The existence Satan

[timur123456789]

Satan doesn't exist, but general evil.

 

[BobRyan]

Sin could only enter the world if Adam sinned. Having an Angel in heaven sin does not mean the world is now sinful. And even satan points out that he has been given the world - in Luke 4 - just as 2 Cor 4:4 calls him "the god of this world".

That only happens because of sin - Adam's sin as we see in Romans 5 "through one man's sin" not "through one angel's sin".

Ezek 28
“You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

All of Satan's life is described "past tense" as if he had already been destroyed.

You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.

The Bible describes some scenarios from God's POV - as seeing past, present and future - so one must be careful before presuming that Satan is currently a pile of ashes on the earth.

Satan was expelled from heaven when he lost the war.
The this world was created.
Satan took dominion on earth - when Adam fell .
But as we see in Job 1 and 2 - he could still go places that are not this world.
Then at the cross - the war advanced to the point that Satan was restricted to this world - cast down to earth. Hence "woe to the earth"

Rev 12
11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

Having only a "short time" was determined for him at the cross. Where he lost another battle because he could not stop Christ from being the atoning sacrifice -- sin offering - for the sins of the world..

 

[BobRyan]

Satan doesn't exist, but general evil.

According to what? the Bible? God?

 

[mmksparbud]

Satan doesn't exist, but general evil.

Are you saying that Jesus was lying--or are you saying the bible is all wrong??

Mat_4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Mat_12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Mat_16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mar_1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

Mar_3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

Mar_3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

Mar_4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Mar_8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Luk_4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Luk_10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Luk_11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

Luk_13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

Luk_22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Luk_22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Joh_13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Act_5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Act_26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

[brotherjerry]

Sin could only enter the world if Adam sinned. Having an Angel in heaven sin does not mean the world is now sinful. And even satan points out that he has been given the world - in Luke 4 - just as 2 Cor 4:4 calls him "the god of this world".

That only happens because of sin - Adam's sin as we see in Romans 5 "through one man's sin" not "through one angel's sin".

Ezek 28
“You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

All of Satan's life is described "past tense" as if he had already been destroyed.

You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.

The Bible describes some scenarios from God's POV - as seeing past, present and future - so one must be careful before presuming that Satan is currently a pile of ashes on the earth.

Satan was expelled from heaven when he lost the war.
The this world was created.
Satan took dominion on earth - when Adam fell .
But as we see in Job 1 and 2 - he could still go places that are not this world.
Then at the cross - the war advanced to the point that Satan was restricted to this world - cast down to earth. Hence "woe to the earth"

Rev 12
11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

Having only a "short time" was determined for him at the cross. Where he lost another battle because he could not stop Christ from being the atoning sacrifice -- sin offering - for the sins of the world..

Bob you are saying many things that I agree with. However, we are given no time for when Satan fell. The Bible does not say that Satan fell before man did. But what we do see is that when Satan was cast out of heaven, he was sent to this earth, which was not created until day 3. We only make assumptions that Satan fell before man. Many also claim that the angels were created during the 6 days as well.

So we either have to create some sort of gap that does not exist, some creation prior to creation, or we have to understand that Satan fell sometime from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 3:14.

 

[mmksparbud]

(Gen 1:1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
(Gen 1:2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Well, I kinda think (just my personal take)---that somewhere in time, who knows when, God set this planet in motion as it says, void, formless, dark, with water. It doesn't state how long it was in this condition before the creation week started and He made everything else. Could have been here very, very very long time---and Satan could have very well been sent to this earth before creation week even started. It will be where he will be sent again--to an empty, lifeless earth (bottomless pit) for a 1000 years. The saved will be in heaven, the wicked are dead until the 1000 years ends, there is nothing on the planet---home sweet home for a 1000 years.

 

[brotherjerry]

But then if Satan was here before man...then sin entered the world through Satan and not man.

 

[mmksparbud]

Sin entered the heavenly realm through Satan--but in hearkening to him, Adam and Eve fell and brought sin into this world. Satan only tempted them. Being tempted is no sin--Jesus was tempted--He did not sin.

 

[brotherjerry]

Sin entered the heavenly realm through Satan--but in hearkening to him, Adam and Eve fell and brought sin into this world. Satan only tempted them. Being tempted is no sin--Jesus was tempted--He did not sin.

