The existence Satan

[yeshuasavedme]

BobRyan said: ↑


Making stuff up without having any source at all -- as the "copy" is entirely bogus.

in the first instance you argue for the entire Bible made up out of whole cloth because you claim the one in the temple was left there to be burned by the Babylonians even though the ark of the Covenant and the Bible it contained were removed.

Now you are equivocating between that and some letters or a word here or there dropped or picked up - in text that is being "copied from" or "To" rather than a document that is being "made up from scratch".


The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that little to know mistakes were introduced over many centuries of time for example in the book of Isaiah.

You set up straw men to knock down, but you do not speak the truth about the issue or about what I have written from sources within the histories and the texts themselves.

I have never said anyone made anything up. Even Moses broke the first tablets God wrote with His own finger, and God wrote them again. There are no original manuscripts because the originals were destroyed, and Ezras says they were burned.


I have three books of the DSS translations and within them the translators do tell us that there are textual differences within the different copies of the scrolls the Qumran community did have.
They even print some of the differences, but nothing changes "Thus saith YHWH" within them.
The word itself is not divine, and the Message of the Word is Christ. The Torah is leter for letter preserved in the writings best of all, because that is an anointed writing, commissioned by God to be exactly what it is. But there is no original copy of the Torah in Hebrew anywhere.

Jeremiah's book was burned by a king, and Jeremiah had it written again.

Ezra says the books were burned and God commissioned him to write them again, as I posted in a prior thread, from 2 Ezras 12.
Histories are not divine, but are useful. There are contradictions that I pointed out in a prior post within the Gospels and the book of Acs to Torah, as to the time Israel was in Egypt, and the Torah account that shows they were not there 400 years, as Saint Stephen thought from reading faulty history, but 210. Not even those 210 were in slavery, for Israel lived in the best part of Egypt and were in favor as long as Joseph lived. Joseph lived to 48 years before Miriam was born, and her name was given to her by her mother as "bitter people" [in Hebrew] because by that time, Egypt had begun afflicting Israel.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

John 10, Jesus was at the Feast of Dedication, Feast of the Miracle of the Lights, which is Hannukah. He also began his ministry proclaiming that He is the Light.
Jesus was also incarnated at Hannukah, as Haggai prophetically states, in the Oracle of the second temple's laying of the Foundation Stone. that temple Haggai wrote of is only shadowed by the second temple of his time, and the Foundation Stone for that second Temple -as to human being flesh bodies- is the Christ come in flesh, Jesus/Yeshua, the Christ/Messiah.

 

[BobRyan]

You have to read Jerome more carefully. He sometimes doubted the Apocrypha, but also said this was his as well as a minority opinion. Also, in his correspondence, he does often refer to certain Apocrypha material as canon.

His prologues state clearly that the aprocryphal books do not belong in the Canon

Prologues of Jerome

Example --

BEGINNING OF THE PROLOGUE TO TOBIAS

1Jerome to the Bishops in the Lord Cromatius and Heliodorus, health!

I do not cease to wonder at the constancy of your demanding. For you demand that I bring a book written in the 3Chaldean language into Latin writing, indeed the book of Tobias, which the Hebrews exclude from the catalogue of Divine Scriptures, being mindful of those things which they have titled Hagiographa. I have done enough for your desire, yet not by my study. 6For the studies of the Hebrews rebuke us and find fault with us, to translate this for the ears of Latins contrary to their canon. But it is better to be judging the opinion of the Pharisees to displease and to be subject to the commands of bishops. I have persisted as I have been able, and because the language of the Chaldeans 9 is close to Hebrew speech, finding a speaker very skilled in both languages, I took to the work of one day, and whatever he expressed to me in Hebrew words, this, with a summoned scribe, I have set forth in Latin words.




