The existence Satan

[BobRyan]

Also look at the possibility that Satan fell when he caused man to fall. We are given no "time" as to when Satan rebelled against God...but leading man from God's path is a sure fire example of rebellion.

Also something to note is that Satan did have access to heaven before Christ. But it apparently is not open access, any time we see Satan in heaven, it is because he was summoned.

In Job 1 and 2 - Satan has access to some council in heaven - but in Rev 12 we find that after the cross Satan is restricted to earth.

In Rev 12 Satan is called the "Serpent of old" -- is already Satan when he tempts Eve at the tree of knowledge in Gen 2.

He and his angels fell before the creation of this world.

 

[brotherjerry]

In Job 1 and 2 - Satan has access to some council in heaven - but in Rev 12 we find that after the cross Satan is restricted to earth.

In Rev 12 Satan is called the "Serpent of old" -- is already Satan when he tempts Eve at the tree of knowledge in Gen 2.

He and his angels fell before the creation of this world.

Just because he was called Serpent of old does not mean he was the serpent before the garden..that could be a reference to being the serpent of the old stories of the creation. We get no indication of when he actually fell in the Bible.

Problem you have is that if you take the punishment of the serpent in Gen 3 as to punish a creature and turn it into a snake to slither on the ground, then Rev 12 has issues in taking the reference of Satan and the serpent of old being the serpent in Gen 3. Because if all God did in Gen 3 was punish a creature, then it was not Satan who tempted Eve, but just some creature. You could say that Satan possessed the serpent and was speaking for it. But then why would God punish something that did not have any control over it and not punish Satan for causing doing the tempting?

It does fit that Satan's rebellion was causing man to fall. That puts the punishment of the serpent in Gen 3 as punishment of Satan and that casting down of Satan from heaven. Eating dust, as in hell being in the earth, emnity between Satan and the woman and her seed. It also fits with Satan being that serpent of old.

Also think of this..if Satan had already fallen and was free to run around. Why did God not warn man to not listen to Satan? That is a theme of the Bible ever since, why was it not before the fall of man?

 

[brotherjerry]

Do you think the garden deception was the last straw?

Last straw to what?

While not strongly supported by Scripture it is also not refuted. But the idea that the fall of Satan happened when man fell does fit into many different situations correctly.

As noted in previous response, look at the punishment of the serpent. Why would God punish the serpent if it was just a serpent and not punish Satan?
Also consider that angels have free will just like man does. But before man fell, what was there to choose from? The sin of man was not disobeying God, but it was actually determining what was good and what was evil for themselves. Man decided it was good to eat the fruit, denying what God said was evil.

This decision to decide what was good and evil for themselves gave them the choice to choose evil. Which if it existed before this point, why did God not warn them of the serpent? We are warned repeatedly about the serpent afterwards, why not before? If the serpent had not fallen yet, then there would have been nothing to warn them about. But afterwards there is plenty to warn them about.

And if man could deny God's judgement of good and evil was all the incentive needed for Satan and those that followed him to revolt in heaven and be cast down.

It is always food to ponder and as I read the Bible I look for further things that help fit that mold.

 

[BobRyan]

Just because he was called Serpent of old does not mean he was the serpent before the garden..that could be a reference to being the serpent of the old stories of the creation.

The oldest serpent in the Bible - is the one in the tree.

Rev 12
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Does not leave us any room for "was a good serpent in Eden but then later turned bad" --

We get no indication of when he actually fell in the Bible.

We know that at the time that he appears in the Bible - tempting Eve - he is the dragon, Devil, Satan, Serpent of old.

We know from Rev 12 that his real war is with Michael - and that in reality it is a war between Satan and Michael that also expands out to war that includes humans.

In Job 1 and 2 - the humans are being protected by God - and attacked by Satan who tries to work the system against them.

In Gen 2 - the humans are told that they can pretty much go anywhere - except the tree of knowledge -- they may not eat of it.

Problem you have is that if you take the punishment of the serpent in Gen 3 as to punish a creature and turn it into a snake to slither on the ground, then Rev 12 has issues in taking the reference of Satan and the serpent of old being the serpent in Gen 3. Because if all God did in Gen 3 was punish a creature, then it was not Satan who tempted Eve, but just some creature.

In Genesis 3 there are several things stated about the serpent as the Devil - and the serpent as a creature.

Gen 3
Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”


13 And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

=========================
That is the proto evangel
http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/significance-proto-evangel-genesis-315/

The devil is at war with the woman and her seed - the church and church members -
And in the highest sense - the seed of the woman is Christ.
The devil is also at war with Christ.