You missed the point. If you believe that the earth was here for a long time before Adam and Eve and Satan was free to roam the earth, then sin entered this world through Satan and not man. The Bible says that all was good, if Satan was running round with sin on this earth, then all would not be good. Because sin is not good.

 

[mmksparbud]

No--you missed the point. Adam and Eve were sinless---they were tempted, they did not need to fall. They chose to obey another voice than God. Satan only tempted---they did not have to fall and could have remained sinless. If you want to believe otherwise, it is not biblical, as it states sin came through Adam,
(Rom 5:12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[brotherjerry]

I never said otherwise. As a matter of fact in a different thread that has similar discussion I have pointed out that Adam and Eve were created perfect and without sin.

You missed my point in that Satan was sinless as well when created. If he then sinned and fell long before man was created, and was free to roam the earth, then sin would have entered the world through Satan and not man. Which is something I do not believe in.

That is why I have tossed around the idea that Satan actually fell when man fell, Satan's rebellion against God was put into action by tempting Eve and ultimately causing man to fall.

 

[BobRyan]

I never said otherwise. As a matter of fact in a different thread that has similar discussion I have pointed out that Adam and Eve were created perfect and without sin.

You missed my point in that Satan was sinless as well when created. If he then sinned and fell long before man was created, and was free to roam the earth, then sin would have entered the world through Satan and not man. Which is something I do not believe in.

That is why I have tossed around the idea that Satan actually fell when man fell, Satan's rebellion against God was put into action by tempting Eve and ultimately causing man to fall.

Your suggestion that "sin enters" when Satan enters is difficult to support in places like Job 1 and 2 where Satan enters the council of heaven and appears before God himself. That places sin back in heaven and sin with God -- if the rule is that sin 'has entered' wherever Satan's "foot" is allowed to touch down. In Romans 5 we see this

"12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—"

Now we know that Eve sinned first.

According to Romans 5 Satan is allowed to be the devil tempting Eve - in the tree - and before Eve eats -- sin has not entered.

Then before Eve gives the fruit to Adam - sin has not entered.

Then Adam eats - and sin has entered.

Not because Satan was not already here before that.

Not because Eve had not already sinned before that.

But rather - because until both Adam and Eve sinned - there was still a sinless human on earth that had been given dominion over the earth and the earth could not be taken from mankind and given over to Satan until both Adam and Eve sinned.

But in your view 'Sin enters the world as soon as Lucifer sins, or at the very least until Eve sins in response to Lucifer's sin". Romans 5 does not appear to support that starting assumption.

I don't think the premise you are claiming, works.

 

[brotherjerry]

Actually not entirely accurate. I do not believe in any gap that would put Satan as dominion of the earth before Adam came around.

There are people who believe in a doctrine called the gap theory. Which places a pre-adamic creation happening in between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. That in this gap the universe was created, satan was allowed to run around on this world and it was his. But then God "recreated" this world for man. This doctrine fails on many levels of which part of it would state that sin entered the world through Satan, even though believers of this doctrine deny that.

My position that I am tossing around is that Satan had not fallen yet. This theory allows for Satan to be running around anywhere free and clear because at that time he was still an angel. The universe was created for man just as the Bible indicates, there was no hidden creation in a mysterious gap. And man had dominion over the world. So when Satan rebelled and tempted Eve, she sinned, Satan sinned by tempting her, Adam sinned by following Eve. The punishments fit with the descriptions we see of Satan falling later in the Bible when it says he was cast down to earth. The punishment for the serpent is also being cast down to the earth. Man is stripped of his dominion over the world and it is given to Satan. But because man had dominion when he fell, sin then enters the world. The world is corrupt and domicile for the Devil.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually not entirely accurate. I do not believe in any gap that would put Satan as dominion of the earth before Adam came around.

That is good to know.

Adam was given dominion of Earth - and Satan had no access at all to it - except at the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. And just as Satan did not cause all heaven to sin in Job 1 when he appears at the council with God and the other beings - so he did not cause the earth to be sinful or subject it to sin - simply by having access to that tree. Not until Adam fell was the earth subjugation handed over to Satan.

There are people who believe in a doctrine called the gap theory.

True. one form of the Gap theory is that God created the Universe (including the angels) and then at a later time the 7 day creation week of Gen 1:2-2:4 takes place when this earth, our sun, our moon, all life on planet earth etc - are created.