Glossa Ordinaria

Standard Bible of the Middle ages –

In introducing each of the Apocryphal books states “Here begins the book of Tobit which is not in the Canon”

“Here begins the book of Judith which is not in the Canon”


In the Glossa Ordinaria "before each book of the Apocrypha a distinct notice is given that it is not canonical"


The Glossa ordinaria (pl. glossae ordinariae), Latin, "the ordinary gloss/interpretation/explanation", was an assembly of Bible glosses, from the Church Fathers and thereafter, printed in the margins of the Vulgate Bible; these were widely used in the education system of Christendom in Cathedral schools from the Carolingian period onward, and were only forgotten in the 14th century. For many generations, the Glossa ordinaria was the standard commentary on the Scriptures in Western Europe; it greatly influenced Western European Christian theology and culture. As professors read and expounded upon the Bible they would refer to these glosses, or commentaries; they also referred to them in the ordinary.



In the prologue to the books of Samuel and Kings, which is often called the Prologus Galeatus, he says:[13]

This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a “helmeted” introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is not found in our list must be placed amongst the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus, the Son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd are not in the canon. The first book of Maccabees I have found to be Hebrew, the second is Greek, as can be proved from the very style.

 

[BobRyan]

1. Apocrypha never accepted by the Jews. Never kept in the temple/sanct. Yet all real Hebrew scripture was kept in the temple.

2. Rom 3:1-2 Jews “entrusted with Oracles” of God – just as in 1Thess 2:4 Apostles “entrusted by God with the Gospel”. Jews never accepted the Trent Apocrypha

3. Council of Trent – April 8, 1546 – 59 men without any degrees in Hebrew, Greek literature, history… yet they decided to bless the apocrypha.

4. The same pope condemning Luther – also rejected the Apocrypha.

5. BF Westcott – 53 Prelates – not one scholar of historical learning at Trent.

6. No NT quote of apocrypha in NT prefixed by “it is written” or “scripture”, “thus saith the Lord”

7. No debate between non-Christian Jews and Christians in NT about the content of the OT text.

7. Pope Gregory the great, Jerome, Athenasias

9. Cardinal Cajetan who questioned Martin Luther – also rejected the Apocrypha

10. Canon adopted by Trent – not the same as the Canon of Hippo and Carthage and approved by Pope Innocent the I.

11. Baba Bathra – ancient Hebrew list of OT books – excludes the Apocryphal books – 19 books (exluding the 5 books of the law ) – so then 24 in total. Jewish sources always use 22 or 24 as the number of books

12. Roger Beckwith – “OT Canon in the NT Church” points out that the Jews had such a finalized canon that at one point they would not allow any newer/fresher copies of the books into the Temple – not just excluding new books but not even newer copies of the old books! Law, Prophets, Writings. (Hagiagrapha)

13. Josephus’ canon book count – 22. – relying on the same Jewish OT set finalized in the temple already at that time.

14. 1 Macc 4:46 9:27 14:41 states OT prophecy had ceased at the time that 1Macc was written.

15. 2nd Temple lacked 5 things which the first temple had – Aaron’s Rod, Ark of the Covenant, oil of anointing, Urim, Thumim, Spirit of Prophecy

16. Only a few ECFs quote from all apocryphal books

 

[yeshuasavedme]

That is a funny statement....when I go to the Christian book store, I find the vast majority of Bibles to contain only 66 books. It seems the denominations that use more than that, tend to be more secretive...they either don't want their people to read the Bible, or they want the money from printing the Bible for themselves and never license it out.

You really do not know the history of the English translations, do you?
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_2-Esdras-Chapter-14/

The KJV Authorized 1611 Bible was not 66 books, but all the Books the RCC had. It was not shortened until after the beginning of the 20th century, by the publishers, because of the politics of power of the Archbishop of
canturbury at the time of 1885.
Now here is the portion in the original English of the 1611 KJV authorized version, from the book of 2 Esdras 14, saying the "books were burned up", and God authroized him to re-write the books.

chapter 14:20
Behold, Lord, I will go as thou hast commanded me, and reprooue the people which are present, but they that shall be borne afterward, who shall admonish them? thus the world is set in darkenes, and they that dwell therein, are without light.

