The faith vs. works debate is missing the point. We have a bigger problem.....

[Grip Docility]

Ummm...Gideon old buddy, ITS ONE OR THE OTHER NOT BOTH!!!!

One's the Horse, while the other is the Cart.

One is Salvation, the other is the work of (Romans 8:9) Alone.

One Takes us Home, the other is filthy rags, when bound to our flesh.

Two Horses don't pull the one cart.

 

[notreligus]

Once we understand and acknowledge that God Almighty chose that mankind would be reconciled to Him through His Son's perfect sacrifice and obedience on the cross there is nothing left to argue about. The only payment God would accept as a permanent payment was the Blood of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 7:
20 And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, 21 but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him:
“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
‘You are a priest forever.’”
22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

Hebrews 9:
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,5 then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption

The Law Demands a Payment
God's Grace Provided the Payment

 

[Grip Docility]

Once we understand and acknowledge that God Almighty chose that mankind would be reconciled to Him through His Son's perfect sacrifice and obedience on the cross there is nothing left to argue about. The only payment God would accept as a permanent payment was the Blood of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 7:
20 And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, 21 but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him:
“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
‘You are a priest forever.’”
22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

Hebrews 9:
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,5 then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption

The Law Demands a Payment
God's Grace Provided the Payment

Mind you, I see this as the foundation milk of the Gospel. I would dare say scripture explains that Christ accomplished much more than "Just This"... but I will say this... when we die, we go with Jesus... step 1... When we are resurrected into our promised bodies of Glory... step 2... we will then have our promised Bodies like Christ's as promised.

But, Carnal perfection isn't in the biblical cards, as Paul essentially calls these old bodies, bodies of death, destined for maggots.

Does Jesus free us from the bondage of crippling sin? Absolutely... in His time.

 

[Gideons300]

Yes that is exactly it. It takes a revelation from God for man to see how vile he is in that state, and the many times he has let the Saviour down, which will immediately cause the man to submit fully and accept the ruling of of God for EVERYTHING in his life, rather than clinging on to his pet loves and thoughts of self righteousness. Instead of thinking that God will deal with so and so one day, the man will see that it must be dealt with today.

Brother, there is not a shred of doubt in my heart that you have "lit your lamp". Your words are godly and wise, full of genuine humility. Thank you.

Satan has succeeding in , up til now, the belief that if we fully surrender, our lives will be boring, hard, joyless and what we have to give up in return still too precious to us.

Boy, we have swallowed a whopper of a lie, haven't we? Having joy and real true calming peace when everything, including our religious life, seems..... not peace, lol.... well, I can only testify of my own life, but I have been changed to such a point, I hardly recognize myself, and truthfully would not go back to the "old me" for anything.

You and I are early risers, so it seems, but praise God, every single true sheep WILL soon awaken, and light their lamps by reckoning their old man as DEAD. Until we do that we cannot walk in our new nature that hates sin and self rule. Thus we rob ourselves of progress as well as joy.

Regardless, we are destined to be the blessed generation of those who will awaken to His call, and we will light our lamps by finally confessing and believing that the old "us" is truly dead.

Those who remain in the church who ultimately are deemed tares, have not the Holy Spirit and will dig in their religious heels. This the great falling away.

We will have effectively reproduced the Pharisees and the true church, where every single saint can confess, without blinking:

"It is no more I that live, yet not I, but Christ now liveth in me."

My prayer is that every single reader here begins to feel a hunger for more..... more OF overcoming, more fruit, more of God in us. The FREE INDEED Jesus promised us. C'mon, guys, Doesn't it seem logical that what God termed "life more abundant" had to consist of more than just weekly church for two hours, maybe a little Bible reading, Christian radio? How about joy? Passion? Peace? VICTORY??

I hate to say it, and thank God for those who live their Christianity, but for most of us, we do not exactly display the Christ we say we love. Instead, more often than not, we protect ourselves from any conviction with a cheery "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven". Can I get an amen? LOL.

God is beginning to do something in our midst and no amount of our religious satisfaction with our Bible knowledge, church functions, volunteer activities will stand a chance from the avalanche of love and separation unto Him that we will witness with our own eyes, and even better,, experience in our very lives. .

I cannot even put into words the amazement of watching yourself begin to see fruits growing and old habits dying.
Sanctification IS a process, but it is a REAL process, and real result are PROMISED! REAL results.

