The existence Satan

[yeshuasavedme]

So instead of attempting to disprove anything I said...you simply want to say I am in error? Really?

Actually, I wrote what is fact about the history of the Book of Enoch and the existence of Satan.
Enoch was never part of Torah, but preceded it for all the tribes of the earth, and told of the coming of the Son of Man for the salvation of all nations [for whosoever would choose to be the elect, and believe on His name].
Torah did not come out of nothing, but out of the promises of God from the beginning, and Moses need not re-write the foundations of God's revelations because Enoch already had written them. Moses and all the rest of the prophets had Enoch, and they say things founded in Enoch, not in Torah, about the Work of the Messiah, for the foundation cannot be re-laid.

Canon is not a "sealed" thing for all the Church in all the Church age, notr was it so in the ancient Jewish writings. The books were burned in the holy temple in Jerusalem, by Babylon, and Ezra/Esdras, the priest, wrote them again, with other men under him, and they did not give all the books to the priesthood. They hid some for the end times.
That is in the Book of Esdras, if you care to read it, which is included in some Orthodox Bibles, but in all the Churches, what is called "canon" has had a history of change, even in those Churches, for Churches headed by fallible men change their mind according to the winds of power and politics. The Holy Spirit does not change His mind, and He never has given mankind a list/canon, through fallible men. Some of the books are "Thus saith YHWH; some are "the writings; some are "the wisdom books".

The Essenes were a priestly class who believed they were the only ones, as sons of Zadok, to stand before the LORD in the third temple to come. They separated themselvess from the unlawful order of the illegal priesthood in Jerusalem from the days of the Maccabees. Josephus lived with them at one point, and thought to joion them, but did npot take the final vows, so you are not lookling at history, but just making statements that can be refuted by true history.
Enoch was in their "Bible", as the fragments of over thirty copies of the Book of Enoch from the DSS prove. They were Jews, priestly class of the sons of Zadok, the sons of Righteousness, from whence the "Essenes" get their name.

Eze 44:15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:

Ezekiel 28 is not about the devil. It is a traditional modern man made myth to teach is is so. It as the Word of God to a human being/an Adam person, and the guilt of the Adam spirit in that Adam soul, and the end of that Adam person, and the Adam spirit, which shall be as if it had not been, for in Enoch we see that the spirit of the Adam will not rise from the earth, and those souls in bodies who do rise in the state of unrepentence and are judged and cast into the Lake of Fire are cast there soul in resurrected bodies, minus the Adam spirit, which Jesus also plainly states, cause that truth is written down foundationally in the Book of Enoch.
That is why Enoch states and Jesus repeats, that those cast into the Lake of Fire are "never dying worms". There is a tremendous study from the Word of God on that fact, but it is not for here. I have done it in a thread on this forum in years past. A never dying worm is the state of a human being body raised for the soul to dwell in it again forever -or separated from it's Adam spirit at the time they are thrown into the Lake of Fire alive in body, like the false prophet and the goat Gentiles at Jesus' return to rule.
Enoch said it. Jesus corroborated it. look up "never dying worm", "undying worm", "soul and body cast into the Lake of Fire" in your concordance, and then you can see what Enoch wrote before Jesus said that, by going to this link and doing word checks: http://www.summascriptura.com/html/Enoch_1_RHC.htm#99:2
It is the Adam spirit which is as it had not been, in Ezekiel 28, for it never rises from Sheol when the souls who are raised from there are raised in their own human being flesh bodies which are then cast into the Lake of Fire at the judgment of them, minus the spirit of them. The circumcision on the 8th day is an oracle of this truth from Torah, also,. Adam does not multiply itself by it's Adam spirit after the end of the Millennial Sabbath of this present creation, and the regeneration of the 8th day leaves only the flesh of the New Man, with the New Spirit of adoption.


