The existence Satan

[BobRyan]

But as you have rightfully stated, ALL must be tested against Scripture....that includes that which is not included in Scripture but is claimed to have been delivered by God. So if someone says God showed them something, told them something, then it had best align with Scripture, anything outside of that is by definition not Biblical.

And we stray further from the topic

As with Paul in Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to see IF those things were so" --

So no matter if you are talking about Agabus telling Paul he would be put in prison or if you are talking about the book of Revelation -- they were all 'tested' -- "Sola Scriptura" to see if the doctrine they taught contradicted the Bible - including that which they claimed had come to them as per divine revelation.

 

[BobRyan]

Notice Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden, which was a place between heaven and the earth

No... it was on earth. Notice how Moses describes its landmarks... on earth.

 

[BobRyan]

Is 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Ezek 28
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 12

3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.


5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

The Angel, Michael
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,

“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

 

[Berean777]

No... it was on earth. Notice how Moses describes its landmarks... on earth.

I agree it was on earth. What I meant to say, that it was a place between heaven and the fallen earth that we have come to know. The Garden had no corruption and the laws of thermodynamics were not yet in motion, so time was in stasis. Yes same terra firma, but completely different life compared to ours right now.

 

[Willtor]

We don't know what the tree of life was, so it was not redundant otherwise God would not have said.



What ever the tree of life was, it was based in the Garden and it was required for Utopia to stay Utopia.

In fact if you read the New Testament the tree of life is the Living Vine, Christ Jesus and we are told to eat of him freely. Notice since Adam and Eve were banned from eating from the tree of life, when God saw it fit, he sent the tree of life into the world. That is why Jesus said....

I know exactly what the Tree of Life was. That's not the point. The point is that if it is an historical account and if they were immortal, it was redundant.

 

[Berean777]

I know exactly what the Tree of Life was. That's not the point. The point is that if it is an historical account and if they were immortal, it was redundant.

Why would that be? I don't understand your point, could you please elaborate further on why you believe that the tree of life was redundant and if they weren't immortal as youi are implying, then what function would the tree of life had.

 

[Willtor]

Why would that be? I don't understand your point, could you please elaborate further on why you believe that the tree of life was redundant and if they weren't immortal as youi are implying, then what function would the tree of life had.

Sure. So, there's this Tree of Life in the garden. By its name, one would suspect that it was there to bestow immortality. But if they're already immortal, they don't need it. It's redundant. In fact, their mortality is achieved by restricting access to it. But if God makes them mortal by restricting access to the Tree of Life, they were never naturally immortal -- only, they had ever access to immortality through the Tree of Life.

All that said, the Tree of Life is a figure for the Word. It isn't a literal tree.

 

[Berean777]

Sure. So, there's this Tree of Life in the garden. By its name, one would suspect that it was there to bestow immortality. But if they're already immortal, they don't need it. It's redundant. In fact, their mortality is achieved by restricting access to it. But if God makes them mortal by restricting access to the Tree of Life, they were never naturally immortal -- only, they had ever access to immortality through the Tree of Life.

All that said, the Tree of Life is a figure for the Word. It isn't a literal tree.

Adam and Eve were made from the dirt of the earth, for they were terrestrial beings. The possibility of mortality within the physical context is described eloquently by God, by the underlying pain and the fact that they were to return to dust.

So Adam and Eve were not created immortals and were in need of the tree of life for their immortality. The tree of life may have been a metaphor for the very utopian Garden that prevented the laws of thermodynamics from taking place. Once they were kicked out of the Garden, then the tree of life was inaccessible to the mortals and so time kicked in and they started to age and then eventually die.

 

[Willtor]

Adam and Eve were made from the dirt of the earth, for they were terrestrial beings. The possibility of mortality within the physical context is described eloquently by God, by the underlying pain and the fact that they were to return to dust.

So Adam and Eve were not created immortals and were in need of the tree of life for their immortality. The tree of life may have been a metaphor for the very utopian Garden that prevented the laws of thermodynamics from taking place. Once they were kicked out of the Garden, then the tree of life was inaccessible to the mortals and so time kicked in and they started to age and then eventually die.