Is it not obvious we are doing something wrong when we pretty much remain the same person. Oh, perhaps God has been able to chisel off a corner or two, but we are pretty much the same block of granite minus a few rough edged. ☺️

We have been blinded to the truth that our God really IS the potter, but we have missed it, Why? Because we refuse to get on the potters wheel and take our hands off of us. Is it any wonder we are still lumps of clay? LOL.

How blind we have been, trading our birthright.... to walk as overcomers, victorious over the world the flesh and the devil..... for a mess of religious pottage. Thank God He loves us even when we are quite satisfied and far from Him. He just wants back in. Knock. Knock.

Yes, even as messed up as we ALL are, we have kept alive the critical skeleton doctrinal truths.... just no overflowing LIFE.

The church was never prevailed against, but not by our efforts. I will not repeat what God thinks about us, LOL, but if you want to know if God is pleased with us, read Ezekiel 36:... what the heck, here it is. Do not tar and feather the messenger. ☺️

The skeleton has lasted nineteen hundred years. Do we not get it?? We still possess the DNA of the church on the day of Pentecost! Even though we are but a valley of dried out bones, splintered into divisions and denominations, God is not through with us. Heck, He is just now beginning! Glory!

We are about to witness the sinew and muscles come alive and finally God will breathe into those dry bones. When that happens? Welcome the the book of Acts part two, and unlike most sequels, the latter will be greater than the former.

Get ready to be amazed. The first drops of the true latter rain are beginning to fall. We are THE blessed generation. One with Christ. One with one another. Whoa. I have chills typing this.

Anyway, did not mean to ramble on like I do. Thank you for sharing, brother, we need to talk.

blessings,

Gideon

 

[Gideons300]

Mind you, I see this as the foundation milk of the Gospel. I would dare say scripture explains that Christ accomplished much more than "Just This"... but I will say this... when we die, we go with Jesus... step 1... When we are resurrected into our promised bodies of Glory... step 2... we will then have our promised Bodies like Christ's as promised.

But, Carnal perfection isn't in the biblical cards, as Paul essentially calls these old bodies, bodies of death, destined for maggots.

Does Jesus free us from the bondage of crippling sin? Absolutely... in His time.

The clock is about to strike midnight, LOL.

 

[Grip Docility]

The clock is about to strike midnight, LOL.

I mean this. I tested your Spirit and think some people are misunderstanding you. The Fruit of the Spirit you are displaying is actually all of them, right now.

You dislike the bickering that goes on and want it to stop. You are attempting to make a unity for both camps...

But, I know the humility that comes from True Sola Fide.... and I also know you grasp Paul's use of Anathema in Galatians.

My point is... Blessed are you, Peace Maker! My point is... I know the Fruit of Faith when I see it, and I don't DARE measure a persons salvation by it's presence or absence..., but the Jig is up.

We count it all loss, though we beat our bodies into submission, Just to know our Blessed Lord and Savior. I count all Skubala, but Jesus Christ and His work.

Sound familliar? I know those words are etched into your Soul that is grasped so very Deeply by Jesus.

All Love to you Brother.

 

[Robin Mauro]

I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.

Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?

I have my own views on the matter but in truth they are not found in either camp. My point in this post is not to delve into the debate again, but to ask a question I believe is far more significant.

Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.

Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.

This conflict forces us to assume either Paul or James were in error, and one had a "greater" revelation than the other. But think for a minute. If this were true, then the word of God is not totally true, and once that bridge is crossed, and we admit the Word of God has errors, then it is back on our shoulders to decide what is true and what is not. And that leads us right back to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

There must be a way to rectify this apparent contradiction.... and glory to God, there is!

Stay tuned for part two. I make this promise to you. If you will receive it, your walk with the Lord will be transformed.... and so will you!

blessings,

Gideon

We are not saved by works, but we also are not saved without them. That is because when we grasp what Jesus did for us, we want to be like him. We want to change. We want to be free from sin. Was it John who said some of Paul's words were-are difficult to understand? I used to struggle with this, then God asked me, what if he hadn't put the verses about works in there. I knew the answer immediately. Humans would use their salvation as an excuse to sin. And that is exactly what these verses are for. For people who claim to be saved and yet continue blatantly and unrepentently to sin. They are a warning. Don't use your salvat

 

[Robin Mauro]