2 Thess 3:3 has one chief evil one, just like Enoch and the Torah and the prophets do show, and many evil satans under him.
Paul wrote of the many created evil angels and the one chief in more than one place. Revelation shows one third of the heavenly host are evil angels, not fallen angels, like the Torah shows, in heaven, and are created evil angels/satans, with one chief.Col 2:15

Jesus has stripped them of their power for all who enter into the kingdom of God, and during the tribulation, they are cast down to earth before they are chained in Sheol below, for the thousand years of earth's peace, when they are let out and test the seed born in Adam of the Blessed of YHWH for the Sabbath Millennial, before they are cast into their own kingdom of darkness, forever.

They are the rulers of darkness in the heavenlies, with one chief: They accuse us before the throne, and they are the satans. They will be cast down out of heaven in the tribulation....
Eph 6:12NKJV for we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,fn against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Look who fends off the accusers of us in the heavenly realm, before the throne:
Revelation 12 shows the host of the satans accuse the brethren before the throne in heaven, and are cast down when there is war in the heavens and the evil angels are cast down, during the tribulation, after the rapture of the Church.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Enoch chapter 40:
The Four Presences

2And on the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presences, different from those that sleep not, and I learnt their names: for the angel that went with me made known to me their names, and showed me all the hidden things.

3And I heard the voices of those four presences as they uttered praises before the Lord of glory.
4The first voice blesses the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever.
5And the second voice I heard blessing the Elect One and the elect ones who hang upon the Lord of Spirits.
6And the third voice I heard pray and intercede for those who dwell on the earth and supplicate in the name of the Lord of Spirits.
7And I heard the fourth voice fending off the satans and forbidding them to come before the Lord of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth.

8After that I asked the angel of peace who went with me, who showed me everything that is hidden: "Who are these four presences which I have seen and whose words I have heard and written down?"

9And he said to me: "This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel."

10And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.


NLT For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

 

[BobRyan]

Whether the Apocrypha is seen as canon or not depends upon what churches and church fathers you re looking to. Palestinian Jewry apparently did not consider it canonical, at least according to Josephus. .

Josephus points out that the Hebrew Bible as preserved in the temple in Jerusalem had not changed for over 400 years. No books added - none removed... according to Josephus.

 

[BobRyan]

Perhaps you should study just a little bit more...Rome did not decide to keep Enoch from canon...the Jews did. Enoch is not a New Testament writing.

indeed - the Apocryphal books are not part of the NT and they are also not part of the Hebrew Bible - the OT. But they claim to be written at a time that is before Christ - so they cannot be claimed by any Christian group as if that group has authority over them. It is a Jewish matter.

 

[BobRyan]

The Garden is Paradise. The meaning of Paradise is garden, .

The word is not found in the OT for Eden. And neither does the NT speak of Eden calling it Paradise. (the Greek word for "Park")

Your problem is that you are trying to get some statement in the OT to say that Eden was in the Third Heaven - in Paradise. And there isn't one.

It may be there now - admittedly - but it was not in the third heaven when Adam was in it - and it was not there in the days of Noah.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The word is not found in the OT for Eden. And neither does the NT speak of Eden calling it Paradise. (the Greek word for "Park")

Your problem is that you are trying to get some statement in the OT to say that Eden was in the Third Heaven - in Paradise. And there isn't one.

It may be there now - admittedly - but it was not in the third heaven when Adam was in it - and it was not there in the days of Noah.

Paradise means Garden. That is why the word Garden is translated Paradise, in many translations, from Genesis to Revelation.
Paradise, the Garden of God, has never moved. It is where the Tree of Life is in the midst of it, from Genesis to Revelation, and Jesus said so in Revelation.
It is in the third heaven. Paul said so, and he went there [else he knew someone who did].

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth); such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:4 How that he was raptured [caught up] into paradise,

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
God planted the Garden in Eden. Eden is the Holy Mount of God in heaven. Adam was taken there [raptured] to labor there and to guard it. That is what the Hebrew words say, in the Genesis account.
The Tree of Life was in the midst of it. It never moved.