Another form of that "gap theory" is that an entire populated earth is "inserted" in the void of the what the text does not say - and that earth is destroyed in some fashion (in a flood like event also made-up/inserted) then another one is made.

Which places a pre-adamic creation happening in between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. That in this gap the universe was created, satan was allowed to run around on this world and it was his. But then God "recreated" this world for man.

Indeed of whole world of "insert" goes into that "gap". A lot of imagination -- bur the more direct "gap" is simply sticking with the text - and noticing that the 7 actual days of creation week only deal with our planet and our solar system.

The more direct, simple, obvious form of the gap - the one I pick.

This doctrine fails on many levels of which part of it would state that sin entered the world through Satan, even though believers of this doctrine deny that.

If the devil came to earth to rule it as the devil in rebellion against God -- and it was in fact turned over to him for that very purpose - then it would be hard to claim that sin was not on earth at that time.

My position that I am tossing around is that Satan had not fallen yet. This theory allows for Satan to be running around anywhere free and clear because at that time he was still an angel.

Well it is true that there was a time when Lucifer was not fallen - when he was free to go anywhere he wanted in all the universe - presumably doing the work that God assigned him. But that would all be a sinless state for all.

The universe was created for man just as the Bible indicates,

That is a bit of a guess that the Bible does not support - in Job 1 Satan comes from this world, in Heb 1 and in Heb 11 we are told that God made "worlds" not simply this one world. Satan comes from only this one ,, and only after the fall of Adam. Which means there are other worlds created by God as Heb 1 and 11 say - and they are not for man neither are all the other solar systems for mankind. In Gen 1 man is the ruler of this one world - this alone was given as man's dominion.

there was no hidden creation in a mysterious gap.

No "hidden creation" rather - look up - and you are seeing the universe that God created - but it is older than 6000 years. life on earth - and our Sun, our moon - etc are just 6000 years old.

Satan sinned by tempting her,

No text in the Bible describing Stan's fall - (Isaiah 14 and Ezek 28) mention Eve at all. I think we have to stick with the Is 14 and Ezek 28 reasons given in the Bible for lucifer turning into Satan -

And that happens long before Adam is created.

Adam sinned by following Eve. That we agree on.

Rev 12 and Satan falling later in the Bible when it says he was cast down to earth - happens after the cross according to Rev 12. Because in the war that starts in heaven - prior to the creation of mankind, a war that has been raging for 1000's of years in terms of battle between good and evil - there comes a point where Christ dies on the cross -- and at that point Satan can no longer roam the universe, can no longer appear at the Job 1 councils - rather he is truly limited to this earth.

Even so - his access to other worlds before that - would only be at the same level he had for this earth... just at their own tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The punishment for the serpent in eden - the literal snake - is that serpents no longer had wings as they used to have - they were forced to slither on the ground as a reminder to mankind of the real literal tempation event in the garden. And Satan himself is referenced in Gen 3 just as Christ himself is referenced. Christ bruises Satan's head - and Satan bruises Christ's heel.

Now so far - we have both been discussing what we suppose may have happened -- I have shown texts like Is 14 and Ezek 28 that point to the real reason for Lucifer's fall having nothing to do with Eve.

But let's put all that on the table for a minute. Someone was actually shown the war in heaven and the fall of Lucifer - why not read what they said about it as being slightly more valuable then you and I simply guessing?

 

[brotherjerry]

Hey Bob, thanks for the response.

Adam was given dominion of Earth - and Satan had no access at all to it - except at the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. And just as Satan did not cause all heaven to sin in Job 1 when he appears at the council with God and the other beings - so he did not cause the earth to be sinful or subject it to sin - simply by having access to that tree. Not until Adam fell was the earth subjugation handed over to Satan.

But what scripture do you have to support this? This idea would posit that Satan had already fallen, was full of sin and rebellion, but was not punished until after he caused man to fall?

Indeed of whole world of "insert" goes into that "gap". A lot of imagination -- bur the more direct "gap" is simply sticking with the text - and noticing that the 7 actual days of creation week only deal with our planet and our solar system.

But actually they don't. They deal with our universe entirely. Time was created on day 1.