We are not saved by works, but we also are not saved without them. That is because when we grasp what Jesus did for us, we want to be like him. We want to change. We want to be free from sin. Was it John who dmsaid some of Paul's words were-are difficult to understand? I used to struggle with this, then God asked me, what if he hadn't put the verses about works in there. I knew the answer immediately. Humans would use their salvation as an excuse to sin. And that is exactly what these verses ate for. For people who claim to be saved and yet continue blatantly and unrepentently to sin. They are a warning. Don't use your salvat

Oops, Don't know what happened.
Don't use your salvation as an excuse to sin. If you do, be afraid. The fear of the Lord is still with us. It keeps us on the right path.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."
So faith and works do go together. They are like two sides of the same coin. You cannot have one without the other.

 

[Gideons300]

@Gideons300

I believe you to be sincere. I believe you to be humble. I am convicted to make this statement. I am unique in my theological premises as I scripturally contest the Augustine premise of "Original Sin" and see Original Sin as biblically being the opening of "Pandora's Box"... so to speak... at the deception of the evil one, imposed upon Eve. Paul states this, incidentally.

I have attempted to bring this out with a group of individuals once, but the aspect of humanity beings enabled, by God, from Eden to Now, to do Good or Evil weighed too heavy on many people's pride. One of the individual's became enormously angry at me whenever I confessed myself to be a sinful man... because in doctrine I recognize sin is my fault... though sin is powerless to be charged against me because of Christ's propitiation. I know Christ is not a promoter of sin and I know Grace isn't a licence to sin. At my stage in life, I also see myself as in perpetual need of Christ's Grace and will most likely see this as the case until my death.

My conviction in this teaching is that you are offering biblical hope to people in bondage of crippling sin.

My conviction is also that some people are not humble enough to understand what you are actually teaching.

You maintain that you are sinful, but freed from the draw of sin as Christ Promised. This is my understanding, anyhow... please correct me if I'm wrong.

Do you support people who complicate Salvation by Works? I will venture you do not.

You are binding all that you say to faith alone and the work of the Holy Spirit Alone... Am I correct?

All Love to you in Jesus Christ,

- Grip

Absolutely! By faith alone. BUT.... and this is huge, we have only believed half of what we supposed to believe. Oh, we have the death and resurrection of Jesus down pat and that in spades.

But we have never ever believed that WE really died, the old self centered us. Religious but not ALIVE. Do we truly believe what we say we believe when we say along with Paul that we are crucified with Christ and that it is no longer us that live but Christ who now lives IN us!? LOL! Really?

We are about to be awakened to what our birthright really is.... Christ IN us... the new man!

As to your thoughts about what I think of myself. You asked if I thought I was a sinful man. What I am about to share will get some tar bubbling, I suspect, but I WAS a sinner with a fallen nature. Oh, I still possess a fleshly body, but a fleshly nature? Nope. It is no more I that live.

Am I anything special? Ha. The old me makes me hang my head in shame. But listen, whether you are ready to believe it and put the new man on by an audacious act of faith that our God cannot lie, or resigned to running another wilderness lap and to stay the course for a while, I make this statement as truth. You will, my dead friend, finally come into agreement with your God, and discover the joy of overcoming all.... ALL.... satan tempts you with. You WILL bear much fruit. MUCH.

And agree with what? That we are dead and Christ now lives... NOW lives in us!

We have all been trying to die to self. How is that battle going? LOL. Self will not crucify self.... ever. Our battle is NOT with sin. Sin has no more authority over us. Our battle is not with self. Self died when Christ died. Like for real.

Our battle is simply with unbelief. We have given place to the devil to make us think we some grow from old man to new man. No way, Jose. We put off the old man like a filthy rag, and we slide into our new nature, young and prone to stumble a bit at first, but praise God, to our amazement, as we continue to fight our good fight of faith, holding up as our shield the truth of who we NOW are, we begin to be transformed into His image from glory to glory.

To what end? That we be established in the faith, unshakeable. Theoretically can we sin? Yes. Will we. No.

Glory!

Blessings,

Gids

 

[Gideons300]

Is this putting on Messiah?

Ding. Ding. Ding. We have a winner! ☺️

 

[Gideons300]

Ding. Ding. Ding. We have a winner! ☺️

And make no provision for the flesh ( to exist), to fulfill the lusts thereof.