21 For thy law is burnt, therefore no man knoweth the things that are done of thee, or the works that shal begin.

22 But if I haue found grace before thee, send the holy Ghost into me, and I shall write all that hath bene done in the world, since the beginning, which were written in thy Lawe, that men may find thy path, and that they which will liue in the latter dayes, may liue.

23 And he answered me, saying, Goe thy way, gather the people together, and say vnto them, that they seeke thee not for fourtie dayes.
....

36 he chose 5 men and they did write them for 40 days, but they wrote 204, and only gave a few to the public, and saved the others in secret [The priesthood of Zadok/the Essenes, would have been given them].
Let no man therefore come vnto me now, nor seeke after me these fourty dayes.

37 So I tooke the fiue men as hee commanded me, and we went into the field, and remained there.

38 And the next day behold a voyce called mee saying, Esdras, open thy mouth and drinke that I giue thee to drinke.

39 Then opened I my mouth, and behold, he reached me a full cup, which was full as it were with water, but the colour of it was like fire.

40 And I tooke it, and dranke: and when I had drunke of it, my heart vttered vnderstanding: and wisedome grew in my brest, for my spirit strengthened my memory.

41 And my mouth was opened and shut no more.

42 The highest gaue vnderstanding vnto the fiue men, and they wrote the wonderfull visions of the night, that were told, which they knew not: And they sate fourty dayes, and they wrote in the day, and at night they ate bread.

43 As for me I spake in the day, and held not my tongue by night:

44 In fourty dayes they wrote two hundred and foure bookes.

45 And it came to passe when the fourty dayes were fulfilled, that the Highest spake, saying, The first that thou hast written, publish openly, that the worthy and vnworthy may read it.

46 But keepe the seuenty last, that thou mayest deliuer them onely to such as be wise, among the people.

47 For in them is the spring of vnderstanding, the fountains of wisedome, and the streame of knowledge.

48 And I did so.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Maccabees is history, just like Joshua, Judges, Kings, Chronicles, Ruth, Esra, Nehemiah,Esther...Acts, the Gospels, the letters...
Enoch, Torah, the prophets of the Jews, and Revelation are "Inspired".
The Gospel records are histories written by four [but more wrote I believe], and the letters are historical letters but not "thus saith YHWH", otherwise, why do ALL the Christians not obey Paul in ALL the things he wrote to the Churches, under his own oversight?
Revelation is the final word from God, and that is the opening up of what Enoch wrote in parables of the Son of Man and His kingdom, and the time of the end and the revelation and the last battle and the eternal Peace, to come.

 

[Hoghead1]

True about Enoch, Brotherjerry. However, the diaspora Jews living in Alexandria did consider the Apocrypha to be inspired and canon, which is what it is win the Septuagint.

 

[brotherjerry]

You really do not know the history of the English translations, do you?
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_2-Esdras-Chapter-14/

The KJV Authorized 1611 Bible was not 66 books, but all the Books the RCC had. It was not shortened until after the beginning of the 20th century, by the publishers, because of the politics of power of the Archbishop of
canturbury at the time of 1885.
Now here is the portion in the original English of the 1611 KJV authorized version, from the book of 2 Esdras 14, saying the "books were burned up", and God authroized him to re-write the books.

chapter 14:20
Behold, Lord, I will go as thou hast commanded me, and reprooue the people which are present, but they that shall be borne afterward, who shall admonish them? thus the world is set in darkenes, and they that dwell therein, are without light.

21 For thy law is burnt, therefore no man knoweth the things that are done of thee, or the works that shal begin.

22 But if I haue found grace before thee, send the holy Ghost into me, and I shall write all that hath bene done in the world, since the beginning, which were written in thy Lawe, that men may find thy path, and that they which will liue in the latter dayes, may liue.

23 And he answered me, saying, Goe thy way, gather the people together, and say vnto them, that they seeke thee not for fourtie dayes.
....

36 he chose 5 men and they did write them for 40 days, but they wrote 204, and only gave a few to the public, and saved the others in secret [The priesthood of Zadok/the Essenes, would have been given them].
Let no man therefore come vnto me now, nor seeke after me these fourty dayes.