Paradise is the Garden which is in the Holy Mount Eden of God in the third heaven, where the Son of Man in heaven [God the Word; the heavenly Father] sits on the throne, and is to where the Son of Man come in flesh on earth [the Son] promised the repentant thief on the cross that he would be with Him, in Paradise that very day of his death on the cross: though the Son of Man on earth descended to Sheol that day, the former thief ascended to Paradise in the third heaven when he died, as all believers do, since the Atonement was accepted once for all [for whosoever will receive].

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Jesus said that the Son of Man was in heaven and in New Creation flesh on earth at one and the same time, in John 3:13[/B]

Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven [to sit on the throne of Mount Eden, made for the Son of Man] but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Ezekiel 28 shows the Holy Mount of God is Eden, where Adam was, before he was cast down in a divorce from the Living Spirit [the Hebrew word used for Adam being driven out is the word "to divorce"].

Psalm 82, in the original Hebrew, shows a congregation of the sons of God/princes/rulers over earth from the heavenlies, being judged and warned to do justice on earth below or else they will die like Adam and be cast down/fall, like Adam, the one prince/son of God, former ruler set in Paradise above.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

indeed - the Apocryphal books are not part of the NT and they are also not part of the Hebrew Bible - the OT. But they claim to be written at a time that is before Christ - so they cannot be claimed by any Christian group as if that group has authority over them. It is a Jewish matter.

No, it is a matter for all the descendants of Enoch through Noah, which means the nations of the entire world. The DSS scrolls has the Genesis Apocryphon, which is a collection of the writings of the Patriarchs, and in it we read that Abram read to the wise men of Pharoah from the Book of Enoch, when they returned Sarai, and asked him to teach them "wisdom, values, and truth", so he read to them from the Book of Enoch; which of course, Abram got a copy of from Noah and Shem when he once lived with them, hiding out from Nimrod who wanted him dead.
Egypt then worshiped Amen [the faithful and true God] the Hidden God in heaven, as He is revealed in Enoch; but over time, they changed His Truth into a lie, like all nations do, as Romans 1 says, and Jesus is the the Amen, says Himself, in Revelation 3:14, who is the same God Egypt once worshiped in truth and changed His glory into a lie -we see the same thing today in the backslidden Churches in the world. We would not know the Truth of His Being if we did not have our own new birth revelation of Him, and His Word to us.

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;


Noah, Shem and Abraham were contempories, as Noah did not die until Abram was 58 years old; and Shem died much later and gave the blessing of firstborn to Abram, when Abram routed the four kings -one of whom was Nimrod, in Genesis 14; for Nimrod was called "Amraphael" because of the tower of Babel, meaning "in him, they -the people- fell]. Shem was the king of righteousness, priest of the Most High God, in Genesis 14, and Amraphael was Nimrod,

Shem outlived Abraham and lived even until after Joseph was sold as a slave into Egypt.

The books from the Patriarchs went from generation to generation, from Adam to Moses, and down.

Egypt once used the writing of the Book of Enoch and they worshipped the Hidden God in heaven [the Amen], in the Person of His Truth, and Secret to be revealed. They, like all nations, changed His glory to that of a created thing, but God has promised that He will bring Egypt back to Himself, a redeemed nation that once knew Him.
Isa 19:22 And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/amen-amen-ra.7759439/#post-63582426

 

[Hoghead1]

It certainly is true, Yeshuasavedme, that we must take into account the Apocrypha, if we are to have any real degree of understanding of ancient Judaism. It iwas canon among the diaspora in Alexandria; Jerome and the Catholic Church also take it as canon, and so did early Protestants. Even if you consider it isn't canon, still it is a major source of important information. In just about every mainline seminary, there is a whole course, required, on what is sometimes called the Intertestimental Period, where the Apocrypha and also other non-canonical books are carefully studied.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

It certainly is true, Yeshuasavedme, that we must take into account the Apocrypha, if we are to have any real degree of understanding of ancient Judaism. It iwas canon among the diaspora in Alexandria; Jerome and the Catholic Church also take it as canon, and so did early Protestants. Even if you consider it isn't canon, still it is a major source of important information. In just about every mainline seminary, there is a whole course, required, on what is sometimes called the Intertestimental Period, where the Apocrypha and also other non-canonical books are carefully studied.