How do we walk as overcomers? We combine the blood of the lamb with the Word of OUR testimony. That, guys, is what lighting our lamp consists of.

Christ IS our armor, living through us. We finally become one with Him, and then, miraculously, we become one with one another. Are we not told to 'put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ'? That is the reckoning of faith of which I speak.

Blessings to all,

Gids

 

[Grip Docility]

And make no provision for the flesh ( to exist), to fulfill the lusts thereof.

How do we walk as overcomers? We combine the blood of the lamb with the Word of OUR testimony. That, guys, is what lighting our lamp consists of.

Christ IS our armor, living through us. We finally become one with Him, and then, miraculously, we become one with one another. Are we not told to 'put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ'? That is the reckoning of faith of which I speak.

Blessings to all,

Gids

140f

(Galatians 3:26-27)(Matthew 5:48)(Ephesians 6:10-18)

 

[Grip Docility]

And make no provision for the flesh ( to exist), to fulfill the lusts thereof.

How do we walk as overcomers? We combine the blood of the lamb with the Word of OUR testimony. That, guys, is what lighting our lamp consists of.

Christ IS our armor, living through us. We finally become one with Him, and then, miraculously, we become one with one another. Are we not told to 'put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ'? That is the reckoning of faith of which I speak.

Blessings to all,

Gids

Wait! May I ask your Exegesis of Romans 6:10-18 as you read it, with the Holy Spirit?

Spoiler

 

[Christopher0121]

I've been on both sides of the debate. I was raised in a very strict and legalistic Pentecostal tradition. When I left, I went whole hog into faith alone grace teaching. However, as with the legalism teaching, I still faced the same old weaknesses, temptations, and sinful inclinations. But then I discovered something that revolutionized my spiritual walk with Christ. It came as a result of soaking prayer. I struggle with PTSD and the quiet time of meditative surrender to the Spirit of God brings me much peace. It was during one of these soaking prayers that the LORD impressed upon me this passage...

John 15:1-11 English Standard Version (ESV)
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.​

Then the Holy Spirit spoke to me in a still small voice, an impression if you will, saying...

"Is the vine and its branches one organism or many organisms?"

​

I said...

"One organism LORD."​

And that's when He said...

"Know that thou art likewise."
​

Since then I've realized that we are one with the Lord in spirit through the abiding Holy Spirit. We are one spirit with the Lord. Branches of the true vine, living extensions of Jesus Himself.

As I approached my spiritual walk knowing that He and I are one, that He lives in me, my spiritual walk has truly become an adventure. I sense when the Lord truly wishes to speak and work through me. And in deep soaking and prayer sessions I've spoken with the Lord and this is one of the things I felt Him speak to me regarding division and holiness...

My child, I will tell you why you are all so divided. It is your religions. They are not of me. Each of you has a list. A list of do’s and don’ts. And each of you think that I authored your respective lists. Baptists have their lists, Catholics have their lists, Pentecostals have their lists, Methodists have their lists, Lutherans have their lists, Charismatics have their lists, Messianics have their lists, Episcopals have their lists… and each list is different. I’m not a God of confusion. Each list is a doctrine of man. Some say you must keep the Ten Commandments that I delivered to Moses to give to my people. Some of you expand upon these and add feast days, Sabbaths, dietary regulations, linguistic nuances of eccentricity wherein you think you are shown to be wise, yet you are looking foolish in your conceits. You want to be so much like my people… but not like me. You fail to realize… I’m the eternal, the constant, the source; the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning, the ending, the all in all, the great I AM that I AM… I’m not Catholic, Protestant, or Evangelical… neither am I Jewish. I’m GOD. Still some of you have codified my teachings into a strict body of church law in which you seek to please me by changing your “behavior”… but not your “being”. Then some of you codified the methods with which I addressed issues in Israel or the first generation of churches... making them “commandments” instead of seeing the spirit behind the reasoning. A reasoning that endures in any context, be it time or culture. Then you added historical traditions established by various religious leaders and founders. You codified congregational structures, financial models, added liturgies, added dietary regulations, added special days of worship, added dress codes, even added prohibitions on both men and women I never required. Each of you has these LISTS! Stop trying to please me by living these man-made lists! They divide you because you measure yourselves against one another based on your respective man-made LISTS. Ask the Pharisee to list exactly what must be done to please me! Let him present his list! And suddenly you’ll see another Pharisee argue against something on the first Pharisee’s list, or seek to add something from their list to it!!! Eventually they are all squabbling over which commandments on which list has to be obeyed and which do not! Why? It is because the spirit of legalism leaves you awash on the sea of subjective personal interpretation wherein one mans interpretation is just as good as another's. Yet you cling to these lists because you think they make you “holy”. These lists don’t make you holy. What makes you Holy is… ME.