37 So I tooke the fiue men as hee commanded me, and we went into the field, and remained there.

38 And the next day behold a voyce called mee saying, Esdras, open thy mouth and drinke that I giue thee to drinke.

39 Then opened I my mouth, and behold, he reached me a full cup, which was full as it were with water, but the colour of it was like fire.

40 And I tooke it, and dranke: and when I had drunke of it, my heart vttered vnderstanding: and wisedome grew in my brest, for my spirit strengthened my memory.

41 And my mouth was opened and shut no more.

42 The highest gaue vnderstanding vnto the fiue men, and they wrote the wonderfull visions of the night, that were told, which they knew not: And they sate fourty dayes, and they wrote in the day, and at night they ate bread.

43 As for me I spake in the day, and held not my tongue by night:

44 In fourty dayes they wrote two hundred and foure bookes.

45 And it came to passe when the fourty dayes were fulfilled, that the Highest spake, saying, The first that thou hast written, publish openly, that the worthy and vnworthy may read it.

46 But keepe the seuenty last, that thou mayest deliuer them onely to such as be wise, among the people.

47 For in them is the spring of vnderstanding, the fountains of wisedome, and the streame of knowledge.

48 And I did so.

I know it fairly well...and even in the original KJ Bible the Apocrypha was in its own section and not treated as authoritative or inspired works to be included in the canon. They were compiled as part of the Bible but that was it. They were good to read to get an understanding of the culture of the time, not to gain doctrinal or theological insight.

 

[brotherjerry]

True about Enoch, Brotherjerry. However, the diaspora Jews living in Alexandria did consider the Apocrypha to be inspired and canon, which is what it is win the Septuagint.

Actually it was included as it is regarded today by many, as important works about the period but not inspired works or authoritative works.

Consider these facts:
1) There is no clear definitive quotation of the Apocrypha by Jesus or any of the Apostles. However, Jesus and the Apostles cite the Old Testament numerous times and use phrases "as it is written", "Thus says the Lord" which is an indictment of their approval and acceptance of those books.
2) Jesus speaking in Luke 11:51 "From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zachariah" Abel was the first martyr in the book of Genesis while Zachariah was the last martyr in the book of Chronicles. In the Hebrew canon the first book is Genesis and the last book is Chronicles. By Jesus referring to Abel and Zachariah he was canvassing the entire Canon of the Hebrew Scriptures. This is by design a rejection of the Apocrypha as part of the Scriptures being referred too.
3) Romans 3:2 says the Jews "were entrusted with the oracles of God", and I have already show how historically they have meticulously maintained that. And this was never disputed by Christ in the Bible, and Jesus had many disputes with the Jews in the Bible. And the Jews do not include the Apocrypha as part of Canon.
4) The Dead Sea Scrolls themselves provide no commentaries on the Apocrypha but there are several commentaries on other books of the Old Testament. This could be an indication that even the Essene community did not regard them as highly as the standard Jewish Canon.
5) Many ancients also rejected the Apocrypha. Philo never quoted the Apocrypha. Josephus explicitly rejected the Apocrypha and listed the Hebrew Canon as it is today. The Jewish community acknowledges that the prophetic gifts had ceased in Israel before the Apocrypha was written.
6) Even the Catholic Church you have cited did not always accept the Apocrypha, it was added in the 16th Century...1546 at the Council of Trent to be specific. Quite likely in direct reaction to the reformation.
7) Many of the early church fathers rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture, and many just used them for devotional purposes. Jerome, Origen, Cyril, Athanasius to name a few.
8) The Apocrypha contains a number of false teachings.
- Forgiveness of sins through almsgiving
Tobit 4:11 "For alms deliver from all sin, and from death, and will not suffer the soul to go into darkness"
Tobit 12:9 "For almsgiving saves from death and purges away every sin. Those who give alms will enjoy a full life"
- Offering money and praying for the dead 2 Maccabees 12:44-45 "For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin."
- Commands the use of magic Tobit 6:5-8 "Then the angel said to him: Take out the entrails of this fish, and lay up his heart, and his gall, and his liver for thee: for these are necessary for useful medicines. And when he had done so, he roasted the flesh thereof, and they took it with them in the way: the rest they salted as much as might serve them, till they came to Rages the city of the Medes. Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee, brother Azarias, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou hast bid me keep of the fish? And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them."
8) Historical errors in the Apocrypha - For one Judith 1:5 "Now in the twelth year of his reign, Nabuchodonosor, king of the Assyrians..." Nebuchadnezzar was king of the Babylonians, not the Assyrians.