That is a bit of a guess that the Bible does not support

Actually the Bible does support this. You would agree that the earth was created for man, correct? The Sun and the Moon were created to rule the day and the night for the earth which was for man, so by default they too were created for man. The stars are said to be for "signs and for seasons and for days and years" they were created so that man on earth could have more detailed time...so they were created for man as well.

No text in the Bible describing Stan's fall - (Isaiah 14 and Ezek 28) mention Eve at all. I think we have to stick with the Is 14 and Ezek 28 reasons given in the Bible for lucifer turning into Satan

Satan fell for reasons of his own...that is agreed. just as everyone sins for reasons of their own.

And that happens long before Adam is created.

So what verse says that?

he punishment for the serpent in eden - the literal snake - is that serpents no longer had wings as they used to have

What verse says they had wings? Gen 3:1 puts the serpent at the same level as the beasts of the field which would be legs, not wings.
But what you are then saying is that God punished an innocent species of animals because of the actions of satan. Man is held accountable for his actions, satan is accountable for his actions, but yet you are saying that God will punish the serpent because of Satan's actions?

And even with the witness of the war we are not given any time table for when the war happened. Which is what we ultimately been discussing

 

[BobRyan]

Hey Bob, thanks for the response.


But what scripture do you have to support this? This idea would posit that Satan had already fallen, was full of sin and rebellion, but was not punished until after he caused man to fall?

Punished as is war in heaven lost - cast out of heaven - but not confined to earth - and could go anywhere as in Job 1 and Job 2 - but without being able to harass the unfallen, sinless beings of earth (Adam and Eve) or any other such planet. Except at the forbidden tree located on each one of them.

As compared to a holy sinless Angel that was the most advanced of all God's finite created beings - ( so that is everyone except the Trinity) - the covering cherub in the presence of God - that was a great demotion.

But actually they don't. They deal with our universe entirely. Time was created on day 1.

Day 1 - light on this planet -- in the area of our solar system. But not light for the entire universe. Gen 1:1 is the entire universe long before Creation week. Gen 1:2 is day 1 for this planet "evening and morning" the entire universe was not having evening and morning - dark and light/ just this planet. Because it was rotating and had a single sided light source of some type created on day 1.

Actually the Bible does support this. You would agree that the earth was created for man, correct? The Sun and the Moon were created to rule the day and the night for the earth which was for man, so by default they too were created for man.

I agree with all of that. those are the only lights created on day 4 because only "Two" lights were created at that time. God had already created the stars long before that. So also the Angels -- long before that. It is not possible that Lucifer lived 3 days or a month and then decided to be the devil.

Even Eve "needed a devil" to tempt her. She was not about to just "leap off the cliff" on her own. And Is 14 and Ezek 28 both describe the fall of Lucifer as having nothing to do with Eve.

The stars are said to be for "signs and for seasons and for days and years" they were created so that man on earth could have more detailed time...so they were created for man as well.

Constellations would work that way for every planet in our Galaxy. The constellations in other Galaxies cannot even be seen by man on earth. I think you are stretching.

Satan fell for reasons of his own...that is agreed.

Indeed the Bible does not point to anything he did with Eve as the cause of his fall.

The Bible DOES point to something Eve did with the serpent as the cause of her fall.

So what verse says that?


What verse says they had wings? Gen 3:1 puts the serpent at the same level as the beasts of the field which would be legs, not wings.
But what you are then saying is that God punished an innocent species of animals because of the actions of satan.


Man is held accountable for his actions, satan is accountable for his actions, but yet you are saying that God will punish the serpent because of Satan's actions?

Animals don't have abstract concepts like "species punishment". It would be like saying that ants feel they have been unjustly treated because they live in holes in the ground. The action with the species of serpents was for the sake of man - the reptiles have no concept for it.

And even with the witness of the war we are not given any time table for when the war happened. Which is what we ultimately been discussing

ok - my next post will be most interesting in that case.

 

[BobRyan]

Clean and unclean animal distinctions in Gen 6,7,9 -- not explained until Lev 11 prove that not "Every detail" was given in the book of Genesis. So also John 8 "Abraham saw my day and was glad" -- a detail NOT reported in Genesis - because "not every detail was given in the book of Genesis" -- still those details do not contradict Genesis.

With that principle as context -- we move on.
====================================================================
Words like "Jesus Christ" or "Christ" in this description do not mean that any of the beings in Heaven knew God the Son as "The Messiah" or "The Christ" it is simply a term that we would relate to.

from: http://www.preparingforeternity.com/sr/srcontents.htm

"The Story of Redemption" -- an inspired source. So everything tested against scripture to see if it violates the teaching of scripture.