You see… I am the Vine, and you are the branches. You are called to be living extensions of me… not living extensions of the ancient nation of Israel, your given church, or your given denomination. You are called to be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ… not the image and likeness of your respective church, movement, or denomination. When you live by their LISTS… you are becoming like them… NOT like me.

And so you ask… How do I become like you? I, the LORD, shall answer you this day. He who has an ear, let him hear!!!...

The answer is in the very nature of my being my beloved. You see… I AM… love. When you are loving, gracious, forgiving, kind, compassionate, patient, long suffering, temperate, and giving… you are being like Me. Do you wish to fulfill “the law”??? DON’T strive live by it. Find its core. Find its essence. Find my reason for delivering said laws in their given contexts. You’ll discover that it is because I was teaching many different things… but the core was and always has been… MY love. Love me my child. Love me with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And demonstrate your love for me by loving others as yourself. If you do this you will have fulfilled the essence of MY law. If there is any other commandment ever brought to your attention, know this… it is fulfilled in this single statement, “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” In this you do no wrong… and in loving… you become like me… the one who is love itself.

So be not swayed by their LISTS. Do not be deceived by their vain and eccentric verbiage. Do not emulate a nation, a denomination, or a church. Instead… emulate Me and you will find rest for your souls. Love Me with all your being… and show me that you love Me by loving others as yourself. The only commandment I give you is this… LOVE. For love will not murder, steal, covet, slander, commit adultery, rage, revenge, or blaspheme. Love will set every day aside as holy… because love seeks to give absolute devotion every single day without end.

I am not impressed with your LISTS. First, your lists all differ. And second, you don’t even keep your own lists perfectly! This makes you hypocrites of the worst kind. Why do you do this to yourselves??? Do you really think I’m IMPRESSED by anything you do? Am I impressed by cherry picked LISTS of commandments you’ve chosen to embrace… at the expense of others that you chose not to? Do you really think I’m going to open the books and judge you by each of your respective lists???! Will I judge according to dress code, hairstyles, feast days, and your labored mispronunciations of an ancient language??? Will I praise you for acting Jewish… even though if the truth were to be told… you don’t have a single drop of Hebrew blood in your body??? No. When you stand before Me… I will only seek to know two things:

Did you love me with all your being?
Did you seek to show your love for me by loving others as yourself?

And you’ll then begin to see how your LISTS hindered you from loving your neighbors. You will see how your lusts, adulteries, thievery, slander, etc. are not rooted in failing to obey a rule on a LIST… but in your failure to LOVE. For love does no harm to the object of its affection.

So I leave you with this… become like Me. Be conformed into the very image and likeness of Jesus Christ, my beloved Son. And in this you will find true holiness. In this you will find the law of liberty… the law of LOVE. You will have discovered… ME.​

 

[fhansen]

We have been told that because we have sin natures, we will never be able to always obey. Did God forget that part when He made those amazing promises? LOL.

Yes! The promises in Jer 31 and Ez 36 are what brought me back to the Christian faith. Because they told me that God would do what I couldn’t accomplish in myself. That just made too much sense. I wouldn’t have bothered returning to the faith if not for that in fact. And it was like a revelation-I hadn’t heard it before, until I really began to study church teaching past and present that is. It somehow gets buried tho, in the all-too-human tendency for legalistic or mechanical “obedience”. But this is the very thing that God wants to move us away from. And it’s not just one or a couple denominations- it’s the human heart that doesn’t change easily. It’s about coming to truly know God, of His incomparable goodness and trustworthiness and unfathomable love for humankind. It’s about overcoming the default image of God we have, of one Who’s distant, aloof in His superiority, angry with man and “jealous of His prerogatives” as one teaching I’m familiar with puts it. This is the “distorted image of God” that man conceived of at the Fall. It’s the reason man ‘hates Him without reason'. Enmity came from man, not God.