This is just a few reasons why the Apocrypha is not and should not be considered part of Scripture. No one is saying that they are of no value, for they do offer insight into the society, provide some historical value, etc. But part of Scripture which claims to be inspired...nope sorry.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I know it fairly well...and even in the original KJ Bible the Apocrypha was in its own section and not treated as authoritative or inspired works to be included in the canon. They were compiled as part of the Bible but that was it. They were good to read to get an understanding of the culture of the time, not to gain doctrinal or theological insight.

Well, it is documented somewhere -and I have read it- that the Archbishop of Canterbury of the time of the 1611 KJV pronounced anathema on any Church that did NOT include the second Canon in yearly Church reading schedules.
Then, playing politics of power, the Archbishop of Canterbury of 1885 declared anathema any church which DID include the reading of second Canon in yearly Church reading schedules [liturgies -is that how you say it?]. So the publishers began dropping the printing of them in their politically correct Canon's..[cause it was cheaper to leave them out]
They were also included in the Geneva Bible and brought to America in that Bible by the Puritans.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I know it fairly well...and even in the original KJ Bible the Apocrypha was in its own section and not treated as authoritative or inspired works to be included in the canon. They were compiled as part of the Bible but that was it. They were good to read to get an understanding of the culture of the time, not to gain doctrinal or theological insight.

Most of the Christian world does not agree with you.
Purim and Hannukah are celebrated in Israel. Jesus kept the feasts of Purim and Hannukah, as a Jew, and was conceived on the eve of Hannukah, as I showed in a prior post, which prophecy of His birth in Haggai 2 was long before Hannukah came to be declared a perpetual Feast time, in Israel. Esther and Maccabees tell us when these celebrations began.

This conversation has changed to obfuscate the fact that Satan is not a fallen angel as the Book of Enoch shows us and the Torah and prophets and Revelation show us.

Josephus used the histories to tell of the Wars of the Jews, and Josephus read and used Maccabees in writing the Wars of the Jews, plus; Josephus joined himself to the Essenes in the wilderness but did not take final vows. The Essenes left the Book of Enoch which they considered sacred writing, and they studied it, as there have been fragments of over 30 copies of that book discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls left by the Essenes.
Enoch is not supposed to be "canon", because canon is a man made list decision thing, not a Holy Spirit decision list thing, and is not supposed to be "in" the Torah/Tenach because it preceded the flood and is written for all nations; but the Patriarchs descended from Noah through Shem, in particular, had the Book of Enoch, and used it. Abraham was born before Noah died and was 58 when Noah died. Shem outlived Abraham, and Shem was the priest of the Most High God, the priest of righteousness [in Hebrew to English, MelcheZedek], who gave Abram the "Blessing" of firstborn, in Genesis 14.

As to quotes from the New Testament from the book of Enoch, Jesus Himself -and his womb brothers, Jude and Jacob/James- and Paul and Peter, quote from Enoch. I think there are something like 128 quotes from Enoch in the New Testament made by Jesus, but I think I found more, once, than was on that list.


Moses, serving as the "firstborn" as king and priest, who gave the office to Aaron of High Priest, not of king, as it had already been prophesied that the Levities were to be the priestly tribe in visions given to Levi himself. that is recorded in the Dead Sea [ that they wrote their own stories and had dreams and visions of what God would do is in the Dead Sea Scrolls collection of the writings of the Patriarchs, and titled "Genesis Apocryphon"].