Chapter 1—The Fall of Lucifer
Lucifer in heaven, before his rebellion, was a high and exalted angel, next in honor to God’s dear Son. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing a powerful intellect. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. A special light beamed in his countenance and shone around him brighter and more beautiful than around the other angels; yet Christ, God’s dear Son, had the pre-eminence over all the angelic host. He was one with the Father before the angels were created. Lucifer was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which devolved on Christ alone. {SR 13.1}

The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that He might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon His Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by Himself that Christ, His Son, should be equal with Himself; so that wherever was the presence of His Son, it was as His own presence. The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son He had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was His Son to work in union with Himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. His Son would carry out His will and His purposes but would do nothing of Himself alone. The Father’s will would be fulfilled in Him. {SR 13.2}

Lucifer was envious and jealous of Jesus Christ. Yet when all the angels bowed to Jesus to acknowledge His supremacy and high authority and rightful rule, he bowed with them; but his heart was filled with envy and hatred. Christ had been taken into the special counsel of God in regard to His plans, while Lucifer was unacquainted with them. He did not understand, neither was he permitted to know, the purposes of God. But Christ was acknowledged sovereign of heaven, His power and authority to be the same as that of God Himself. Lucifer thought that he was himself a favorite in heaven among the angels. He had been highly exalted, but this did not call forth from him gratitude and praise to his Creator. He aspired to the height of God Himself. He gloried in his loftiness. He knew that he was honored by the angels. He had a special mission to execute. He had been near the great Creator, and the ceaseless beams of glorious light enshrouding the eternal God had shone especially upon him. He thought how angels had obeyed his command with pleasurable alacrity. Were not his garments light and beautiful? Why should Christ thus be honored before himself? {SR 14.1}

He left the immediate presence of the Father, dissatisfied and filled with envy against Jesus Christ. Concealing his real purposes, he assembled the angelic host. He introduced his subject, which was himself. As one aggrieved, he related the preference God had given Jesus to the neglect of himself. He told them that henceforth all the sweet liberty the angels had enjoyed was at an end. For had not a ruler been appointed over them, to whom they from henceforth must yield servile honor? He stated to them that he had called them together to assure them that he no longer would submit to this invasion of his rights and theirs; that never would he again bow down to Christ; that he would take the honor upon himself which should have been conferred upon him, and would be the commander of all who would submit to follow him and obey his voice. {SR 14.2}

There was contention among the angels. Lucifer and his sympathizers were striving to reform the government of God. They were discontented and unhappy because they could not look into His unsearchable wisdom and ascertain His purposes in exalting His Son, and endowing Him with such unlimited power and command. They rebelled against the authority of the Son. {SR 15.1}

Angels that were loyal and true sought to reconcile this mighty, rebellious angel to the will of his Creator. They justified the act of God in conferring honor upon Christ, and with forcible reasoning sought to convince Lucifer that no less honor was his now than before the Father had proclaimed the honor which He had conferred upon His Son. They clearly set forth that Christ was the Son of God, existing with Him before the angels were created; and that He had ever stood at the right hand of God, and His mild, loving authority had not heretofore been questioned; and that He had given no commands but what it was joy for the heavenly host to execute. They urged that Christ’s receiving special honor from the Father, in the presence of the angels, did not detract from the honor that Lucifer had heretofore received. The angels wept. They anxiously sought to move him to renounce his wicked design and yield submission to their Creator; for all had heretofore been peace and harmony, and what could occasion this dissenting, rebellious voice? {SR 15.2}

Lucifer refused to listen. And then he turned from the loyal and true angels, denouncing them as slaves. These angels, true to God, stood in amazement as they saw that Lucifer was successful in his effort to incite rebellion. He promised them a new and better government than they then had, in which all would be freedom. Great numbers signified their purpose to accept him as their leader and chief commander. As he saw his advances were met with success, he flattered himself that he should yet have all the angels on his side, and that he would be equal with God Himself, and his voice of authority would be heard in commanding the entire host of heaven. Again the loyal angels warned him, and assured him what must be the consequences if he persisted; that He who could create the angels could by His power overturn all their authority and in some signal manner punish their audacity and terrible rebellion. To think that an angel should resist the law of God which was as sacred as Himself! They warned the rebellious to close their ears to Lucifer’s deceptive reasonings, and advised him and all who had been affected by him to go to God and confess their wrong for even admitting a thought of questioning His authority. {SR 16.1}