Christ bruises the head of the serpent on the cross - overcoming Satan - providing salvation for mankind. And then at the 2nd coming again he bruises Satan - and again in rev 20 the lake of fire - Satan's deadly wound - final.

But the serpent bruises his heel - tormenting Christ at the cross.

As for the literal serpent. - the animal, the species is doomed to slither along the ground from that point on. As a testimony to mankind about the fall of man.

What is more - the serpent is talking - this is purely a feature of Satan's use of that animal at the time.

Just as the case with Baalam's donkey - that speaks to Baalam not because donkeys have that ability - but because of some supernatural use of the donkey by God or an angel.

You could say that Satan possessed the serpent and was speaking for it. But then why would God punish something that did not have any control over it and not punish Satan for causing doing the tempting?

The proto-evangel tells satan he will lose - that Christ the seed of the woman - will defeat him.

15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Satan is also told that "God puts enmity" war - "between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent" - Instead of Satan "winning" mankind as he won over 1/3 of the angels that were totally enslaved to his evil dictates - as brothers in rebellion - mankind would not be wholesale sold out to Satan. There would be a supernaturally inserted "emnity" - discord between the kingdom of Satan and the world of mankind.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This decision to decide what was good and evil for themselves gave them the choice to choose evil. Which if it existed before this point, why did God not warn them of the serpent? We are warned repeatedly about the serpent afterwards, why not before?

Given that this incident dooms all of humanity and creates the need for the Gospel - the need for God the Son to become incarnate - suffer - be tortured on the cross - die for mankind - substituionary atoning sacrifice. That is HUGE enough so that we would expect God to be "invested" in what was about to happen - and that includes warning Adam and Eve - fair warning -- not a "gotcha" oops - surprise - bumper-cars like sudden wrong-turn. As you point out. if it is all that big a deal why didn't God warn them - at least a little more than simply "don't eat of that tree"?

I believe He did tell them of the war in heaven, the fall of Lucifer - the fact that Lucifer was restricted from getting access to them except at the tree - and that they must be on their guard.

The same way in Is 8:19 we are told not to go to the dead and ask them questions on behalf of the living. If we go to them and start asking questions we will get some bad information - some more story telling.

Yes but those "details" don't show up in the Genesis text - just like Genesis never tells us about Abraham seeing the days of Christ in the future and being "glad" about those future events shown him in vision.

First consider this - Gen 6 and 7 tells Noah to take 7 pairs of clean animals and 2 pairs of unclean into the boat. ... well "what is a clean animal?" - there is no definition at all for it in Gen 1-7 .. nothing... nada. To find that term defined you have to read Lev 11.

In John 8 Jesus said "Abraham saw my day and was glad"
In Gal 3:7 "The gospel was preached to Abraham".

But nothing at all is said about that in the actual Genesis account.

The "take away" is that Gen 1-9 is not an exhaustive account of everything ever said for the first 1600 years of human history. Not even every word God ever said. Both Peter and Jude tell us that people before the flood were preaching -- nothing handed down to us in Gen 1-7 about their preaching. The account is not "exhaustive".

So i have included some Bible "clues" as to what might have been going on - but apart from God coming down and showing someone 30,000 pages of more detailed material -- all we have are those clues.

Of course if He did do that - and I decided to read some of those details - would I share them all here -- or simply point to the Bible texts that point in the direction where the more expansive explanation points us.

 

[brotherjerry]

The oldest serpent in the Bible - is the one in the tree.

Does not leave us any room for "was a good serpent in Eden but then later turned bad" --

Agreed that the oldest serpent in the Bible is the one in the tree...at least the oldest one mentioned specifically...one would have to assume that serpents were included in the days of creation as the creepy things that crawl on the earth and such.

And it does leave room for Satan to be the serpent that rebelled in the Garden by tempting man and causing man to fall. "Serpent of Old" is just a reference to the Serpent in the Garden...it stops there, it does not refer to the serpent before the garden or anything else.

Remember, sin did not enter the world until man succumbed to the temptation. If Satan were already fallen and roaming the world before man ate the fruit...then logically sin would have already been in the world. The world was NOT created for Satan, it was created for man.

We know that at the time that he appears in the Bible - tempting Eve - he is the dragon, Devil, Satan, Serpent of old.

We know from Rev 12 that his real war is with Michael - and that in reality it is a war between Satan and Michael that also expands out to war that includes humans.

Yep. So. Does not refute that Satan could have fallen at the same time man also fell.

In Job 1 and 2 - the humans are being protected by God - and attacked by Satan who tries to work the system against them.

