The Fall of Satan. Is it before Gen 1:1 or between Gen 1:1, 1:2?

[Paul4JC]

It is not so linked in Genesis.

Based on what?

[Isa 45:18 RSV] 18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it a chaos, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

8414. tohu ►

Strong's Concordance Original Word: תֹּהוּ​ Definition: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness

How was there chaos if he did not create it?​

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Based on what?

Based on Genesis chapter one.

 

[Paleouss]

The darkness and chaos of 1:2 is linked to the fall of Satan and he is the creator/cause of the same.

I am interested in your comment, "darkness and chaos of 1:2 is linked to the fall". As I understand this view, the overarching theme is 'The Kingdom'. The concept is that the Bible has two major themes, (1) The Kingdom of God and the war over that Kingdom (2) The Redemption of Mankind.

As I understand this view, the dominion over the Kingdom was first given to Lucifer as the anointed cherub (Eze 28:11-19). Lucifer lost that designation (between Gen 1:1 & 1:2) and then Adam (mankind) was given dominion over the earth.

Gen 1:2. NKJ The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Again, as I understand this view, the Hebrew word "was" (hā·yə·ṯāh) occurs in the Bible 111x. The translation is become/became/was. So this particular 'Kingdom' view sees this translation as "The earth 'became'". Further, the Hebrew words translated " without form" (NKJ) or "formless" (KJV), ṯō·hū, occurs 11 times in the Bible and are translated "wasteland" (Isa 45:18), "place of chaos" (Isa 24:10), "vanity" (Isa 59:4), to reference a few.

So after all that, we might see Gen 1:2 saying, The earth became a wasteland/chaos, empty/chaos: and darkness....

Then, as I understand it, darkness is seen as the result of Satan and his fall because darkness in the Bible signifies sin/evil. (1John 1:5 ...God is light and in Him is no darkness at all). So a common retort would ask, where does the darkness come from in Gen 1:2? It doesn't say God created it.

Do I have this close to your understanding of this topic?


May God do a fruitful work through you.

 

[Paleouss]

St. Augustine, as an example of Christian thought on this subject, opined several possibilities in his writings.

All of what you wrote is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Paleouss]

How was there chaos if he did not create it?

Just saw your comment here after responding to Paul4JC. Is the view I tried to articulate to Paul4JC something like you are saying?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Based on what?

[Isa 45:18 RSV] 18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it a chaos, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

​

8414. tohu ►

​

Strong's Concordance Original Word: תֹּהוּ​ Definition: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness

​

How was there chaos if he did not create it?​

Absence isn't a thing. It's the opposite of a thing, the lack of a thing.

Darkness isn't something, it's the lack of something, specifically light.

In this case formlessness/chaos/emptiness isn't something, it's the lack of something--it's the lack of form, it's the absence of order.

Genesis 1 presents God as giving form to the formless, ordering the disordered. If you have an empty piece of land and build a house on the land, the absence of a house isn't something that was made--nobody made an empty lot; it is the building of the house that makes something that was not previously there. When you cook food and put it on a plate, the lack of food on your plate before wasn't something someone cooked--nobody cooks a nothing that is then replaced by a something. There is nothing, and then there is something.

We could go on endlessly with analogies and examples of the lack of something isn't something; it's nothing. There's nothing until there is something.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Paul4JC]

I am interested in your comment, "darkness and chaos of 1:2 is linked to the fall". As I understand this view, the overarching theme is 'The Kingdom'. The concept is that the Bible has two major themes, (1) The Kingdom of God and the war over that Kingdom (2) The Redemption of Mankind.

As I understand this view, the dominion over the Kingdom was first given to Lucifer as the anointed cherub (Eze 28:11-19). Lucifer lost that designation (between Gen 1:1 & 1:2) and then Adam (mankind) was given dominion over the earth.



