of a man was he that God would lead him? Are we anything near what Judas was? Would we want God to give up on us?? 'And Father please don't give up on us but delliver us from evil'.

I agree God allowed Satan to deceive Eve, and thus trigger Eve's temptation of Adam. God arranged for the Fall, that is clear from scripture.

Wrong perspective Van. God allowed Eve to be put to the test to reveal her allegiance.

See Romans 5:12-14. Note that Paul says the "sin" was not counted, but then says it resulted in death. What is up with that?

Separation from God is death. Separation brings on "Self-love as god."

The opening post is supported by all scripture.

Mis-contrued to mean other than intended by the writer.

 

[Ormly]

Hi Ormly, the SON, existed before Jesus was conceived. The Word is called the Son at creation!

And again, no one was individually chosen before creation unto salvation, that view is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10, which says were lived without mercy before we were chosen to be a part of God's people.
It is a lock.

I am sorry but,

. I can't take it anymore. Think what you will.

 

[Van]

I can take it till the cows come home, the SON, existed before Jesus was conceived. The Word is called the Son at creation!

And again, no one was individually chosen before creation unto salvation, that view is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10, which says we lived without mercy before we were chosen to be a part of God's people.
It is a lock.

 

[Ormly]

I can take it till the cows come home, the SON, existed before Jesus was conceived. The Word is called the Son at creation!

And again, no one was individually chosen before creation unto salvation, that view is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10, which says we lived without mercy before we were chosen to be a part of God's people.
It is a lock.

Well I can't take it and leave you to your blindness in the matter as well as other matters because any common ground there may have been, what there was of it, has given way to a sink hole. If you don't the difference between reality and actuality, I can't help you. I did my best.

 

[Van]

Ormly, disparaging others demonstrates the reality of the actuality that a position is untendable.

 

[Ormly]

It is interesting how Van doesn't even address my analogy using a rose.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41607949&postcount=40

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Van;Hi Rick, I agree with everything you posted, but the point is not the Calvinist doctrine of total spiritual inability, the point is the consequence of original sin makes everyone from conception a sinner, even though they have done nothing good or bad. But being a sinner does not say a person cannot seek the tree of life, see the opening post.

Maybe you didn't notice it was the OP I was quoting & responding to. Immortality has been pursued, but not as a spiritual endeavor.
We're still Two for "T".