Yep no disagreement there...it is what Satan does and has done right from the start.

In Gen 2 - the humans are told that they can pretty much go anywhere - except the tree of knowledge -- they may not eat of it.

Yeah in Gen 2 sin had not entered the world. No one had fallen. And quite potentially neither had Satan.

As for the literal serpent. - the animal, the species is doomed to slither along the ground from that point on. As a testimony to mankind about the fall of man

So God, who is a just God, punished an entire species of animals for something Satan did and not the serpent? When God flooded the world the reminder of His covenant was a rainbow....but prior to that, you would say that God cursed a species of animal?

What is more - the serpent is talking - this is purely a feature of Satan's use of that animal at the time.

Just as the case with Baalam's donkey - that speaks to Baalam not because donkeys have that ability - but because of some supernatural use of the donkey by God or an angel.
The devil

The problem with this comparison. With the donkey we have direct mention that the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey. We do not see that with the serpent. And since the serpent was mentioned as being more crafty than any other animal, and that there is no mention of God or Satan opening the mouth of the serpent, then it can only be assumed that the serpent spoke on its own and was quite possibly naturally able to speak.

Keep in mind the mention of the 1/3 comes from Revelations 12, and it speaks of sweeping the stars to the earth. If we are to equate the stars as the angels who fell, they fell to where? The earth. Which was created in the 6 days and did not exist before God created it. So if Rev 12 is speaking of the fall of Satan and the angels, then it had to have happened after the creation.

 

[brotherjerry]

Given that this incident dooms all of humanity and creates the need for the Gospel - the need for God the Son to become incarnate - suffer - be tortured on the cross - die for mankind - substituionary atoning sacrifice. That is HUGE enough so that we would expect God to be "invested" in what was about to happen - and that includes warning Adam and Eve - fair warning -- not a "gotcha" oops - surprise - bumper-cars like sudden wrong-turn. As you point out. if it is all that big a deal why didn't God warn them - at least a little more than simply "don't eat of that tree"?

I believe He did tell them of the war in heaven, the fall of Lucifer - the fact that Lucifer was restricted from getting access to them except at the tree - and that they must be on their guard.

The same way in Is 8:19 we are told not to go to the dead and ask them questions on behalf of the living. If we go to them and start asking questions we will get some bad information - some more story telling.

Yes but those "details" don't show up in the Genesis text - just like Genesis never tells us about Abraham seeing the days of Christ in the future and being "glad" about those future events shown him in vision.

First consider this - Gen 6 and 7 tells Noah to take 7 pairs of clean animals and 2 pairs of unclean into the boat. ... well "what is a clean animal?" - there is no definition at all for it in Gen 1-7 .. nothing... nada. To find that term defined you have to read Lev 11.

In John 8 Jesus said "Abraham saw my day and was glad"
In Gal 3:7 "The gospel was preached to Abraham".

But nothing at all is said about that in the actual Genesis account.

The "take away" is that Gen 1-9 is not an exhaustive account of everything ever said for the first 1600 years of human history. Not even every word God ever said. Both Peter and Jude tell us that people before the flood were preaching -- nothing handed down to us in Gen 1-7 about their preaching. The account is not "exhaustive".

So i have included some Bible "clues" as to what might have been going on - but apart from God coming down and showing someone 30,000 pages of more detailed material -- all we have are those clues.

Of course if He did do that - and I decided to read some of those details - would I share them all here -- or simply point to the Bible texts that point in the direction where the more expansive explanation points us.

I agree with this completely. But God ensured that what was important was preserved in His Word as He saw fit. The problem is that we are not given any hints that Satan fell before creation of the garden. Or that Satan was restricted access to the tree and only through possession or taking the shape of a serpent. In the beginning there was just God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The angels are referred to as the morning stars, the first to witness the creation, but they were not there before the beginning...because only God is eternal in the sense of having no beginning or end. All other things have a beginning, but may have no end (eternal life has a start but no end for example).

 

[BobRyan]

Only God is eternal - everyone else is finite and that includes Angels.

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" that covers all of the universe - even the Angels, Lucifer etc and all of life on planet earth. God is the creator of everything. Everthing is finite - but God is infinite.

However Gen 1:2-2:4 (7 day creation week) then goes on to zero in on this planet, life on this planet - our solar system -- the sun and the moon. the TWO great lights created on day 4.

God also created the stars - but not on day 4 -- so also the Angels but not on day 4 or day 6 -- before that.

Heb 1 and Heb 11 tells us that "God created WORLDS" not just "this world" -- in His universe. Genesis gives us a more narrow and detailed focus as it progresses.