Again, as I understand this view, the Hebrew word "was" (hā·yə·ṯāh) occurs in the Bible 111x. The translation is become/became/was. So this particular 'Kingdom' view sees this translation as "The earth 'became'". Further, the Hebrew words translated " without form" (NKJ) or "formless" (KJV), ṯō·hū, occurs 11 times in the Bible and are translated "wasteland" (Isa 45:18), "place of chaos" (Isa 24:10), "vanity" (Isa 59:4), to reference a few.

So after all that, we might see Gen 1:2 saying, The earth became a wasteland/chaos, empty/chaos: and darkness....

Then, as I understand it, darkness is seen as the result of Satan and his fall because darkness in the Bible signifies sin/evil. (1John 1:5 ...God is light and in Him is no darkness at all). So a common retort would ask, where does the darkness come from in Gen 1:2? It doesn't say God created it.

Do I have this close to your understanding of this topic?


May God do a fruitful work through you.

Thanks for your positive response. There are far and few at this forum. Everyone is out to derail you. Doesn't disciple mean learner?

On one side it's too complex, on the other it's so simple. God had to deal with darkness and chaos and did so by bringing out good from evil! In this process, he created the heavens above, the earth, seas, and the abysmal underworld. He took a hideous mess and created good from it, as he says about 7 times, " ...it was good."

Yes, you make sense in what you posted. It clear that besides darkness and chaos, water is also there before day one of creation. The obvious question is WHY?!

I've been studying Leviathan and Behemoth concerning this chaos. I've noticed in most all the writings these creatures are posed as poetry or symbolism. I just don't see that. Why would God take whole chapters of the Book of Job to describe creatures that don't really exist.?

I do notice in most of what I've read on L and B, they don't attempt to connect these creatures to the fall of Satan. Yet Genesis separates them from other animals. Why would he do that?

[Gen 1:21 RSV] 21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

There is much in the second temple books as well as a few Targums. Some are more credible than others. There is an interesting passage in the book of Adam and Eve concerning Satan losing his light when he was kicked out of heaven.

While I really enjoy fringe topics, they all must be linked to the Bible. For sure certain books make strong allusions to stuff we find in the Bible. More and more I find it's not what I was taught as a young believer.

I have compiled some stuff such topics. Still learning.

Blessings to you In Christ

 

[Paul4JC]

Darkness isn't something, it's the lack of something, specifically light.

We could go on endlessly with analogies and examples of the lack of something isn't something; it's nothing. There's nothing until there is something.

I understand what you are saying, but is that what the text says? Does God just put words out for no reason? Does it say there was nothing? It does not but explains to us exactly what was there. The Spirit of God was not hovering over "nothing" but something serious was going on in 1:2.

tohu: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness

bohu: emptiness

tehom: deep, sea, abyss


2 Yet the earth was invisible and unformed, and darkness was over the abyss, and a divine wind was being carried along over the water. NETS Septuigent.

[Gen 1:2 ESV] 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.



If darkness was just the lack of light why did God separate it? Lack is not used in the text. Why add words that are not there?

[Gen 1:4 ESV] 4 And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness.

Darkness was and is something real.

[Eph 6:12 ASV] 12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual [hosts] of wickedness in the heavenly [places].

[2Pe 2:17 NIV] 17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.

[Jde 1:13 NIV] 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Jesus said:

[Mat 25:30 ESV] 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

"The powers of darkness are still part of the spiritual world - they don't become something else when they rebel against God. Disembodied believers are, by definition, also part of the spiritual world. So are God and Christ." ~ Michael S. Heiser Interview with Michael Heiser: The Unseen Realm

 

[Paleouss]

Thanks for your positive response. There are far and few at this forum. Everyone is out to derail you. Doesn't disciple mean learner?

God has promised that if I "cry out for discernment, And lift up [my] voice for understanding...Then will understand the fear of the Lord And find the knowledge of God." (Prov 2:3-5 [ ] are mine). One cannot continue to learn unless one opens oneself to being taught.