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Brother Jerry,
Jesus said Abel was a prophet. The Torah does not tell us that Abel was a prophet. The Book of Jasher tells us what Abel prophesied, and Jesus fulfills that prophesy.
Jesus said the Father commits all judgment to the Son of Man. Enoch wrote that in His book.
Jesus said the Lake of Fire was made for the Devil and his angels [created evil spirits, all]. Enoch saw it on a tour of all creation in the universe and said it, in his book.
Jesus told us about a rich man and a beggar in Sheol, beneath earth, who died and went to different compartments there, where the unrepentant rich man was tormented in flames and saw Lazarus with Abraham, being comforted, and asked that Lazarus could be sent with just a drop of water for his tongue. Luke 16 shows those men [waiting in their places in Sheol just like Enoch described them, when he saw the compartments of Sheol below earth. There were "bright springs of water" for the righteous who were waiting there for the Atonement and their release, but in comfort while they waited; but separate chasms where the wicked were tormented in flames, and no crossing over.

Jesus has many, many, many, many... such things He said, as recorded in the Gospels, that were not in the "OT", but were in Enoch.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

That is a funny statement....when I go to the Christian book store, I find the vast majority of Bibles to contain only 66 books. It seems the denominations that use more than that, tend to be more secretive...they either don't want their people to read the Bible, or they want the money from printing the Bible for themselves and never license it out.

If you had gone to get an English translation Bible from a publisher in Geneva, or early American colonies up to the 1900's, and in England or Scotland from 1611 to early 1900's, it would have included the same as the Roman Catholic Douay Rheims English version 1610, did.
So you are coming from a narrow modern view based on wrong historical information.

The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible included many of what is called second canon today.

Dead Sea scrolls, from Wikipedia:

"Fragments of three deuterocanonical books have been found among the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran, in addition to several partial copies of I Enoch and Jubilees from the Ethiopic deuterocanon. Sirach, whose Hebrew text was already known from the Cairo Geniza, has been found in two scrolls (2QSir or 2Q18, 11QPs_a or 11Q5) in Hebrew. Another Hebrew scroll of Sirach has been found in Masada (MasSir).[8]:597 The Book of Tobit has been found in Qumran in four scrolls written in Aramaic and in one written in Hebrew.[8]:636 The Letter of Jeremiah (or Baruch chapter 6) has been found in cave 7 (papyrus 7Q5) in Greek.[8]:628 {B]It has been theorized by recent scholars[9] that the Qumran library was not entirely produced at Qumran, but may have included part of the library of the Jerusalem Temple, that may have been hidden in the caves for safekeeping at the time the Temple was destroyed by Romans in 70 AD[/B].

 

[brotherjerry]

Most of the Christian world does not agree with you.

This is completely untrue. Considering even the Catholic Church does not consider the Apocrypha part of Scriptures and most of the Protestant world does not as well, then it is very easy to say that most of the Christian world does not acknowledge teh Apocrypha as Scripture, as something authoritative or inspired.

Purim and Hannukah are celebrated in Israel

of course they are....they are Jewish festivals.

This conversation has changed to obfuscate the fact that Satan is not a fallen angel as the Book of Enoch shows us and the Torah and prophets and Revelation show us.

Which I have shown you using the the Bible as we have it (66 books) that is an incorrect statement.

As to quotes from the New Testament from the book of Enoch, Jesus Himself -and his womb brothers, Jude and Jacob/James- and Paul and Peter, quote from Enoch. I think there are something like 128 quotes from Enoch in the New Testament made by Jesus, but I think I found more, once, than was on that list.

No there is not. Start small...try citing 10 direct quotes.

Josephus used the histories to tell of the Wars of the Jews, and Josephus read and used Maccabees in writing the Wars of the Jews, plus; Josephus joined himself to the Essenes in the wilderness but did not take final vows. The Essenes left the Book of Enoch which they considered sacred writing, and they studied it, as there have been fragments of over 30 copies of that book discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls left by the Essenes.

But amazingly even the Essense who had written several, what we would call commentaries, on many other books of what we have as our current 66 books of the Bible, did not have any written on Enoch or any of the other Apocryphal works. This is an indication that while they thought they were relevant to keep, as they also has other secular works in Qumran, they did not feel they were important enough to put translational notes, commentary notes, preaching notes, or anything else with them.