Gen 1:1 - the entire universe.
Gen 1:2-2:4 our solar system - our planet - all life on our planet.
Gen 2:vs5 - vs25 - the garden of Eden - marriage, the law about the tree of knowledge. The immortality that is accessible by continued access to the "Tree of Life".

But the devil fell long before mankind was made.

The Bible tells us in Isaiah 14 and Ezek 28 that vanity and pride (not tempting Eve) was the cause of Lucifer's fall.
only in Rev 12 do we learn that at Lucifer's fall he drew with him - 1/3 of the angels. He fell long before mankind was created - but he was not cast down to earth -- limited to Earth - until after the cross - just as Rev 12 explains.

Lucifer was the first of God's created beings - the highest in power, intellect, privilege, power, authority - next to God. But of course Lucifer as a created being was finite - and God as infinite God -- is infinite. Between finite and infinite the gap between them is always infinite no matter how glorious and powerful and smart that created being may be.

As a sinless perfect created being with all that authority - the covering cherub - who stands in the presence of God - Lucifer had a lot of influence with the angels under his command and in heaven in general - once he turned to evil - and determined to deceive - the "devil and his angels" waged war.

That can only happen if infinite God "allows it" - after all God could simply sneeze (figuratively) and all evil angels would cease to exist.

 

[BobRyan]

Remember, sin did not enter the world until man succumbed to the temptation. If Satan were already fallen and roaming the world before man ate the fruit...then logically sin would have already been in the world. The world was NOT created for Satan, it was created for man. .

That is true of all the created "Worlds" of Heb 1 and Heb 11 before that as well. Each of them having their own intelligent life - none of the unfallen worlds created for Satan. But when he lost the war in heaven he still had freedom to "move around" he could not claim any of the worlds as his own - and his "existence" did not make anyone that saw or spoke to him " a sinner ". Each person sins when they choose to sin - not simply because they "see" or even "speak to" the devil.

we see that in Matt 4 - Christ both sees and speaks to the devil but has not sinned.

Part of God's restriction against the devil before sin expanded beyond rebellion in heaven - was that the devil could not go around dogging the heels of those on other worlds nor even the sinless angels in heaven. He had to pretty much keep to himself away from inhabited areas - except in areas God forbade others from going.

Casting Lucifer out of heaven put him in a world of hurt because he no longer had access to the Tree of Life in heaven that God talks about in Rev 2 and Rev 22. Nor would God allow him to access that tree as it was also placed on the planets of the inhabited sinless worlds. His days were numbered - albeit long lived since even to this day he has not had access to the Tree of Life - yet still lives on. Each member of Mankind lived for 1000 years after losing access to the Tree of Life, before the flood. After the flood our environment changed and our diet changed - and life spans began to shrink by 90%.

Satan and his angels have lived more than 6000 years since they lost access to the Tree of Life. And they will live much longer if left to themselves - that includes living beyond the 1000 year millennium. Still they are not God - they are not infinite - they will end eventually. But God does not let it go on like that - in Rev 20 He cuts them off in the lake of fire.

God restricted Satan so that he could not harass sinless beings on any of the worlds - except at the one place God told them all - not to go ... the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Just like God tells us not to go to the dead for help, counsel, advise - in Isaiah 8:19 -- yet some choose to go there and who is it they "think they are meeting"? They think they are meeting loved ones - but who are they really meeting there? -- demons. And they are getting "a story" just like Eve got one in Eden.

 

[mmksparbud]

I guess some of this might be dependent on ones definition of "fallen." What would you call someone who is not in agreement with God? Someone who is trying to get another to do what God has forbidden, someone who calls God liar? If you are not with God you are against Him. When Satan fell, He lied and manipulated the rest f the angels until 1/3 of them believed him and they were caste out with Him. That had to have happened before the garden as the serpent is Satan now, no longer Lucifer. God had to face the choice of blotting him and his followers out altogether. But He only cast them out--why? Why not just blot them out. What would have the rest of the angels thought had God done that? Then they would have wondered if maybe Lucifer had been right and God was not what He seemed. And what about other worlds--are we the only ones He created, or the only ones that have not fallen? It's an endless universe out there, what about all those others who were watching all this---should God have left them all wondering for eternity if Lucifer was right? Only thing to do was to let
Satan have his way that all may see the end result of following him. They saw it the garden, they saw it in the flood, they saw it in the Crucifixion. At the crucifixion, all doubt was removed. God's love is seen and the end result of believing in Satan was seen by all.