Peace to you

 

[Paleouss]

It clear that besides darkness and chaos, water is also there before day one of creation.

It seems to me that asserting that "darkness" in the Bible is common symbolism for sin and its affects can go without reasonable challenge (John 3:19-20, 1John 1:5-6,John 12:35, Job 10:20-22, Isa 9:2, etc). That assertion, however, does not necessitate that "darkness" in Gen 1:2 should be taken as such symbolism.

I might point out that the topic was Satan's fall. This darkness, as I understand this view, is symbolism for Satan's fall and his dominion in this world before Adam is then given dominion.

Regarding the argument that "Absence isn't a thing. It's the opposite of a thing, the lack of a thing". This arguement would have more affect if we could show that "darkness" in the Bible frequently represents absence. But to my knowledge, I cannot present any verses that support such a claim (only Aquinas' reasoning). So one is still left with the question of, where did the darkness come from? Is it "darkness" that is common symbolism in the Bible for sin and its affects? Or is it the absense of light before God creates light (Gen 1:3)?

It does need explaining, IMO, how there can be darkness before God creates anything. IMO, before God creates there is no thing but God. Not even an empty expanse. In other words, before the beginning there is not open, unused space, and God within that space. Even if this were not the case, wouldn't there be no darkness because that empty expanse is filled with the light of God (for God is light)?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I understand what you are saying, but is that what the text says? Does God just put words out for no reason? Does it say there was nothing? It does not but explains to us exactly what was there. The Spirit of God was not hovering over "nothing" but something serious was going on in 1:2.

tohu: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness

bohu: emptiness

tehom: deep, sea, abyss


2 Yet the earth was invisible and unformed, and darkness was over the abyss, and a divine wind was being carried along over the water. NETS Septuigent.

[Gen 1:2 ESV] 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.



If darkness was just the lack of light why did God separate it? Lack is not used in the text. Why add words that are not there?

[Gen 1:4 ESV] 4 And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness.

Darkness was and is something real.

[Eph 6:12 ASV] 12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual [hosts] of wickedness in the heavenly [places].

[2Pe 2:17 NIV] 17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.

[Jde 1:13 NIV] 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Jesus said:

[Mat 25:30 ESV] 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

"The powers of darkness are still part of the spiritual world - they don't become something else when they rebel against God. Disembodied believers are, by definition, also part of the spiritual world. So are God and Christ." ~ Michael S. Heiser Interview with Michael Heiser: The Unseen Realm

"The earth was a formless waste, and darkness was over the face of the abyss. And the Spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters" Is an example of how Scripture reflects the thought and language of Ancient Near East.

In the Ancient Near East, and this is as true of the ancient Israelites as it was for other Ancient Near Eastern people, it was a natural idea that order came from disorder; so the world was disordered and then became ordered. Here in Genesis ch. 1 we see the divinely inspired Israelite understanding of that: God did this, as the Creator. The phrase "darkness was over the surface of the abyss" is describing the primordial waters, the same waters which the Spirit of God hovered upon. It can also help us, as we read this text, that by "earth" we think instead "land", because the Hebrew word here is eretz, "land". There is ha-eretz, which is "down here" and there is ha-shamayim, which is "up there"; there is also the primordial waters, which in Ancient Near Eastern thought was both something viewed as real but also as representing disorder or chaos. There is only darkness here, because there is yet no light; the earth is a formless waste because it has not yet been given shape. Night and day have yet to be separated, the waters below and the waters above have not yet been separated, the dry earth has not yet been separated from the seas. So it is disordered, un-shapen, non-distinguished: God's creative actions in Genesis 1 are God creating, shaping, and forming the unshapen, formless earth and separating the waters to give a place for the sun, moon, stars, the birds and fish, and creeping and crawling beasts, and ultimately mankind to dwell. Where God will be worshiped by and in His creation.