Jesus said Abel was a prophet. The Torah does not tell us that Abel was a prophet. The Book of Jasher tells us what Abel prophesied, and Jesus fulfills that prophesy.
Jesus said the Father commits all judgment to the Son of Man. Enoch wrote that in His book.
Jesus said the Lake of Fire was made for the Devil and his angels [created evil spirits, all]. Enoch saw it on a tour of all creation in the universe and said it, in his book.
Jesus told us about a rich man and a beggar in Sheol, beneath earth, who died and went to different compartments there, where the unrepentant rich man was tormented in flames and saw Lazarus with Abraham, being comforted, and asked that Lazarus could be sent with just a drop of water for his tongue. Luke 16 shows those men [waiting in their places in Sheol just like Enoch described them, when he saw the compartments of Sheol below earth. There were "bright springs of water" for the righteous who were waiting there for the Atonement and their release, but in comfort while they waited; but separate chasms where the wicked were tormented in flames, and no crossing over.

Jesus has many, many, many, many... such things He said, as recorded in the Gospels, that were not in the "OT", but were in Enoch.

the Book of Bob I talked about...has the same thing...funny how a book that was written after others can refer back to those and use the same references .
Consider this with what we have of the 66 books, that differs tremendously with Enoch. The manuscripts and fragments we have of Enoch are obviously translations as there are terms and gammatical elements that did not exist at the time of Enoch...for example the sabbath did not come about until Moses, but Enoch mentions it. So we obviously have nothing but a later translation. Early forms of Hebrew as well as Greek existed at the time of Enoch, but yet what Enoch wrote was not preserved? See unlike the other books of the Bible (of which we have hundreds if not thousands of extants and manuscripts), we find very little in differences of the wording. This means that copies we have of Genesis for example that date to the first century BC retain the same literary structure as a copy we may have that would date to 500 BC...and you know as well as I do every generation has their own words for things, but this has not been true when it comes to the 66 books of the Bible. But we do see that with Enoch because we see terms, phrases, words, used that were not in use at the time of Enoch, not only from outside of the Bible, but also from within the Bible. (IE Sabbath).

There are also contradictions in Encoh that cause conflict with the 66 books.
13:5-6, 14:4-5,7 appear to imply that fallen angels canot talk to God, which we know from Job directly that they can. These verses also indicate that these follen angels were repentant and sought Enoch to interceded on their behalf, and they were not received back by God....very odd doctrine indeed.
10:8 Ascribes all sin of the fallen angels to Azazel, when we know that the devil (Satan) is the leader of the fallen angels.
14 gives a description of Heaven that conflicts with many Scriptures that describe Heaven.
20 gets the roles of Michael and Gabriel mixed up if comparing to Scripture
22 Contradicts the Scriptural description of the past, present, and future dwelling places for the righteous who die.
40:7 Talks about the "Satans" in a plural form. This is different from Scripture which gives that name to only one fallen angel. I have cited many of those verses. It also implies that Satan can't stand in God's presence which is contrary to Job.
521:1 says Sheol and Hell will give back to the earth, which is not found in Scripture...oh and "Hell" is a NT term and not found in the OT or in any Jewish writings. Mainly because Before Christ Sheol was the place.
Lets also remind you that the overall theme of Enoch is that he cam back down to earth, which in and of itself is not Scriptural

That was just a small sampling of contradictions with the 66 books we have of the Bible. Let alone some of the scientific problems such as counting the stars, the wind, sun and moon being in containers, etc.

The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible included many of what is called second canon today

Never disagreed with that. But even the Catholics do not consider the deuterocanonical books to be Scripture, to be inspired, authoritative. They are included as ancient works to be read for historical and perhaps devotional work, but not to build doctrine or theology upon. There is too much in most of them that conflict with what is accepted to be inspired works from God. And what have proven to be preserved works by God, moreso than any of the apocryphical works.