IMO the idea that man inherited a “sin nature” from Adam isn’t quite correct and leads to some confusion. Fallen man’s primary “fault”, the chief aspect of his “death” or the state known as "Original Sin" is separation from God. Man was made for communion with God and he’s lost, dead, wounded, corrupted without it. He cannot maintain moral integrity or self-control without this vital relationship. And that’s exactly the world we find ourselves in now, one without control, where man's will reigns for all practical purposes. Jesus came to reconcile man with God when the time was ripe in human history, and when the time is ripe in our own personal histories as we’re ready, by revealing His true “face” to an extent that was never done before, so that we may know Him.

“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:3

When man receives this "knowledge of God", this revelation, he can come to believe. And that faith is the doorway back to relationship with Him, ‘Apart from Whom we can do nothing’, John 15:5. That re-established relationship itself, the relationship that Adam shattered, is the primary aspect of man’s justice, because from there God indwells and does a work in us -of justifying, transforming us into His own image.

The New Covenant is about change, not merely forgiveness. It’s about God imparting righteousness to man, His new creation, not merely imputing it. And then we’re expected to walk in that righteousness, and to grow in it as He continues to work in us and we with Him. God didn’t make man to be a sinner; His plan of redemption is not to leave us that way. His grace is meant to draw man from sin and into increasing justice/righteousness. For our good. God always wants the best for man. This is not works-righteousness; this is God-righteousness, the “right righteousness”, finally, that man was always intended to have. In this there is both a promise and a command. Man is commanded and obligated to love, to put it succinctly. But he needs God in order to pull that off. That’s what the New Covenant is about. That’s all man needs to know, just how much he desperately needs God. Our part is to go along for the ride-and stick with it, doing our part- as He wills.

 

[Gideons300]

I will give you my thoughts. What the heck is exegesis?
Just playing but just so you know, I am not much for our complex religious terminology.

Here are the verses:

"For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 6:10-18

Amazing verses. In these 9 verses are hidden all we have missed and as our eyes are opened to what God is most plainly telling us, and we embrace them as FACT, regardless of how we have walked, we will find is is always, always, always "according to our faith be it unto us.".

We will finally understand why, if we are truly new creatures, if sin really has no authority of us any longer, why we are not walking in newness of life.... overcomers, victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil.

And why? "but it did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

We are about to believe our God.

When I received my revelation, now 12 years ago, God knew full well what a miserable defeated man I was. I had tried everything to please God, and all I had to show for it was failure...one after another.

Had I tried for 38 years? LOL. With everything I had. That night I cried out to God, because I was the poster boy for Romans 7 and had no more things to try. i wanted to die.

Well, God obliged me, LOL. When He appeared in goldan blinding light, it put me on my face, He spoke to me... yes... audibly.

"For this, my son, I am well pleased with you."

Say what? Pleased with a man so addicted to porn he could not go a day without giving in? Pleased with a man who was angry at the church for not showing me hoe to walk free indeed as Jesus promised? Like Paul, I was a wretch of a man.

I had longed for 38 years as a Christian to feel my God was actually pleased with me and .....crickets. Npw, now when I come to Him fully defeated, with no strength, no hope to ever see improvement, ready to give up, now He tells me He is pleased with me?? it made zero sense.

But He spoke again and one word explained everything.

"I knew you could not live the life I have for you, but you did not yet know it. Yet. I finally knew it. I had finally come to the place where I had no strength, no confidence in my flesh. That is all God wanted. To fully give up.

And the scriptures back this up.

"...and to them who have no strength, He increases might."

and

"He who enters his rest has ceased from his own works, even as God did from His."

God was not finished. He asked me a question.

"In all your efforts to try to please me, to die to self, to defeat sin in your walk, to bear spiritual fruits, did you ever do what I told you to do through Paul?"

He did not wait for me to answer. Probably because He would have a hard time understanding me, with me crying and overwhelmed as I was, lol. He then simply poured light into me so I could clearly see... and boy did I!

Paul tells us in Romans 6 that there are two facts we must know.

1) When Christ died, so did our old carnal nature. The old us died. We are dead.

2) When Christ rose again to newness of life, so DID we. We are new creatures.

But it was that darned next verse that had been hidden from my eyes. Knowing these things, he then instructs us to DO something!

This is the key verse. Everything balances on it.

"Therefore, reckon yourselves dead to sin, and alive unto God."