 

[brotherjerry]

That is true of all the created "Worlds" of Heb 1 and Heb 11 before that as well. Each of them having their own intelligent life - none of the unfallen worlds created for Satan. But when he lost the war in heaven he still had freedom to "move around" he could not claim any of the worlds as his own - and his "existence" did not make anyone that saw or spoke to him " a sinner ". Each person sins when they choose to sin - not simply because they "see" or even "speak to" the devil.

we see that in Matt 4 - Christ both sees and speaks to the devil but has not sinned.

Part of God's restriction against the devil before sin expanded beyond rebellion in heaven - was that the devil could not go around dogging the heels of those on other worlds nor even the sinless angels in heaven. He had to pretty much keep to himself away from inhabited areas - except in areas God forbade others from going.

Casting Lucifer out of heaven put him in a world of hurt because he no longer had access to the Tree of Life in heaven that God talks about in Rev 2 and Rev 22. Nor would God allow him to access that tree as it was also placed on the planets of the inhabited sinless worlds. His days were numbered - albeit long lived since even to this day he has not had access to the Tree of Life - yet still lives on. Each member of Mankind lived for 1000 years after losing access to the Tree of Life, before the flood. After the flood our environment changed and our diet changed - and life spans began to shrink by 90%.

Satan and his angels have lived more than 6000 years since they lost access to the Tree of Life. And they will live much longer if left to themselves - that includes living beyond the 1000 year millennium. Still they are not God - they are not infinite - they will end eventually. But God does not let it go on like that - in Rev 20 He cuts them off in the lake of fire.

God restricted Satan so that he could not harass sinless beings on any of the worlds - except at the one place God told them all - not to go ... the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Just like God tells us not to go to the dead for help, counsel, advise - in Isaiah 8:19 -- yet some choose to go there and who is it they "think they are meeting"? They think they are meeting loved ones - but who are they really meeting there? -- demons. And they are getting "a story" just like Eve got one in Eden.

Only God is eternal - everyone else is finite and that includes Angels

If we are saved, do we not have eternal life? While it is easy to confuse finite and infinite with eternal and not eternal, they are two different things with very similar meanings. When it comes to God He is eternal and infinite, He has no beginning, nor end. We can be finite as well as eternal as well, but still have a starting point for both. When you were given eternal life by God, it will go on forever and have no end. It does however, have a beginning, but it is still called eternal life.

It is prideful and vane to think you could cause one of God's perfect creations to disobey God. I am sure Satan felt very full of himselft after that...which is prideful. So we are still quite possibly at the point of man falling that Satan may have also fallen.

in Rev 12 do we learn that at Lucifer's fall he drew with him - 1/3 of the angels. He fell long before mankind was created - but he was not cast down to earth -- limited to Earth - until after the cross - just as Rev 12 explains.

But you cannot take half of the verse and take it to mean one things while ignoring what the other half says. The verse says that 1/3 were cast down to earth.

Part of God's restriction against the devil before sin expanded beyond rebellion in heaven - was that the devil could not go around dogging the heels of those on other worlds nor even the sinless angels in heaven. He had to pretty much keep to himself away from inhabited areas - except in areas God forbade others from going

But where are you seeing this restriction? It is not spoken of in the creation story at all. No where does it say that now that man had fallen, Satan can now roam the world free and clear, where prior to that, he was contained.

 

[BobRyan]

If we are saved, do we not have eternal life? While it is easy to confuse finite and infinite with eternal and not eternal, they are two different things with very similar meanings. When it comes to God He is eternal and infinite, He has no beginning, nor end. We can be finite as well as eternal as well, but still have a starting point for both. When you were given eternal life by God, it will go on forever and have no end. It does however, have a beginning, but it is still called eternal life.

Christ alone has "Life in himself" according to Christ in John 5. 1 Tim 6:15-16
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

When we are born-again we do not become God -- Jesus as God - claims He has "life in himself" --

God the source of all life - chooses to sustain the saints for all of eternity - but He remains the source of all life.

I was making the distinction between the infinite God and all finite creatures (including angels).

It is prideful and vane to think you could cause one of God's perfect creations to disobey God. I am sure Satan felt very full of himselft after that...which is prideful.

Satan was pretty sure he could get them to fall - but Is 14 and Ezek 28 does not say that Satan was "prideful by thinking that he could cause angels to fall" or "prideful by thinking that he could cause humans to fall". Rather those chapters point to something very specific in Lucifer's history prior to the fall of mankind. But as noted - we do not have an exhaustive account of all events that took place in history.