All the writings of the Jews in the Dead Sea Scrolls and in the Ethiopian Orthodox collection, pre-Gospel era, are valid to study.
Enoch was used by the Jews, contrary to the arguments to the contrary, which can be refuted by just reading the history of it.
There is an interesting thing about Enoch, though, it was "hidden" as far as the western Church was concerned, until the late 1700's, and translated to English by several different men early 1800's. Then fragments of over 30 copies of it were found to be in the "Bible" [collection of books] of the Essenes of the Qumran caves manuscript stashes.

It seems to be that Enoch's own prophesy about his book has come to pass in these last days, but his first part stated it was for those living in the last days and in the days of tribulation.
Early Church "fathers" [but the sons are not the fathers, and they were the sons of the first father's indeed] did quote Enoch as others in the NT did, and they called it "Scripture" meaning as in sacred writing, in many documented places.
It is where the doctrine of the satans as created evil spirits in heaven, with one chief prince, was made clear. Satan is the Accuser, and his "angels" are not holy, but evil, and were created to be the evil angels. They are the accusers of the brethren who are cast down from heaven in the tribulation. They were created to do what they do, and they serve God in it, for they can do nothing without legal authority, which can only come from the Creator, and they know their end comes, to do what they do, when they will be shut into the kingdom of Darkness/The Lake of Fire, only, forever.

Enoch and Revelation are like bookends to the Torah and writings and the NT Gospel.

In Isaiah 29:10 -14 God said through Isaiah:
"For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered."

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

When the scrolls in the temple were burned by the Babylonians, the books were never all given back at the time Esdras & company re-wrote them, as is recorded in the "Apocrypha" of some Orthodox Church collections. They saved some back, that would only be given in the last days, they said.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Josephus points out that the Hebrew Bible as preserved in the temple in Jerusalem had not changed for over 400 years. No books added - none removed... according to Josephus.

See my above post. The books were burned with the temple, when Babylon invaded, and Esdras and Co re-wrote them. That is history. They did not give all of them to the priests.
However, the Essenes -the priestly class of the sons of Zadok- did have the copies of Enoch, and others.
As to Josephus, He tells us the history of the Maccabees in the wars of the Jews, which history in the "collection of Books" [Bible] of the period you are speaking of. History that is included in the "Bibles". Josephus even read it.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

``

 

[Hoghead1]

It is true that there are a number of references to the Apocrypha in the NT. And yes, the early fathers did cite from Enoch, as it was considered canon.

 

[BobRyan]

Jerome emphasized that the apocrypha was NOT canon in his Vulgate translation prologues. That means that in the 4th century they still knew that the apocrypha was not canon.

So it is not "Just the Jews" that knew that the Hebrew canon had not changed for 400 years as of the time of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

See my above post. The books were burned with the temple, when Babylon invaded, and Esdras and Co re-wrote them. .

There is no such thing as "re-wrote the entire Bible from nothing" in all of scripture. Not only was the Bible not in the temple at the time it was burned - neither was the ark of the covenant.

Josephus' statement stands.

What is more -- even Jerome knew in the 4th century A.D. that the Hebrew Bible did not contain the Apocrypha.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

There is not one original manuscript of the Torah, Book of Enoch, the prophets [of the Tenach], and hardly any of the NT writings originals', and you want to claim that the originals were not destroyed in the face of history?
Josephus came along a long time after the destruction of the "books".

Josephus did join himself to the Essenes in the wilderness, as an initiate, by his own testimony, and he had much respect for them but apparently did not stay. The Essenes had the books, but not the history book of the redaction of the writings of the Patriarchs, from the beginning to 17 years after Israel entered Canaan, and it contained the history of Moses' own life which is redacted for Moses' Torah account but referred to in it, which we know today as the Real Book of the Upright/Book of Jasher.
The Upright history has more corroboration to Torah than the Book of Jubilees, which was written as a pseudo Genesis and does not corroborate with but contradicts Torah and the prophets. Nevertheless, that book was used by the Essenes in the Diaspora and perhaps written by some or one of them, and its purpose was to make the Tarah the "be-all-end-all", which is exactly what God said HE would do, in Isaiah 29: he would hide their prophets and cover their seers, and the Book/Torah would not be understood by the literate or illiterate.
Because of that hiding of the prophets and covering of the seers, the Book of Jubilee was written with some true historical facts mixed with much made up contradictions to the Torah, and yet, it was used by the Jews as "truth" by the time Christ came incarnate and walked the earth for 3 1/2 years to bring His Gospel which the Torah itself was to be the "Instructions to that end goal., which is the Salvation in Christ by the Atonement".