 

[BobRyan]

If you had gone to get an English translation Bible from a publisher in Geneva, or early American colonies up to the 1900's, and in England or Scotland from 1611 to early 1900's, it would have included the same as the Roman Catholic Douay Rheims English version 1610, did.

Bibles in the 1900's and 1800's that included the Apocrypha (and were not Catholic) stated that those books were "Apocryphal" and not canon.

 

[BobRyan]

True about Enoch, Brotherjerry. However, the diaspora Jews living in Alexandria did consider the Apocrypha to be inspired and canon, which is what it is win the Septuagint.

The Hebrew Bible did not contain the Apocrypha and most Jews knew that at the time.

 

[BobRyan]

Jerome's prologues state clearly that the aprocryphal books do not belong in the Canon and so also does the

Glossa Ordinaria -- Standard Bible of the Middle ages – which took its information primarily from Jerome's prologues regarding what is and what is not true Bible canon.

That was centuries BEFORE any so-called "Protestant Bible" was widely distributed.


Prologues of Jerome

Example --

BEGINNING OF THE PROLOGUE TO TOBIAS

1Jerome to the Bishops in the Lord Cromatius and Heliodorus, health!

I do not cease to wonder at the constancy of your demanding. For you demand that I bring a book written in the 3Chaldean language into Latin writing, indeed the book of Tobias, which the Hebrews exclude from the catalogue of Divine Scriptures, being mindful of those things which they have titled Hagiographa. I have done enough for your desire, yet not by my study. 6For the studies of the Hebrews rebuke us and find fault with us, to translate this for the ears of Latins contrary to their canon. But it is better to be judging the opinion of the Pharisees to displease and to be subject to the commands of bishops. I have persisted as I have been able, and because the language of the Chaldeans 9 is close to Hebrew speech, finding a speaker very skilled in both languages, I took to the work of one day, and whatever he expressed to me in Hebrew words, this, with a summoned scribe, I have set forth in Latin words.





In introducing each of the Apocryphal books states “Here begins the book of Tobit which is not in the Canon”

“Here begins the book of Judith which is not in the Canon”


In the Glossa Ordinaria "before each book of the Apocrypha a distinct notice is given that it is not canonical"


The Glossa ordinaria (pl. glossae ordinariae), Latin, "the ordinary gloss/interpretation/explanation", was an assembly of Bible glosses, from the Church Fathers and thereafter, printed in the margins of the Vulgate Bible; these were widely used in the education system of Christendom in Cathedral schools from the Carolingian period onward, and were only forgotten in the 14th century. For many generations, the Glossa ordinaria was the standard commentary on the Scriptures in Western Europe; it greatly influenced Western European Christian theology and culture. As professors read and expounded upon the Bible they would refer to these glosses, or commentaries; they also referred to them in the ordinary.



In the prologue to the books of Samuel and Kings, which is often called the Prologus Galeatus, he says:[13]

This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a “helmeted” introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is not found in our list must be placed amongst the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus, the Son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd are not in the canon. The first book of Maccabees I have found to be Hebrew, the second is Greek, as can be proved from the very style.[/QUOTE]

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Bibles in the 1900's and 1800's that included the Apocrypha (and were not Catholic) stated that those books were "Apocryphal" and not canon.

No, not all. Some called them second canon.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

No, not all. Some called them second canon.

there was no Jewish "canon" until after Jesus was rejected by the Jews, and then they made a canon.
canon means list, and the list of books written that are mentioned in the OT that we do not have today are not a few
canon means list, but Bible means a collection of books/manuscripts.
The Bible of the Essene community agrees with many Orthodox Church canons, and they even had Enoch. The Ethiopian Orthodox which is founded by diaspora Jews who received the Gospel has the largest canon list of all Christian Churches. They have Enoch. So does one other Orthodox Church, which I think is the Armenian, but read it on Summascriptura's thread about Enoch.

 

[Hoghead1]

That is not at all accurate, Brotherjerry. Catholicism does in fact consider the Apocrypha to be a definite part of the Bible. That was reinstated and ratified at the Council of Trent.