But you cannot take half of the verse and take it to mean one things while ignoring what the other half says. The verse says that 1/3 were cast down to earth.

Indeed - and it says that happened after Christ ascended to heaven. "her Child was caught up to God and His throne."

5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

the war began before the creation of the world - it continues to this very day. In Rev 20 Satan causes the wicked to surround the city of God - thinking to attack it - but then fire comes down out of heaven from God and consumes them.

But where are you seeing this restriction? It is not spoken of in the creation story at all. No where does it say that now that man had fallen, Satan can now roam the world free and clear, where prior to that, he was contained.

Job 1 says that Satan claimed he could "roam the earth"
Matt 4 Satan says "this world is mine - I give it to whomever I wish"
2 Cor 4:4 NASB Satan is now - is still "the god of this world"

But that was not the case when God gave this world to mankind in Gen 1
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

prior to the fall - man was in charge in earth -- he ruled not Satan and God would not allow Satan or his angels to come here and dog mankind all over planet earth - as if that would be such a great existence for mankind.

Rather Satan only had access one place - at the forbidden tree.

 

[BobRyan]

God created all the angels ( before creating this world) - all of them sinless and perfect (even Lucifer as both Isaiah 14 and Ezek 28 state.)

What did not happens is - that one of the sinless holy angels (Lucifer) decided "today I think I will be the devil - I will tempt mankind to fall and to be doomed to a life of misery".

That is not the sort of "transition" that is logical been sinless holy perfect -- and king of demons. It was far more complex, far more intricate such that Lucifer could convince up to 1/3 of the angels of the rightness/justice of his cause.

Notice that in the much simpler example of tempting Eve - Satan does not show up as his bright shining angel-self and say "Hey Eve why not choose to be a sinner and doom all mankind today? Doesn't that sound good?"

That sort of non-sequitur does not work even on humans.

Rather Satan starts by disguising who he is - and coming up with "proof" visible "proof" of his claim. He claims that the tree has "powers" that will cause Eve to "evolve" to some higher form such that she will "be like God" in some way. And PROOF is "hey look at me I am just a serpent - and yet after eating this fruit I have the power of speech. You as a human would evolve almost infinitely beyond your current state if you eat of it -- you will become like God in some way".

The argument was based on visible verifiable PROOF that eating the fruit would not instantly kill you and that it in fact causes those who eat it to evolve upward. It was much more "difficult" and challenging for Eve than simply saying "lets give evil a try and doom mankind".

in the same way 1/3 of the sinless angels also could not be convinced by a very simplistic 'lets be demons today' or anything of that sort.

 

[Tina W]

Hello. I am here because there is big question in my mind that's been bugging me to get answers and it's on the topic of Satan. Does he really exists, is he a metaphor, or just an invention of the Catholic Church?

Now, here is where i draw my questioning.

Satan is believed to be a former high angel, who fell from heaven because he either hated Man, rebelled against God or both. Now, this world is a suffering world.. we die, there is pain, there is evil, the world is just damaged because sin entered it through Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve fell into the temptation of the Serpent, so the serpent is accepted to be Satan which means his fall pre dates the Garden of Eden.

So here is the problem, if this world became what it is because of Adam and Eve sinning, then why didn't heaven get the same results if the actual first sin was done in heaven - through Satan?

The whole existence of Satan just contradicts ALLOT about what we know about God -the just God, how Heaven is the perfect place. I will get into the contradictions later on after this question has been tackled.

That's like asking why I'm able to have control over a rebellious 3yr old but an ant can't LOL. It's because the fallen angels when they rebelled against God were kicked out of Heaven, defeated by the angels who chose God. Their whole system is different from ours because angels don't reproduce so none of them were born under any kind of sin nature. The angels are higher beings than mankind so the angels on God's side were able to defeat the fallen angels, we humans cannot battle fallen angels on our own which is why Jesus came to die for us to make it possible for us to still go to Heaven. Angels are higher beings than us humans. When the fallen angels fought other angels they were fighting their own kind, their equals and they were defeated. We humans are not equal to angels, fallen angels or Godly angels. There are no contradictions there are just your misunderstandings that makes it seem like contradictions.

 

[Tina W]

Sorry for the delay. I just saw this response.

In short, no. As Wiltor pointed out, they were told they would immediately die if they ate it, not that they would live forever otherwise. That's like saying that if a person threatens you with a gun, he's saying that you are going to live forever if he doesn't shoot - of course he's not saying that.

One place this is clear is in Gen. 3:22, where if they ate from the tree of immortality they'd become immortal - so they must have been mortal from the start.