They missed it, but the Messiah came and did not try to correct His people on the "correct versions" of truth, but declared Himself the Truth, the Way, and the Life, nor did He destroy their confidence in false facts that they had by that time been brought on. He just came and did what Enoch said He would do, and told the Jews, in John 5: 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Even Stephen, the first martyr, had been brought up on false facts that the Jews had because the prophets were hidden and the seers were covered, and those facts falsely believed in his day were spoken by him when he was being martyred, and yet, even though his speech is truly what he said, and is truly not corroborating with the facts of history in the Torah and true histories that do corrobrate with Torah, Jesus stood up tro watch his martydom and welcome His soul into His presence.

So it is Jesus alone who is truth, but for myself, I want to know how the Torah is laid out and what the roots are for the Gospel in the Oracles given only to the namesake people of the New Man Name to rehearse, until all are fulfilled, and which the Jews had the Message of covered, from them, because they did not understand the Message of Christ in the Torah's Living Oracles.

Paul, as a student of the true books and who disdained the fables in Jubilees that even Peter believed true, wrote facts that corroborated totally with the Torah, Enoch, and Book of Jasher.
[until Jesus gave him the lesson with the sheet lowered three times and he was commanded to "rise and eat"....which totally proved that Jubilees was not a truth book [and the Torah proves Jubilees is not truth]; but Paul had the copies of the books and told only the things that corroborated with Torah about the history and about the Gospel of Christ, which Paul could understand.. These things I have written about on other threads over the years, but I state it here in relation to Josephus. He wrote as truthfully as he had the information about, but some of his information was as much in error as what Peter and Stephen had, but which contradicted Torah Truths. So as a historian, Josephus is valuable, and the most valuable is what he saw and recorded, in his life.

 

[brotherjerry]

Sorry but the onus is on the claimant. You are the one claiming they were burnt up. You are the one claiming that someone re-wrote the Torah from nothing.

Bob never said we have the original manuscripts or that they were not re-written...but what we know from the history of the Jews and their writing traditions that are verifiable is that they were meticulous in transcribing their written word. When a scroll or parchment was becoming too worn then a copy was made. But making a copy is dramatically different than recreating something from memory as you suggest happened.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Sorry but the onus is on the claimant. You are the one claiming they were burnt up. You are the one claiming that someone re-wrote the Torah from nothing.

Bob never said we have the original manuscripts or that they were not re-written...but what we know from the history of the Jews and their writing traditions that are verifiable is that they were meticulous in transcribing their written word. When a scroll or parchment was becoming too worn then a copy was made. But making a copy is dramatically different than recreating something from memory as you suggest happened.

No, the "Canon" used by many orthodox Churches make the claim, not me.

4 Ezra...or the Jewish Apocalypse of Ezra.
" Finally, there is a vision of the restoration of scripture. God appears to Ezra in a bush and commands him to restore the Law. Ezra gathers five scribes and begins to dictate. After forty days, he has produced ninety-four books: the twenty-four books of the Tanakh and seventy secret works:

Make public the twenty-four books that you wrote first, and let the worthy and the unworthy read them; but keep the seventy that were written last, in order to give them to the wise among your people." (2 Esdras 14:45–46 RSV; 4 Ezra 12:45–46)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Esdras

 

[yeshuasavedme]