Many of Lucifer’s sympathizers were inclined to heed the counsel of the loyal angels and repent of their dissatisfaction and be again received to the confidence of the Father and His dear Son. The mighty revolter then declared that he was acquainted with God’s law, and if he should submit to servile obedience, his honor would be taken from him. No more would he be intrusted with his exalted mission. He told them that himself and they also had now gone too far to go back, and he would brave the consequences, for to bow in servile worship to the Son of God he never would; that God would not forgive, and now they must assert their liberty and gain by force the position and authority which was not willingly accorded to them. [Thus it was that Lucifer, “the light-bearer,” the sharer of God’s glory, the attendant of his throne, by transgression became Satan, “the adversary.”—Patriarchs and Prophets, 40.] {SR 16.2}

The loyal angels hastened speedily to the Son of God and acquainted Him with what was taking place among the angels. They found the Father in conference with His beloved Son, to determine the means by which, for the best good of the loyal angels, the assumed authority of Satan could be forever put down. The great God could at once have hurled this archdeceiver from heaven; but this was not His purpose. He would give the rebellious an equal chance to measure strength and might with His own Son and His loyal angels. In this battle every angel would choose his own side and be manifested to all. It would not have been safe to suffer any who united with Satan in his rebellion to continue to occupy heaven. They had learned the lesson of genuine rebellion against the unchangeable law of God, and this is incurable. If God had exercised His power to punish this chief rebel, disaffected angels would not have been manifested; hence, God took another course, for He would manifest distinctly to all the heavenly host His justice and His judgment. {SR 17.1}

 

[BobRyan]

War in Heaven (contd from prev post)

It was the highest crime to rebel against the government of God. All heaven seemed in commotion. The angels were marshaled in companies, each division with a higher commanding angel at its head. Satan was warring against the law of God, because ambitious to exalt himself and unwilling to submit to the authority of God’s Son, heaven’s great commander. {SR 17.2}

All the heavenly host were summoned to appear before the Father, to have each case determined. Satan unblushingly made known his dissatisfaction that Christ should be preferred before Him. He stood up proudly and urged that he should be equal with God and should be taken into conference with the Father and understand His purposes. God informed Satan, that to His Son alone He would reveal His secret purposes, and He required all the family in heaven, even Satan, to yield Him implicit, unquestioned obedience; but that he (Satan) had proved himself unworthy of a place in heaven. Then Satan exultingly pointed to his sympathizers, comprising nearly one half of all the angels, and exclaimed, “These are with me! Will you expel these also, and make such a void in heaven?” He then declared that he was prepared to resist the authority of Christ and to defend his place in heaven by force of might, strength against strength. {SR 18.1}

Good angels wept to hear the words of Satan and his exulting boasts. God declared that the rebellious should remain in heaven no longer. Their high and happy state had been held upon condition of obedience to the law which God had given to govern the high order of intelligences. But no provision had been made to save those who should venture to transgress His law. Satan grew bold in his rebellion, and expressed his contempt of the Creator’s law. This Satan could not bear. He claimed that angels needed no law but should be left free to follow their own will, which would ever guide them right; that law was a restriction of their liberty; and that to abolish law was one great object of his standing as he did. The condition of the angels, he thought, needed improvement. Not so the mind of God, who had made laws and exalted them equal to Himself. The happiness of the angelic host consisted in their perfect obedience to law. Each had his special work assigned him, and until Satan rebelled, there had been perfect order and harmonious action in heaven. {SR 18.2}
Then there was war in heaven. The Son of God, the Prince of heaven, and His loyal angels engaged in conflict with the archrebel and those who united with him. The Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from heaven. All the heavenly host acknowledged and adored the God of justice. Not a taint of rebellion was left in heaven. All was again peaceful and harmonious as before. Angels in heaven mourned the fate of those who had been their companions in happiness and bliss. Their loss was felt in heaven. {SR 19.1}
The Father consulted His Son in regard to at once carrying out their purpose to make man to inhabit the earth. He would place man upon probation to test his loyalty before he could be rendered eternally secure. If he endured the test wherewith God saw fit to prove him, he should eventually be equal with the angels. He was to have the favor of God, and he was to converse with angels, and they with him. He did not see fit to place them beyond the power of disobedience. {SR 19.2}

