The existence Satan

[Hoghead1]

Bob, you need to look mare carefully at Jerome. The situation is more complex. Initially, he seemed to have worked mostly from the Septuagint, the later, moved more to the Hebrew texts. Whether or not he extensively went on the Hebrew texts is still a matter of debate. He made more than on statement about the Apocrypha, wh9ich, apparently, many Christians including Augustine and the pope, seemed to want in the Bible. At first, he w somewhat skeptical, but later on tended to accept them as canon.
Also, Bob, it think it would be very helpful to myself and others here fi you could be a little clearer what primary sources you are working from. Are you speaking about Scripture, the Virgin Birth, Resurrection, etc., from the standpoint of traditional Christianity, or are you speaking about those matters exclusively from the standpoint of Ellen White, prophetess, High Priestess and founder of your religion. If the latter, and I suspect you are, that I can well understand why you have trouble with the claims of major Chrsitian creeds, Confessions, and also JUdaeo-Chrstiian dominated areas sucha s contemporary biblical sltudis.

 

[Hoghead1]

Computer glitch. Last two sentences shod read "of major Christian Christian creeds, Confessions, and also Judeo-Christian-dominated areas of scholarshipsuch as contemporary biblical studies.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

ysm:

As to quotes from the New Testament from the book of Enoch, Jesus Himself -and his womb brothers, Jude and Jacob/James- and Paul and Peter, quote from Enoch. I think there are something like 128 quotes from Enoch in the New Testament made by Jesus, but I think I found more, once, than was on that list.

No there is not. Start small...try citing 10 direct quotes. .

If you have read the Bible with love of the Scriptures and have had questions about the foundation of the things mentioned there but not made clear without the foundation, then the Book of Enoch is a delight, clearing up these things.
You want only ten, I will give you ten, but then you need to do your own personal reading of the Scriptures first, and then the Book of Enoch, to see the origin of the Gospel of Christ, and Jesus Christ in Enoch as God the Word, now come in flesh, As Enoch said He was to come; and Enoch saw Him hidden in God, with God, and He was God, and He was to come, and in His name the righteous will be saved.
That is the Gospel from Enoch, about the Son of Man in heaven.

1. Enoch opens with the Son of Man coming with ten thousands of angels, to judge the earth.
That is not in Torah, but in Enoch.

Mat 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Enoch 1:
9And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. [/B]

2 The sum of all judgment given to the Son of Man:
Jhn 5:26, 27
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Enoch 69:
26And there was great joy amongst them,
And they blessed and glorified and extolled
Because the name of that Son of Man had been revealed unto them.

27And he sat on the throne of his glory,
And the sum of judgement was given unto the Son of Man,[/B]

3: your names are written in heaven
Luk 10:20
Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Enoch 104:
104 I swear unto you, that in heaven the angels remember you for good before the glory of the Great One: and your names are written before the glory of the Great One.[/B]

4 The angels in heaven do not marry nor give in marriage:
Mat 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.


Enoch 15:
15 And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: "Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice. 2And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: 'You should intercede for men, and not men for you: 3Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children of earth, and begotten giants as your sons? 4And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten children with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish. 5Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. 6But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. 7And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.

5 in the resurrection, the saints shall be equal with, companions of, the angels in heaven.
Enoch 104:
6And now fear not, ye righteous, when ye see the sinners growing strong and prospering in their ways: be not companions with them, but keep afar from their violence; for ye shall become companions of the hosts of heaven.

6 Many Habitations:
John 14:2
In my father's house are many habitations.[?]
Enoch 45: 3
3On that day Mine Elect One shall sit on the throne of glory
And shall try their works,
And their places of rest shall be innumerable.
& another translation:
In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations.

7 The Throne of Glory that Jesus/The Messiah/God's Elect Son, will sit upon:
The Father's Throne, that the Son will sit upon:

Enoch 51:
3And the Elect One shall in those days sit on My throne,
And his mouth shall pour forth all the secrets of wisdom and counsel:
For the Lord of Spirits hath given them to him and hath glorified him.

Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory.
Enoch 51: 3And the Elect One shall in those days sit on My throne,

And his mouth shall pour forth all the secrets of wisdom and counsel:
For the Lord of Spirits hath given them to him and hath glorified him.

55: 4Ye mighty kings who dwell on the earth, ye shall have to behold Mine Elect One, how he sits on the throne of glory and judges Azazel, and all his associates, and all his hosts in the name of the Lord of Spirits."
61: 8And the Lord of Spirits placed the Elect One on the throne of glory.
And he shall judge all the works of the holy above in the heaven,
And in the balance shall their deeds be weighed.

62: 62 And thus the Lord commanded the kings and the mighty and the exalted, and those who dwell on the earth, and said: "Open your eyes and lift up your horns if ye are able to recognize the Elect One."

2And the Lord of Spirits seated him on the throne of His glory,
And the spirit of righteousness was poured out upon him,
And the word of his mouth slays all the sinners,
And all the unrighteous are destroyed from before his face.

5And one portion of them shall look on the other,
And they shall be terrified,
And they shall be downcast of countenance,
And pain shall seize them,
When they see that Son of Man
Sitting on the throne of his glory.

8 We will be one with the Father and the Son:
Jhn 17:11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Jhn 17:22
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Enoch 105:
2For I and My Son will be united with them for ever in the paths of uprightness in their lives; and ye shall have peace: rejoice, ye children of uprightness. Amen.
````
9. The throne of Glory, and thrones of Glory :
Enoch 108:
11"And now I will summon the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who in the flesh were not recompensed with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. 12And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved My holy name, and I will seat each on the throne of his honour. 13And they shall be resplendent for times without number; for righteousness is the judgement of God; for to the faithful He will give faithfulness in the habitation of upright paths.
Rev 20:4 -delivered from Jesus, by the angel, to John, to write, about the thrones of glory that Enoch wrote of, for us:
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Mat 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

10. the lake of fire where sinners are cast -minus the Adam spirit, which perishes/is rendered useless, never rising from the depths of earth, and bodies cast there are the never dying worms, without the spirit [can never metamorphose into the glorious image of the Son of God]
Matthew 13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire.

Matthew 25:41
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Enoch 108:

2Ye who have done good shall wait for those days till an end is made of those who work evil, and an end of the might of the transgressors. 3And wait ye indeed till sin has passed away, for their names shall be blotted out of the book of life and out of the holy books, and their seed shall be destroyed for ever, and their spirits shall be slain, and they shall cry and make lamentation in a place that is a chaotic wilderness, and in the fire shall they burn; for there is no earth there.

4And I saw there something like an invisible cloud; for by reason of its depth I could not look over, and I saw a flame of fire blazing brightly, and things like shining mountains circling and sweeping to and fro.

5And I asked one of the holy angels who was with me and said unto him: "What is this shining thing? for it is not a heaven but only the flame of a blazing fire, and the voice of weeping and crying and lamentation and strong pain."

6And he said unto me: "This place which thou seest- here are cast the spirits of sinners and blasphemers, and of those who work wickedness, and of those who pervert everything that the Lord hath spoken through the mouth of the prophets- even the things that shall be.[/B][/B]

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Computer glitch. Last two sentences shod read "of major Christian Christian creeds, Confessions, and also Judeo-Christian-dominated areas of scholarshipsuch as contemporary biblical studies.

I have that problem a lot in posting with a small iphone or small tablet. I have only a tiny screen to see and fingers make mistakes I don't catch and sp check changes some wrongly, and I cannot see the mistakes until I post, but I edit them when I see them on the big screen.
You can go to the left botton and click edit, and fix it.
My little bluetooth tablet does not always catch the letters I finger, and they are even missing sometimes....I hate to set up the big screen computer. It isn't fast and easy, which the small tablet is, but I do have lots of errors to correct.

 

[Hoghead1]

Wish I could do that. I hoe a really crazy computer. It's been worked on twice recently and still is goofy. The problem I am having here is that it posts responses before I send them. That's what I mean by a computer glitch.

 

[brotherjerry]

there was no Jewish "canon" until after Jesus was rejected by the Jews, and then they made a canon.