2 Esdras 14 NRSA
19 Then I answered and said, "Let me speak in your presence, Lord.
20 For I will go, as you have commanded me, and I will reprove the people who are now living; but who will warn those who will be born hereafter? For the world lies in darkness, and its inhabitants are without light.
21 For your law has been burned, and so no one knows the things which have been done or will be done by you.
22 If then I have found favor with you, send the holy spirit into me, and I will write everything that has happened in the world from the beginning, the things that were written in your law, so that people may be able to find the path, and that those who want to live in the last days may do so."
23 He answered me and said, "Go and gather the people, and tell them not to seek you for forty days.
24 But prepare for yourself many writing tablets, and take with you Sarea, Dabria, Selemia, Ethanus, and Asiel—these five, who are trained to write rapidly;
25 and you shall come here, and I will light in your heart the lamp of understanding, which shall not be put out until what you are about to write is finished.
26 And when you have finished, some things you shall make public, and some you shall deliver in secret to the wise; tomorrow at this hour you shall begin to write."
27 Then I went as he commanded me, and I gathered all the people together, and said,
28 "Hear these words, O Israel.
29 At first our ancestors lived as aliens in Egypt, and they were liberated from there
30 and received the law of life, which they did not keep, which you also have transgressed after them.
31 Then land was given to you for a possession in the land of Zion; but you and your ancestors committed iniquity and did not keep the ways that the Most High commanded you.
32 And since he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given.
33 And now you are here, and your people are farther in the interior.
34 If you, then, will rule over your minds and discipline your hearts, you shall be kept alive, and after death you shall obtain mercy.
35 For after death the judgment will come, when we shall live again; and then the names of the righteous shall become manifest, and the deeds of the ungodly shall be disclosed.
36 But let no one come to me now, and let no one seek me for forty days."
37 So I took the five men, as he commanded me, and we proceeded to the field, and remained there.
38 And on the next day a voice called me, saying, "Ezra, open your mouth and drink what I give you to drink."
39 So I opened my mouth, and a full cup was offered to me; it was full of something like water, but its color was like fire.
40 I took it and drank; and when I had drunk it, my heart poured forth understanding, and wisdom increased in my breast, for my spirit retained its memory,
41 and my mouth was opened and was no longer closed.
42 Moreover, the Most High gave understanding to the five men, and by turns they wrote what was dictated, using characters that they did not know. They sat forty days; they wrote during the daytime, and ate their bread at night.
43 But as for me, I spoke in the daytime and was not silent at night.
44 So during the forty days, ninety-four books were written.
45 And when the forty days were ended, the Most High spoke to me, saying, "Make public the twenty-four books that you wrote first, and let the worthy and the unworthy read them;
46 but keep the seventy that were written last, in order to give them to the wise among your people.
47 For in them is the spring of understanding, the fountain of wisdom, and the river of knowledge."
48 And I did so.

 

[brotherjerry]

But there is no corroboration that can be done. As I said before..I have the book of Bob that claims to be authored before Enoch and makes all sorts of other claims about Jesus. Prove it wrong. You can't, but that also does not mean you simply accept it because it is a book that talks about Jesus. The Quran talks about Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and the other prophets, do we accept it as part of Canon? No. Why is that? because much of what it says contradicts what is said in the Canon. As well as not being independently verified. What we have in the current Bible is largely cross verified within itself but by different authors at different times.

With many of the Apocryphal works we see things that contradict what we have in the canon, or things are not verified by other sources that we have in the canon. That is why they are often left out of the actual canon and left as deutercanonical works.

 

[Hoghead1]

You have to read Jerome more carefully. He sometimes doubted the Apocrypha, but also said this was his as well as a minority opinion. Also, in his correspondence, he does often refer to certain Apocrypha material as canon.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

But there is no corroboration that can be done. As I said before..I have the book of Bob that claims to be authored before Enoch and makes all sorts of other claims about Jesus. Prove it wrong. You can't, but that also does not mean you simply accept it because it is a book that talks about Jesus. The Quran talks about Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and the other prophets, do we accept it as part of Canon? No. Why is that? because much of what it says contradicts what is said in the Canon. As well as not being independently verified. What we have in the current Bible is largely cross verified within itself but by different authors at different times.

