I am looking for the perspectives of two "Fall of Satan" views. The first says Satan's fall happened before Gen 1:1. The other view says Satan's fall happened between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. What is your view, and why?
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The Fall of Satan. Is it before Gen 1:1 or between Gen 1:1, 1:2?
- Thread starter Paleouss
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So is this comment for a fall of Satan before Gen 1:1 or between Gen 1:1 & 1:2.
Gen 1:5 is the end of the first day.
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Reasonably Sane
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To take it even further, "satan" is not a proper noun, even when capitalized in our English bibles. It's a job description. And it means, among other things, "adversary". I believe that is why Jesus called Peter "satan". I think he was actually saying, you are being adversarial to God's plan. There are lots of adversaries to God's plan in the bible. And they are all beings created by God. I honestly believe some of them were created specifically for that job. I at least believe it is possible. The older I get, the bigger the box I envision around the personality of God. If you get my drift.
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We exist in this universe's time, but for the last 100 years we have repeatedly shown time to be relative, so how "relative" would it be for God?
Can we think outside the sequencing of events?
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Reasonably Sane
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A guy asks God, "how long is a minute for you?"
God answers, "About a billion years."
Then the guy asks God, "how much is a billion dollars?"
God answers, "About a penny."
Then the guy asks, "God, can I have a penny?
God says, "Sure. Give me a minute."
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When we speak of God, most assuredly. God is eternal being. There is no beginning and no end.
But are you saying angelic beings are outside the sequencing of events? Time being 'relative' seems to have little to do with being bound to the sequencing of events. If duration of time between event x and y is relative, that doesn't mean there is no event x and y for angels. It also doesn't mean there is no time, only that it is relative.
It seems to me that angels are bound to the sequencing of events. One, because they are not eternal and second because there was a fall of Satan. Satan could not fall before he was created because he is bound to the sequencing of events.
May God do a fruitful work through you.
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Ivan Hlavanda
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Genesis 1 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
All was good, so there was no sin yet. Satan fell sometime after the sixth day.
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Reasonably Sane
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sandman
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Since you can’t have anything before the beginning … my speculation would be between Genesis_ 1:1 & 1:2 …but it’s speculation ….there is nothing in the Word that states it specifically.
It would not contradict there being no sin or death in the world since that was the first heavens & earth ….Adam &Eve were in the second ….as per 2Pe 3:5-7 &3:13.
[[2Pe 3:6 could not be referring to Noah’s flood as it stated it was destroyed (apollymi). And seeing as Noah & family (which was I think 76 total people) along with the ark and animals that were not destroyed.]]
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Since you present a picture in which the fall of Satan possibly happens between Gen 1:1 & 1:2, I recognize you stated it would be speculation, I would like to ask your thoughts on Gen 1:2 and the interpretation of it.
I have noticed that those that those that think the fall of Satan was between Gen 1:1 & 1:2 focus on the Hebrew words "was", "without form", "void" and the Hebrew word that is translated into "darkness".
I suppose a question would be, if God is light then where did the darkness come from? Before creation there is no thing other than God.
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ViaCrucis
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St. Augustine, as an example of Christian thought on this subject, opined several possibilities in his writings.
Firstly, it must be stated that Augustine did not take to a literal interpretation of the six days of creation, rather maintaining that the six days should be interpreted figuratively. Augustine saw in a passage in the Book of Sirach, more specifically the Latin translation that was available to him, which suggested that God created everything at once. Thus Augustine viewed the act of creation as a work of God creating everything ex nihilo, from nothing.
With this in mind, Augustine opined that it is most probable that the creation of the angels occurred "in the beginning", and that this is covered under the word "heaven" in "God created the heavens and the earth". In this interpretation "heaven" designates the invisible and unseen creation of God, in contrast to "earth" which encompasses not just the solid ground or world we inhabit but the entire material creation.
However Augustine acknowledges other possibilities.
1) That the creation of the angels were created "in the beginning" but that "heaven" refers to the celestial (the material creation outside the earth's sphere) in contrast with "earth" which is the terrestrial (the material creation "down here"); and that the creation of the angels is indicated in the first day of creation with the creation of light/day.
2) Augustine also admits an entirely different possibility that the angels were created before time began with the creation of the material universe, and where "in the beginning" does not mean "in the beginning of time", but rather "in the Beginning" interpreting "beginning" with John 8:25. A rather literal translation of John 8:25 (and this is maintained in the Latin translation which Augustine would have been familiar) has Jesus' response as "The beginning, even as I have said unto you" (Τὴν ἀρχὴν ὅ τι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν). Thus Augustine could therefore see the interpretation of "the beginning" as Christ, and thus it refers not to the beginning of time--the beginning of creation--but to the Person of Jesus, the Word of God who was in the beginning "through whom all things were made" (John 1:3). So Genesis 1:1 is not the beginning of creation per se, but rather describes God creating heaven and earth through Christ; and in this it was possible that perhaps the angels were created before the heavens and the earth.
With this diversity of possibility (and I've just been sharing some thoughts I've read, second hand, concerning Augustine's opinions), the devil's fall is almost anyone's guess.