My jaw dropped. A serious Christian for almost four decades. I have chapters 6-8 memorized, lol. But never... never had I seen what Paul plainly told me to do, told you to do. I had never laid claim to what I said I believed was true. I had never put off my old man by faith and put on my new man.

What did I do? I spoke! Out loud! LOUDLY out loud. Loud enough for every demon in hell to hear me. Loud enough for every saint and angel in Heaven to hear me. But most importantly, loud enough for my own ears to hear the truth. truth that had been true since the day I was born again.

I confessed who I was not. I am not that same old worm of a sinner. I was, but no more. I confessed who I was, a new creature in Christ. An overcomer, victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil. I confessed that it was no longer me but Christ who now lived in me, and I yielded myself to God in a way I had never done before..... as one who is alive from the dead.

It has now been 12 years since that amazing night. I have learned so much, and yet have so much to learn. I have been changed so much, but still have far more to go. It has been lonely as God leads me, save for a few precious brothers and sisters.

I will sum this up before all the readers fall asleep. What I share works. No matter how weak, no matter how addicted to sin, you are a perfect candidate for having your feet planted on the highway of holiness.

This amazing walk is for the weakest to the strongest, and in that order, lol.

How was my exegesis? ☺️

blessings,

Gideon

 

[Grip Docility]

I will give you my thoughts. What the heck is exegesis?
Just playing but just so you know, I am not much for our complex religious terminology.

Here are the verses:

"For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 6:10-18

Amazing verses. In these 9 verses are hidden all we have missed and as our eyes are opened to what God is most plainly telling us, and we embrace them as FACT, regardless of how we have walked, we will find is is always, always, always "according to our faith be it unto us.".

We will finally understand why, if we are truly new creatures, if sin really has no authority of us any longer, why we are not walking in newness of life.... overcomers, victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil.

And why? "but it did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

We are about to believe our God.

When I received my revelation, now 12 years ago, God knew full well what a miserable defeated man I was. I had tried everything to please God, and all I had to show for it was failure...one after another.

Had I tried for 38 years? LOL. With everything I had. That night I cried out to God, because I was the poster boy for Romans 7 and had no more things to try. i wanted to die.

Well, God obliged me, LOL. When He appeared in goldan blinding light, it put me on my face, He spoke to me... yes... audibly.

"For this, my son, I am well pleased with you."

Say what? Pleased with a man so addicted to porn he could not go a day without giving in? Pleased with a man who was angry at the church for not showing me hoe to walk free indeed as Jesus promised? Like Paul, I was a wretch of a man.

I had longed for 38 years as a Christian to feel my God was actually pleased with me and .....crickets. Npw, now when I come to Him fully defeated, with no strength, no hope to ever see improvement, ready to give up, now He tells me He is pleased with me?? it made zero sense.

But He spoke again and one word explained everything.

"I knew you could not live the life I have for you, but you did not yet know it. Yet. I finally knew it. I had finally come to the place where I had no strength, no confidence in my flesh. That is all God wanted. To fully give up.

And the scriptures back this up.

"...and to them who have no strength, He increases might."

and

"He who enters his rest has ceased from his own works, even as God did from His."

God was not finished. He asked me a question.

"In all your efforts to try to please me, to die to self, to defeat sin in your walk, to bear spiritual fruits, did you ever do what I told you to do through Paul?"

He did not wait for me to answer. Probably because He would have a hard time understanding me, with me crying and overwhelmed as I was, lol. He then simply poured light into me so I could clearly see... and boy did I!

Paul tells us in Romans 6 that there are two facts we must know.

1) When Christ died, so did our old carnal nature. The old us died. We are dead.

2) When Christ rose again to newness of life, so DID we. We are new creatures.

But it was that darned next verse that had been hidden from my eyes. Knowing these things, he then instructs us to DO something!

This is the key verse. Everything balances on it.

"Therefore, reckon yourselves dead to sin, and alive unto God."

My jaw dropped. A serious Christian for almost four decades. I have chapters 6-8 memorized, lol. But never... never had I seen what Paul plainly told me to do, told you to do. I had never laid claim to what I said I believed was true. I had never put off my old man by faith and put on my new man.

What did I do? I spoke! Out loud! LOUDLY out loud. Loud enough for every demon in hell to hear me. Loud enough for every saint and angel in Heaven to hear me. But most importantly, loud enough for my own ears to hear the truth. truth that had been true since the day I was born again.