Another is the very fact that God told them they'd die immediately if eating the fruit. If nothing died, then how would they know what death even was? God's words would have made no sense, and would have needed explanation of what "dying" was.

There are tons of logical reasons too - like, how could they eat without death? Anytime anyone eats something - whether that's meat or vegetable, the living cells of the food die.
Other reasons are discussed on this thread - see especially post #4, where I talk about an explosion reaching out past the moon!

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/animal-death-before-the-fall.7542459/#post56943417

In Christ-

Papias

They did die that day, spiritually and physically. The death process began that day. It's like someone being given a poison that has no cure and no way to stop it. The day they are injected with the poison they are as good as dead even if the poison takes 2 days to kill them, inside their body the dying process has begun so they are dying they just don't know it or feel it yet. That's what happened in the Garden. When they ate the apple, the dying process began inside their body that day. It just took years to finish because they were made perfect and meant to live forever so it took along time for the "poison" to work completely through their physical body to finish their dying process. Once they ate the apple, Adam was a dead man walking. He was dying he just didn't feel it yet. But he felt something because he felt the need to cover up. When God told them they would die He also defined death for them.

 

[Tina W]

Only God is eternal - everyone else is finite and that includes Angels.

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" that covers all of the universe - even the Angels, Lucifer etc and all of life on planet earth. God is the creator of everything. Everthing is finite - but God is infinite.

However Gen 1:2-2:4 (7 day creation week) then goes on to zero in on this planet, life on this planet - our solar system -- the sun and the moon. the TWO great lights created on day 4.

God also created the stars - but not on day 4 -- so also the Angels but not on day 4 or day 6 -- before that.

Heb 1 and Heb 11 tells us that "God created WORLDS" not just "this world" -- in His universe. Genesis gives us a more narrow and detailed focus as it progresses.

Gen 1:1 - the entire universe.
Gen 1:2-2:4 our solar system - our planet - all life on our planet.
Gen 2:vs5 - vs25 - the garden of Eden - marriage, the law about the tree of knowledge. The immortality that is accessible by continued access to the "Tree of Life".

But the devil fell long before mankind was made.

The Bible tells us in Isaiah 14 and Ezek 28 that vanity and pride (not tempting Eve) was the cause of Lucifer's fall.
only in Rev 12 do we learn that at Lucifer's fall he drew with him - 1/3 of the angels. He fell long before mankind was created - but he was not cast down to earth -- limited to Earth - until after the cross - just as Rev 12 explains.

Lucifer was the first of God's created beings - the highest in power, intellect, privilege, power, authority - next to God. But of course Lucifer as a created being was finite - and God as infinite God -- is infinite. Between finite and infinite the gap between them is always infinite no matter how glorious and powerful and smart that created being may be.

As a sinless perfect created being with all that authority - the covering cherub - who stands in the presence of God - Lucifer had a lot of influence with the angels under his command and in heaven in general - once he turned to evil - and determined to deceive - the "devil and his angels" waged war.

That can only happen if infinite God "allows it" - after all God could simply sneeze (figuratively) and all evil angels would cease to exist.

That's why I believe in the gap theory. The angels of God and the fallen angels are older than mankind. God did not create the angels at the same time that He created man. Genesis 1 says in the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth. The angels were not in existence before Heaven and the universe were created, they were created after God created the universe and Heaven which is where they live. If you eliminate that gap then that would mean the angels were created 1 or 2 days before man. How could the angels rebel and tempt Adam & Eve a few days after being created? The angels have been around for a long time before God made Adam & Eve. Genesis 1 just lets us know that God created everything in the very beginning. Then verse 2 tells how the earth was dark and void and God restored it and created man. There was something going on on this earth before God made Adam & Eve. Then God restored the earth and started everything new with Adam & Eve. Adam & Eve gave control of the earth to satan when they believed him over God and ate of the tree of knowledge.

 

[BobRyan]

That's why I believe in the gap theory. The angels of God and the fallen angels are older than mankind. God did not create the angels at the same time that He created man. Genesis 1 says in the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth. The angels were not in existence before Heaven and the universe were created, they were created after God created the universe and Heaven which is where they live. If you eliminate that gap then that would mean the angels were created 1 or 2 days before man. How could the angels rebel and tempt Adam & Eve a few days after being created? The angels have been around for a long time before God made Adam & Eve. Genesis 1 just lets us know that God created everything in the very beginning.

I agree with that part.

However the one thing Genesis 1 does do absolutely is describes the creation of life on planet earth. So there can be no life on it - before that time.

Adam & Eve gave control of the earth to satan when they believed him over God and ate of the tree of knowledge.