At any time between the creation of the angels (whenever that happened) and the devil tempting Adam and Eve is possible. There is a tradition that has existed since the time of 2nd Temple Judaism that when God made Adam the angels were told to bow in deference to him; there were those angels who did not, including the angel who would become Satan. This is how, in this tradition, the angels rebelled. They refused to give deference to a younger and, from their view, lesser creation. It was their pride that caused their fall. This tradition can be found, for example, in a work called 2 Enoch, which is a work that is difficult to date and made more complicated because our surviving manuscripts show signs of possible later tampering. This tradition, like many traditions which circulated in Jewish and Christian circles, was adopted by Islam but made to fit a Muslim view of the devil (in Islam the devil isn't a fallen angel, but an evil jin).
That tradition isn't, of course, a part of Christian teaching; but it is a view that has existed for a very long time.
At the end of the day we don't know when, or even why, the devil and his cohorts fell.
Our Lord tells us that he was a liar and a murderer from the beginning. We also have our Lord tells us that He "saw Satan fall like lightning to the earth", but that statement is a highly debated one. Even as the war in heaven passage in the Apocalypse a hotly contested and debated passage.
All we can say is that the angels were created by God, and sometime after their creation some of them became rebellious. That's about it really.
-CryptoLutheran
Firstly, it must be stated that Augustine did not take to a literal interpretation of the six days of creation, rather maintaining that the six days should be interpreted figuratively. Augustine saw in a passage in the Book of Sirach, more specifically the Latin translation that was available to him, which suggested that God created everything at once. Thus Augustine viewed the act of creation as a work of God creating everything ex nihilo, from nothing.
With this in mind, Augustine opined that it is most probable that the creation of the angels occurred "in the beginning", and that this is covered under the word "heaven" in "God created the heavens and the earth". In this interpretation "heaven" designates the invisible and unseen creation of God, in contrast to "earth" which encompasses not just the solid ground or world we inhabit but the entire material creation.
However Augustine acknowledges other possibilities.
1) That the creation of the angels were created "in the beginning" but that "heaven" refers to the celestial (the material creation outside the earth's sphere) in contrast with "earth" which is the terrestrial (the material creation "down here"); and that the creation of the angels is indicated in the first day of creation with the creation of light/day.
2) Augustine also admits an entirely different possibility that the angels were created before time began with the creation of the material universe, and where "in the beginning" does not mean "in the beginning of time", but rather "in the Beginning" interpreting "beginning" with John 8:25. A rather literal translation of John 8:25 (and this is maintained in the Latin translation which Augustine would have been familiar) has Jesus' response as "The beginning, even as I have said unto you" (Τὴν ἀρχὴν ὅ τι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν). Thus Augustine could therefore see the interpretation of "the beginning" as Christ, and thus it refers not to the beginning of time--the beginning of creation--but to the Person of Jesus, the Word of God who was in the beginning "through whom all things were made" (John 1:3). So Genesis 1:1 is not the beginning of creation per se, but rather describes God creating heaven and earth through Christ; and in this it was possible that perhaps the angels were created before the heavens and the earth.
With this diversity of possibility (and I've just been sharing some thoughts I've read, second hand, concerning Augustine's opinions), the devil's fall is almost anyone's guess.
At any time between the creation of the angels (whenever that happened) and the devil tempting Adam and Eve is possible. There is a tradition that has existed since the time of 2nd Temple Judaism that when God made Adam the angels were told to bow in deference to him; there were those angels who did not, including the angel who would become Satan. This is how, in this tradition, the angels rebelled. They refused to give deference to a younger and, from their view, lesser creation. It was their pride that caused their fall. This tradition can be found, for example, in a work called 2 Enoch, which is a work that is difficult to date and made more complicated because our surviving manuscripts show signs of possible later tampering. This tradition, like many traditions which circulated in Jewish and Christian circles, was adopted by Islam but made to fit a Muslim view of the devil (in Islam the devil isn't a fallen angel, but an evil jin).
That tradition isn't, of course, a part of Christian teaching; but it is a view that has existed for a very long time.
At the end of the day we don't know when, or even why, the devil and his cohorts fell.
Our Lord tells us that he was a liar and a murderer from the beginning. We also have our Lord tells us that He "saw Satan fall like lightning to the earth", but that statement is a highly debated one. Even as the war in heaven passage in the Apocalypse a hotly contested and debated passage.
All we can say is that the angels were created by God, and sometime after their creation some of them became rebellious. That's about it really.
-CryptoLutheran
Akita Suggagaki
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Or mythic time or sacred time. Like "kairos rather than "kronos".
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RonJohnSilver
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The Bible says nothing about the fall of Satan (Lucifer) until he appears in chapter 3. Clearly, he had fallen by then. In Job 38 God asks Job where he was "when the foundations of the earth were laid and all the stars of heaven sang together...". So, at the time of creation then, all the stars (angels in this context) are singing together so Lucifer had not yet fallen. It's a little hard to follow the chronology because Genesis 1 is an overview and chapter 2 then goes into more detail of chapter 1 before continuing the narrative in chapter 3. So, really I think trying to pin a time for the devils rebellion is speculative at best. I suspect it's one of those area that the Lord didn't provide the details because He knew it would lead to fruitless speculations. We can ask in Heaven. There are some authors who have attempted to answer the question though. An internet search would likely give you more than you could possibly want.
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