I confessed who I was not. I am not that same old worm of a sinner. I was, but no more. I confessed who I was, a new creature in Christ. An overcomer, victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil. I confessed that it was no longer me but Christ who now lived in me, and I yielded myself to God in a way I had never done before..... as one who is alive from the dead.

It has now been 12 years since that amazing night. I have learned so much, and yet have so much to learn. I have been changed so much, but still have far more to go. It has been lonely as God leads me, save for a few precious brothers and sisters.

I will sum this up before all the readers fall asleep. What I share works. No matter how weak, no matter how addicted to sin, you are a perfect candidate for having your feet planted on the highway of holiness.

This amazing walk is for the weakest to the strongest, and in that order, lol.

How was my exegesis? ☺️

blessings,

Gideon

Brother of Mature Faith,

This is spiritual food for the soul! I have read what you have written and it encourages me. I gotta be honest, old Lu is probably REALLY mad you gave this testimony!

I have followed your thread with anticipation to read this! I quote it so little lately, and yet that Armor is so very precious! We don't just wear it as His Cloak, but it IS our Armor and Gospel Equipment!

I took the time to read every word you wrote and I didn't resist a single one!

Humility! You have found True Humility in him. This being said... I'll stop being so positive about your writing now, go get the Tar and Feathers, so your hat will keep fitting.

Sincerely! This is a read that is full of Gospel Faith, Hope and Love!

All Faith, Hope and Above ALL LOVE to you from The Origin of all wonderful things, such as these!

 

[Alithis]

@Gideons300

I believe you to be sincere. I believe you to be humble. I am convicted to make this statement. I am unique in my theological premises as I scripturally contest the Augustine premise of "Original Sin" and see Original Sin as biblically being the opening of "Pandora's Box"... so to speak... at the deception of the evil one, imposed upon Eve. Paul states this, incidentally.

I have attempted to bring this out with a group of individuals once, but the aspect of humanity beings enabled, by God, from Eden to Now, to do Good or Evil weighed too heavy on many people's pride. One of the individual's became enormously angry at me whenever I confessed myself to be a sinful man... because in doctrine I recognize sin is my fault... though sin is powerless to be charged against me because of Christ's propitiation. I know Christ is not a promoter of sin and I know Grace isn't a licence to sin. At my stage in life, I also see myself as in perpetual need of Christ's Grace and will most likely see this as the case until my death.

My conviction in this teaching is that you are offering biblical hope to people in bondage of crippling sin.

My conviction is also that some people are not humble enough to understand what you are actually teaching.

You maintain that you are sinful, but freed from the draw of sin as Christ Promised. This is my understanding, anyhow... please correct me if I'm wrong.

Do you support people who complicate Salvation by Works? I will venture you do not.

You are binding all that you say to faith alone and the work of the Holy Spirit Alone... Am I correct?

All Love to you in Jesus Christ,

- Grip

Bondage past tense.
Not present not ongoing.

 

[Grip Docility]

Bondage past tense.
Not present not ongoing.

Sin has no hold over the True Believer, in the sense of CONDEMATION. As for pain of the flesh... Romans 7 and 2 Corinthians 12... each man awaits God's timing.

The condemnation is gone. The Old Man is Dead. But the flesh is Secondary to the work the (Romans 8:9) does with our Soul.

I Love the way you wrote this, as an overcomer. Don't be dismayed if you see me write as I do. I do so for the reason of providing hope to those that are still overcome by the Law of Sin and Death, that are too fearful to Surrender.

I do love what you've said, though, and see the hope and necessity of it, as well.

 

[fhansen]

"Therefore, reckon yourselves dead to sin, and alive unto God."

My jaw dropped. A serious Christian for almost four decades. I have chapters 6-8 memorized, lol. But never... never had I seen what Paul plainly told me to do, told you to do. I had never laid claim to what I said I believed was true. I had never put off my old man by faith and put on my new man.

I think a major problem is when people take that verse figuratively, to mean to see oneself dead to sin without necessarily being dead to sin, without recognizing that this is exactly what God wants to accomplish in us-and is capable of accomplishing in us. Otherwise faith can become a sort of license to remain in sin, or "freedom" from overcoming its slavery-sort of ironic.

How was my exegesis? ☺️

Great in my humble opinion. Sounds like you're living a right exegesis, not just exegeting it. And telling us about it.