With many of the Apocryphal works we see things that contradict what we have in the canon, or things are not verified by other sources that we have in the canon. That is why they are often left out of the actual canon and left as deutercanonical works.

No, you are making a false claim about a so called "book of bob, to obfuscate the true history of the Book of Enoch -which yu do not even research from history for yourself.

As to contradictions in canon, you are not consistent and do not know the Word of God so well, do you?

If you knew the Word, you would know that the Torah gives 210 years of Israel in Egypt, but Stephen gives a contradicting account to the Torah of 400 years in Egypt. Stephan had faulty history because of the destruction of the Books at the time of the Babylonian invasion, and the substituting of a so called "oral" history, later written, that missed the facts of history because the books were destroyed.

Stephen was the first martyr of the LORD Jesus, and to go to heaven, you must be born again in Spirit like Stephen was, but being born again does not make you an expert on the true history. Study and corroborating histories do, which Paul did do, and he had access to the books that corroborate with Torah and gave the account truthfully, when he said, in Galations: "from the promise to the Law was 430 years".
So the promise was given to Abraham before even Ishmael was conceived, and before Isaac was conceived, of course, for Isaac was born when Abraham was 100, and Ishmael 15 years earlier, but the Promise was given before Ishmael was conceived.

Israel did not go down into Egypt until Jacob was 130 years old, and he was born to Isaac when Isaac was 60 years old, and Isaac was born to Abraham when Abraham was 100 years old. That makes 190 years, but the promise was given before Ishmael was born, and that adds 15 back to the promise, leaving us with 15 years; so the the years from the promise to the birth of Ishmael, which is also found in the writings, was 15, making Abraham 70 years old when the promise was given, which was given the first time Abraham entered Canaan, before going back to Hebron for a time, as the writings do say, but Moses redacts for the purpose of the story in Genesis, hitting the high points and not rewriting the history from scratch.

Then, to corroborate that, the Torah states that 70 souls from the loins of Jacob entered Egypt, but the list gives only 69, as the Jewish histories do declare, and that 70th was in the womb of her mother, and she was "born at the gate of Egypt", to Jacob. She was Jochebed, the mother of Moses.

So the Torah account tells us Jochebed was the mother of Moses, and she was the daughter of Levi, born at the gate of Egypt. Moses was 82 years old when he led Israel out of Egypt, and Jochebed was his mother, subtracting the 210 years they were in Egypt gives us her age when Moses was born, as 128. and born at the gate of Egypt, so she counted as the 70th, but not listed in the numbers which add up to 69. The reason being was that she was in the womb.
Then, subtracting the 210 from the 430 years that it was from the promise to the Law, as Paul also wrote, we see that the promise was 220 years before they entered Egypt.
Then, as Abraham was 100 when Isaac born and Isaac 60 when Jacob born and Jacob 130 when he entered Egypt, and Abraham 100 when Isaac born, we have the promise given to Abraham

Now, this is just one "contradiction" in the Bible, and it comes of error in faulty histories, but not because "Thus saith YHWH" is contradicted, just Stephen's history was faulty, but Luke recorded truthfully what he said at his martyrdom.
That does not make it true history, but does make it Stephen's own understanding.

Now, that being true, are you ready to toss out Acts, as contradicting the facts found in Torah?
No, but you should understand how to use the histories, not a "Thus saith YHWH", which the Jews never claimed the histories did, but as men writing accounts.
There are other contradictions in the "received canon", but they are not inn "Thus saith YHWH", but in the records men write, like discrepencies in Kings and Chronicles about the number of horses and chariots Solomon owned, and many others.
Even in the Gospel records, men write contradicting accounts about the number of persons Jesus healed or delivered in at least two instances. One said there were two blind men healed when blind Bartimeaus was healed, and one says only Bartimeaus; one says two men were delivered from legions of demons in the Gaderenes, one says only one was. Do you toss out the records as "contradictions" then, and not to be in canon??? No! you take history for history, and written by men, and "Thus saith YHWH" as exactly what it is, and that does not vary.