Agreed.

However this is the part that Genesis 1 does not allow - the creation of the planet and life on it before the creation of the planet and life on it.

Then verse 2 tells how the earth was dark and void and God restored it and created man. There was something going on on this earth before God made Adam & Eve. Then God restored the earth and started everything new with Adam & Eve.

The text does not say "God restored atmosphere" or "restored dry land" or "restored plants" on day 3 or "restored the sun" on day 4.

 

[BobRyan]

They did die that day, spiritually and physically. The death process began that day. It's like someone being given a poison that has no cure and no way to stop it. The day they are injected with the poison they are as good as dead even if the poison takes 2 days to kill them, inside their body the dying process has begun so they are dying they just don't know it or feel it yet. That's what happened in the Garden. When they ate the apple, the dying process began inside their body that day. It just took years to finish because they were made perfect and meant to live forever so it took along time for the "poison" to work completely through their physical body to finish their dying process. Once they ate the apple, Adam was a dead man walking. He was dying he just didn't feel it yet. But he felt something because he felt the need to cover up. When God told them they would die He also defined death for them.

on that very day -

They died spiritually - they took on a sinful nature that was bent against God the source of all life.
And they were removed from access to the 'Tree of Life' in Genesis 3 - such that physical death was certain for them.

 

[BobRyan]

That's like asking why I'm able to have control over a rebellious 3yr old but an ant can't LOL. It's because the fallen angels when they rebelled against God were kicked out of Heaven, defeated by the angels who chose God. Their whole system is different from ours because angels don't reproduce so none of them were born under any kind of sin nature. The angels are higher beings than mankind so the angels on God's side were able to defeat the fallen angels, we humans cannot battle fallen angels on our own which is why Jesus came to die for us to make it possible for us to still go to Heaven. Angels are higher beings than us humans. When the fallen angels fought other angels they were fighting their own kind, their equals and they were defeated. We humans are not equal to angels, fallen angels or Godly angels. There are no contradictions there are just your misunderstandings that makes it seem like contradictions.

That is true - but I think the question was more along the lines of "why didn't heaven become a mess when some of its own members fell into sin just like earth became a mess?" -- the reason is because all of humanity fell - and thus the entire planet was turned over to Satan's rule - whereas all of heaven's angels did not fall.

 

[brotherjerry]

Is 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth.

If this is speaking of the fall of Satan. Then Satan was cast out after day 3 of creation. Because before then there was no earth.

Even the verses following this reference earthly things "I will ascend" meaning to go up from the earth as ascend it mentioned time and time again in the Bible as reference from terrestrial earth to heaven. "above the stars" also speaking of celestial things created during the 6 days.

Verse 15 "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol"
Sheol did not exist until man was created...there was no need for Sheol until man was created.

Indeed - and it says that happened after Christ ascended to heaven. "her Child was caught up to God and His throne."

5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

I understand all of this we can quit talking about this, I merely referenced this in response to someone wondering where 1/3 came from. And this is the verse that people use in reference to Satan taking 1/3 of the angels with him.

the war began before the creation of the world - it continues to this very day. In Rev 20 Satan causes the wicked to surround the city of God - thinking to attack it - but then fire comes down out of heaven from God and consumes them.

I agree that the war is still going on. But I can also see where the war started with fall of man. All references of Satan being cast out of heaven, or falling from heaven, is to fall to earth. He could not have fallen to earth before the world was created.

Job 1 says that Satan claimed he could "roam the earth"
Matt 4 Satan says "this world is mine - I give it to whomever I wish"
2 Cor 4:4 NASB Satan is now - is still "the god of this world"

But that was not the case when God gave this world to mankind in Gen 1
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

prior to the fall - man was in charge in earth -- he ruled not Satan and God would not allow Satan or his angels to come here and dog mankind all over planet earth - as if that would be such a great existence for mankind.

Rather Satan only had access one place - at the forbidden tree.

So no verse that says Satan was restricted, only conjecture. The idea I posited also fits. Before the fall Satan and the angels were free to roam, we see they were with man even after the fall and took human wives. But even without that if the angels were servants of God they were not placed in any dominion over anything. And before the fall sin had not entered the world, so it was blameless. Then when Satan rebelled against God and caused man to also fall, sin entered the world, as Satan was cast down to the earth. Dominion of the earth then became Satan's.

To think that Satan...the master of lies...had fallen and was given only access to the one tree that man should not go near...seems like stacking the deck to me...and if God was the one placing the restrictions, then He was the one stacking the deck. Why let Satan into the garden at all?