The formlesness of the earth is the state and condition it is in; the darkness over the watery abyss is the state and condition the disordered primordial waters were in.

Again, when you make your bed in the morning, the "un-made" in an un-made bed is not itself a thing--it describes the condition, it describes the state, it describes the absence--the absence of a made bed. Order from disorder is something when previously there was nothing.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

To take it even further, "satan" is not a proper noun, even when capitalized in our English bibles. It's a job description. And it means, among other things, "adversary". I believe that is why Jesus called Peter "satan". I think he was actually saying, you are being adversarial to God's plan. There are lots of adversaries to God's plan in the bible. And they are all beings created by God. I honestly believe some of them were created specifically for that job. I at least believe it is possible. The older I get, the bigger the box I envision around the personality of God. If you get my drift.

In Acts 5:3 we see the word SATAN which means Adversary and is a MASCULINE Proper NOUN .

When looking at Isa 14:12 Lucifer had to FALL before Christ MADE earth and we do now see that the UNIVERSE is TRILLIONs of miles each way as scientist see , when mapping the Universe .

So the Heb words NATIONS is not talking about those o earth , but those in the UNIVERSE , which we as the BODY OF CHRIST will GOVERN and also GOVERN ANGELS , as written in 1 Cor 6:2 and 3 ,

dan p

dan p

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I find it perplexing that people confuse sacred or mythic time with profane time.

"Mythic time is the concept that the divine myths do not exist within any linear time, but rather exist in a special, generalized time which is eternal and always is."

Myths

The word mythos (μῦθος) can mean “word,” “conversation,” “narrative,” “speech,” “story,” “tale,” or “true narrative,&#8…

hellenicfaith.com

 

[Paul4JC]

I might point out that the topic was Satan's fall. This darkness, as I understand this view, is symbolism for Satan's fall and his dominion in this world before Adam is then given dominion.

So one is still left with the question of, where did the darkness come from?

Sure, Satans fall.

I don't see darkness as symbolism in the context, but rather a part of the characteristics or atributes of Satan: dark, chaotic, a void, turmultous, and abysmal. In the context of Hebrew 3-tier cosmology, it seems to me that the abysmal underworld is created by his fall.

[Jhn 1:5 NKJV] And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

 

[Paul4JC]

2822 [e] wə·ḥō·šeḵ וְחֹ֖שֶׁךְ and darkness Conj‑w | N‑ms 2822. choshek ►

choshek: darkness, obscurity​ Original Word: חשֶׁךְ Word Origin from chashak

2821. chashak ►

chashak: to be or grow dark​ Original Word: חָשַׁךְ

 

[Paleouss]

Sure, Satans fall.

Doing some research, I find Bullinger (1974) saying that the "literary text implies it in classical Hebrew parallelism." The overarching order, as I understand it, is Creation -- Chaos -- Cosmos.

Gen 1:1 is the heavens and earth that were. Creation (2Pet 3:6)
Gen 1:2 is its ruin. Chaos
Gen 1:3 is the heavens and earth as they are now. Cosmos (2Pet 3:7)

So a lot of weight is put on 2Pet 3:6-7. It seems to me anyway.

The overaching theme that this concept in Gen 1:1-Gen 1:3 falls into is the battle for "Kingdom".
Satan is called the "prince of this world" (John 12:31, John 14:30, John 16:11) and the god (small g) of this world (2Cor4:4). During the tempting of Jesus Satan claims "all this power will give thee, and the glory of them" (Luke 4:6). Referring to his claim of rule over "all the kindoms of the world" (Luke 4:5).

It seems that this view holds that the "anointed cherub" was first give dominion over the earth. Using verses such as Eze 28:13 as reference that the garden of Eden was given to Satan; "Every precious stone was your covering" (Eze 28:13). After the fall, there was "Chaos" that is represented in Gen 1:2. That turned the earth into a "wasteplace". Then God starts creating "order" from "Chaos".

Still digging...