Nobody was thinking about thermodynamics when this was written. We are not the first generation to "figure out the code" and access certain special knowledge of God's revelation.

 

[Berean777]

Nobody was thinking about thermodynamics when this was written. We are not the first generation to "figure out the code" and access certain special knowledge of God's revelation.

Neither pain from child birth or physical death ever crossed Adam's and Eve's minds when they were in the Garden. In this regard if mortality was there all along in the Garden, why would God make it know to them only after the fall?

 

[Berean777]

The days of creation stop on the seventh day, where God is said to have rested. If we consider after the fall, the same author starts to chronologically mention relations and how long they lived until. The ages of people from Adam downwards started to be documented and time had relevance to the author, however before the fall, there were no ages or lapsing of time mentioned and neither implied.

For example the same author describes when people are getting older and yet before the fall there is no mention of time or even days lapsing. It seems time was irrelevant to the author, even if he didn't comprehend the laws of thermodynamics.

 

[Willtor]

Neither pain from child birth or physical death ever crossed Adam's and Eve's minds when they were in the Garden. In this regard if mortality was there all along in the Garden, why would God make it know to them only after the fall?

I'm not going to speculate as to what crossed Adam and Eve's minds. But, as you yourself observe: "So Adam and Eve were not created immortals and were in need of the tree of life for their immortality."

 

[BobRyan]

So the presumption that Adam and Eve had 100s of children whilst in the Garden, in which all sinned because of the actions of Adam and Eve is totally unfounded, because there were no other people except Adam and Eve.

Otherwise you would have immortal men running around the Garden like gods doing sexual activities like Sodom.

Agreed. They were no longer in the Garden once they sinned - because they were kicked out of that garden and an angel stationed at the entrance to the garden to prevent people from going back in.

 

[BobRyan]

That's a wall of text. I'm only going to address the two core points I was making:



They eventually died, physically, but not the day they ate of that tree, as God had said. Likewise, the Tree of Life was totally redundant to the garden if they had been physically immortal before eating of the other tree. It's part in the story is confusing at best if it wasn't there to sustain their lives. In fact, even the name is nonsensical in a world of immortality.

they were not immortal - rather they had unending life as long as they had access to the tree of life.. Once deprived of that access - their 900+ year life clock began ticking.

 

[Berean777]

I'm not going to speculate as to what crossed Adam and Eve's minds. But, as you yourself observe: "So Adam and Eve were not created immortals and were in need of the tree of life for their immortality."

Yes, we don't know if the tree was something that was a literal tree or the fact that their sanctuary in the Garden gave them access to the tree of life, which metaphorically pointed to immortality. If they stayed in the Garden they would not die.

 

[Berean777]

they were not immortal - rather they had unending life as long as they had access to the tree of life.. Once deprived of that access - their 900+ year life clock began ticking.

Well said.

 

[Berean777]

Agreed. They were no longer in the Garden once they sinned - because they were kicked out of that garden and an angel stationed at the entrance to the garden to prevent people from going back in.

Yes.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, we don't know if the tree was something that was a literal tree or the fact that their sanctuary in the Garden have them access to the tree of live l ode which metaphorically pointed to immortality. If they stayed in the Garden they would not die.

They were literal, the trees where literal, the garden was literal - their fall into sin - literal, God is literal, Creation week literal, Christ literally died on the cross to save literal mankind. ... All of that.

 

[Berean777]

They were literal, the trees where literal, the garden was literal - their fall into sin - literal, God is literal, Creation week literal, Christ literally died on the cross to save literal mankind. ... All of that.

Yes, yes, yes and yes.

The function of immortality was dependent on the tree of life, whether the tree was a literal tree that they ate from literally or the literal Garden sanctuary itself is inconsequential.

The Creation days were literal 24 hour days, wether they were 24 hours or 1000s years compared to our time today is inconsequential. Time in space can be so vast that in a high gravitational nexus you have light virtually staying still and 1 second there is like a 1000 years in our environment. After all God stretched the time and space continuum and to presume that the time space continuum was the same during the six day creation, as compared to ours today, is without evidence, because the hour then could have been a 1000 years, I mean why not!