Chapter 2—The Creation
This chapter is based on Genesis 1.
The Father and the Son engaged in the mighty, wondrous work they had contemplated—of creating the world. The earth came forth from the hand of the Creator exceedingly beautiful. There were mountains and hills and plains; and interspersed among them were rivers and bodies of water. The earth was not one extensive plain, but the monotony of the scenery was broken by hills and mountains, not high and ragged as they now are, but regular and beautiful in shape. The bare, high rocks were never seen upon them, but lay beneath the surface, answering as bones to the earth. The waters were regularly dispersed. The hills, mountains, and very beautiful plains were adorned with plants and flowers and tall, majestic trees of every description, which were many times larger and much more beautiful than trees now are. The air was pure and healthful, and the earth seemed like a noble palace. Angels beheld and rejoiced at the wonderful and beautiful works of God. {SR 20.1}

After the earth was created, and the beasts upon it, the Father and Son carried out their purpose, which was designed before the fall of Satan, to make man in their own image. They had wrought together in the creation of the earth and every living thing upon it. And now God said to His Son, “Let us make man in our image.” As Adam came forth from the hand of his Creator he was of noble height and of beautiful symmetry. He was more than twice as tall as men now living upon the earth, and was well proportioned. His features were perfect and beautiful. His complexion was neither white nor sallow, but ruddy, glowing with the rich tint of health. Eve was not quite as tall as Adam. Her head reached a little above his shoulders. She, too, was noble, perfect in symmetry, and very beautiful. {SR 20.2}

This sinless pair wore no artificial garments. They were clothed with a covering of light and glory, such as the angels wear. While they lived in obedience to God, this circle of light enshrouded them. Although everything God had made was in the perfection of beauty, and there seemed nothing wanting upon the earth which God had created to make Adam and Eve happy, yet He manifested His great love to them by planting a garden especially for them. A portion of their time was to be occupied in the happy employment of dressing the garden, and a portion in receiving the visits of angels, listening to their instruction, and in happy meditation. Their labor was not wearisome but pleasant and invigorating. This beautiful garden was to be their home. {SR 21.1}

 

[brotherjerry]

Punished as is war in heaven lost - cast out of heaven - but not confined to earth -

So Satan was punished twice? Once before the fall of man and then again for the fall of man? What Biblical refrences do you have for this?

As to Job 1 and 2...no doubt Satan was allowed to roam the earth and such, and could even come to heaven when called. But what specifically in those chapters tell you that Satan fell before man?

Day 1 - light on this planet -- in the area of our solar system. But not light for the entire universe. Gen 1:1 is the entire universe long before Creation week. Gen 1:2 is day 1 for this planet "evening and morning" the entire universe was not having evening and morning - dark and light/ just this planet. Because it was rotating and had a single sided light source of some type created on day 1.

So what you are saying is a creation before the creation, that Gen 1:1 is a creation and then the rest is a separate creation, or more specifically a more detailed isolated creation?

But this does not jive with the rest of the Bible.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Then we have the 6 days.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord mad the heavens and the earth....
We see reference to the heavens and the earth just as in Gen 1:1 as well as the 6 days referenced throughout the rest of Gen 1

Exodus 31:17 for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth
We again see the reference for heaven and earth as well as the six days.

I agree with all of that. those are the only lights created on day 4 because only "Two" lights were created at that time. God had already created the stars long before that. So also the Angels -- long before that. It is not possible that Lucifer lived 3 days or a month and then decided to be the devil.

Got any Bible references to say the stars were already created?

Constellations would work that way for every planet in our Galaxy. The constellations in other Galaxies cannot even be seen by man on earth. I think you are stretching.

Ummm. Well if we are going to say there is life on other planets you are correct, our constellations wouild not work for someone in another galaxy. But they would have their own constellations. The Bible does not say God created the Big Dipper....man names the constellations...God only put the stars there to be named.

Indeed the Bible does not point to anything he did with Eve as the cause of his fall.

The Bible DOES point to something Eve did with the serpent as the cause of her fall.