 

[Paul4JC]

Doing some research, I find Bullinger (1974) saying that the "literary text implies it in classical Hebrew parallelism." The overarching order, as I understand it, is Creation -- Chaos -- Cosmos.

Gen 1:1 is the heavens and earth that were. Creation (2Pet 3:6)
Gen 1:2 is its ruin. Chaos
Gen 1:3 is the heavens and earth as they are now. Cosmos (2Pet 3:7)

So a lot of weight is put on 2Pet 3:6-7. It seems to me anyway.

The overaching theme that this concept in Gen 1:1-Gen 1:3 falls into is the battle for "Kingdom".
Satan is called the "prince of this world" (John 12:31, John 14:30, John 16:11) and the god (small g) of this world (2Cor4:4). During the tempting of Jesus Satan claims "all this power will give thee, and the glory of them" (Luke 4:6). Referring to his claim of rule over "all the kindoms of the world" (Luke 4:5).

It seems that this view holds that the "anointed cherub" was first give dominion over the earth. Using verses such as Eze 28:13 as reference that the garden of Eden was given to Satan; "Every precious stone was your covering" (Eze 28:13). After the fall, there was "Chaos" that is represented in Gen 1:2. That turned the earth into a "wasteplace". Then God starts creating "order" from "Chaos".

Still digging...

I would not go in that direction. You end up with theories like the gap theory and also the pre-adamite theory. I totally disagree with those. 2 Pet 3:7-8 is clearly talking of Noah's antediluvian world which was destroyed save the ark. One must compare scripture with scripture. Though I know these views are quite popular, to create a whoe other creation before creation without any real supporting texts is false doctrine. Both science and even many Christians seem to erase from history or minimize the antediluvian world. A world where Adam and his descendants lived 10 to 15 times our lifespans. There was only one creation and it's in Genesis chapters 1 and 2.

Yet something dark and void and chaotic in the deep happened right at creation's beginning in Gen 1:2, with the fall of Satan

​

8415. tehom ►​

​

Strong's Concordance Oiginal Word: תְּהוֹם Definition: deep, sea, abyss​

from huwm

1949. hum or him ►​

Strong's Concordance Original Word: הוּם Definition: to murmur, roar, defeat in battle​

Very interesting root word!

 

[Paleouss]

I would not go in that direction. You end up with theories like the gap theory and also the pre-adamite theory. I totally disagree with those.

I didn't think the doctrine I was researching was these theories you caution against. Although I see the implication. Thank you for the caution.

 

[RDKirk]

Revelation 12 maps the fall of Satan to the Church Age, or more closely to within Jesus' ministry.

Prior to that, we see Satan in heaven doing the work his name implies. In Job, in 1 Kings, he's in heaven clearly recognizing God's sovereignty, clearly having a place, clearly having a role. In Revelation 12, that's all over...he no longer has any place in heaven.

How many times did God have to kick Satan out of heaven to make it stick?

I think it was only once.

I think Isaiah did not speak of the past, but in prophesy of that moment in the future. Satan was the king of Babylon and the king of Tyre, and the king of all earthly kingdoms...he boasted of that to Jesus.

I think the trigger of Satan's fall was his temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, the instance we actually see him trying to gain a place above the most high in the created world, the heir, the first entity in the created realm, not the Father, but the Son. When Jesus said, "I saw Satan fall like lightning," I don't think He wasn't talking about the past, I think He was talking about His present in that time. Satan's fall was happening then.

 

[Paleouss]

Hi RDKirk,

I have not heard this view yet.

Prior to that, we see Satan in heaven doing the work his name implies. In Job, in 1 Kings, he's in heaven clearly recognizing God's sovereignty, clearly having a place, clearly having a role. In Revelation 12, that's all over...he no longer has any place in heaven.

What about Genesis 3? When Satan was a serpent and is cursed due to his decieving of Eve? Where/How does this fit in your theology?

Peace be to you