Who it was with is irrelevant when it comes to sin. Sin is a personal matter. Eve fell because she decided on her own that it was OK to eat the fruit. Man fell because he too felt it was Ok to eat the fruit...they determined for themselves what is good and what is evil.

Animals don't have abstract concepts like "species punishment". It would be like saying that ants feel they have been unjustly treated because they live in holes in the ground. The action with the species of serpents was for the sake of man - the reptiles have no concept for it.

Never said animals did have a concept of it...but man does. Do we not have laws for animal cruelty? Would we not consider it cruel to punish an entire species for the actions someone else? That is like our Breed Speicific Laws that we have that punish Pit Bulls as a species for the actions of a few terrible owners.

Also did not bring up any verse that says they had wings I noticed.

Your later posts...try quoting the Bible and not Ms. White. I understand you are 7th Day, and that is fine...but unless you can support your claim from the Bible then the claim in strictly an opinion. And while not every detail is not found in Genesis, the details that are needed are provided even if it is in a book later in the Bible, just as you have mentioned. And no where do we get a time frame for when the war took place.

 

[BobRyan]

So Satan was punished twice? Once before the fall of man and then again for the fall of man?

At the fall of man Gen 3 says "He(Satan) will bruise His (Christ's) heal, and that He (Christ) will bruise his (Satan's) head" - this is not Satan "getting punished again" - this is where he finds out how his final doom will be accomplished. It will happen through Christ - after having banished him from the courts of heaven - he will then have him confined to earth at the cross - and then in the final judgment of Rev 21 - Christ will have Satan subjected to the Lake of Fire.

As to Job 1 and 2...no doubt Satan was allowed to roam the earth and such, and could even come to heaven when called. But what specifically in those chapters tell you that Satan fell before man?

Well Satan existed before Man - he was already the devil the "serpent of old" according to Rev 12 - by the time he meets Eve.

And it is unthinkable that the perfect Angel Lucifer walks out on his first day of life - deceives 1/3 of the angels on their first day of life - then tempts Eve. That is over simplistic and nothing in the Bible supports it - as I presume both you and I would agree.

So what you are saying is a creation before the creation, that Gen 1:1 is a creation and then the rest is a separate creation, or more specifically a more detailed isolated creation?

I am saying that God created sinless angels and the entire universe in Gen 1:1 - that includes galaxies, solar systems, planets, you name it. Genesis 1:1.

Then the story zero's in on this solar system - this planet, life on this planet Genesis 1:2-2:4.

Then the story zero's in on Eden, Marriage, and the details about the two special trees in the Garden.

This does jive with the rest of the Bible.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Then we have the 7 day creation week.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth....

In Genesis 1 the "birds fly in the midst of the heavens" -- this does not mean the birds fly in outer space - it means
they fly on our atmosphere.

Got any Bible references to say the stars were already created?

In Gen 1 on day four - God made exactly "TWO" lights - not "a zillion and two".

But God is also the one that made the stars -- whether distant galaxies or constellations in our own galaxy or ...

Ummm. Well if we are going to say there is life on other planets you are correct, our constellations wouild not work for someone in another galaxy. But they would have their own constellations.

That is true - only those planets in our own Galaxy could see these constellations.

The Bible does not say God created the Big Dipper....man names the constellations...God only put the stars there to be named.

That is a bit of a stretch.

Eve fell because she decided on her own that it was OK to eat the fruit.

Not according to Genesis 2.

In Genesis 2 - Eve is tempted by the serpent-Satan and Adam is tempted by Eve.

The devil was tempted by no one in Eden - he was already the devil.

Never said animals did have a concept of it...but man does.

Exactly it was done to impress mankind - the reptiles have no concept for it.
Just as the fig tree cursed by Christ - was a less for mankind -- fig trees have no concept for it.

Also did not bring up any verse that says they had wings I noticed.

It was a "change" for the serpent to have to slither on the ground.

And as was pointed out with Abraham and the clean unclean meats details -- not every detail is spelled out in Genesis that later comes out as having... detail.


All of these "guesses" are based on what the Bible says - and filling in the blanks - your guess is as good as mine as long as you don't violate the doctrine in the text -- but I prefer two-points for a straight line when it comes to those non-doctrinal topics were a lot of guessing is going on to fill in the blanks. I will take an inspired source for that any day of the week if all I am replacing is my guesswork.

in Christ,

Bob