canon means list, and the list of books written that are mentioned in the OT that we do not have today are not a few
canon means list, but Bible means a collection of books/manuscripts.
The Bible of the Essene community agrees with many Orthodox Church canons, and they even had Enoch. The Ethiopian Orthodox which is founded by diaspora Jews who received the Gospel has the largest canon list of all Christian Churches. They have Enoch. So does one other Orthodox Church, which I think is the Armenian, but read it on Summascriptura's thread about Enoch.

Incorrect. The Jews had established their canon centuries before Christ.
And Canon, when speaking of religion, is a list of books considered sacred and accepted as genuine. Even when considering secular writings or stories...canon is that which is only accepted as fitting into the narrative...there were dozens of "Star Wars" books written over the years, but only a handful were ever considered part of the canon that Lucas had established. He never said that some of the other stories did not happen, but any that conflicted with the direction of the universe that he established were never considered canon...they were just good reading.

 

[brotherjerry]

That is not at all accurate, Brotherjerry. Catholicism does in fact consider the Apocrypha to be a definite part of the Bible. That was reinstated and ratified at the Council of Trent.

Yes it is part of their Bible, but it is not considered Scripture...that is being inspired and authoritative.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Wish I could do that. I hoe a really crazy computer. It's been worked on twice recently and still is goofy. The problem I am having here is that it posts responses before I send them. That's what I mean by a computer glitch.

I sometimes open my old Thunderbird email [which still wants to route to an ISP that we dropped a year ago. We use just TMobile cell data for internet connection on the phone and hotspot to the computer or tablet], and compose my reply there, as if I were going to send an email, and then copy and paste it to the forum. That is the only way I can control the or see the mistakes and correct them before they go out.
I don't have word [had it on another computer and lost the info -the key- to installing it on the newer one], so the thunderbird email on my computer serves me as if it was a word document.
If I took the time to do that more often, I would make easier to understand posts and not have to edit so much.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Yes it is part of their Bible, but it is not considered Scripture...that is being inspired and authoritative.

No, not so.
The Word Bible means collection of books/manuscripts, and that which is considered "Holy" was in the collections.
There was no canon list made by any decree of any religious ruler in Israel until after the Christ in flesh came, and was rejected by the rulers in Israel. After that, they convened to ban books -or not- and Enoch was banned for obvious reasons. Having rejected the Messiah, they wanted to reject the Foundation for His Gospel in the Book of Enoch. But not all Jews did so, and the early Church Fathers of the time called Enoch Scripture/Writing, meaning holy.

The Bible of the Jews of the Essene community who left their Bible/collection of manuscripts hidden in the Qumran caves had many more books in it than the public even had, in general, because they were a priestly community who expected the third temple and considered the second defiled -and so it was, by Moses' Law- and they had the priestly writings that were left by Moses [including the writings of the Patriarchs dealing with how to choose the wood and etc for sacrificial offerings, and so on, and telling how to perform their duties, even to what wood to use for burnt offerings, how to mix the oils for anointing and for the Menorrah, and etc.
So you do need to do a bit of reading up, for you are not correct.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

]brotherjerry said: ↑

No there is not. Start small...try citing 10 direct quotes. .

If you have read the Bible with love of the Scriptures and have had questions about the foundation of the things mentioned there but not made clear without the foundation, then the Book of Enoch is a delight, clearing up these things.
You want only ten, I will give you ten, but then you need to do your own personal reading of the Scriptures first, and then the Book of Enoch, to see the origin of the Gospel of Christ, and Jesus Christ in Enoch as God the Word, now come in flesh, As Enoch said He was to come; and Enoch saw Him hidden in God, with God, and He was God, and He was to come, and in His name the righteous will be saved.
That is the Gospel from Enoch, about the Son of Man in heaven.

1. Enoch opens with the Son of Man coming with ten thousands of angels, to judge the earth.
That is not in Torah, but in Enoch.

Mat 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Enoch 1:
9And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. [/B]

2 The sum of all judgment given to the Son of Man:
Jhn 5:26, 27
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Enoch 69:
26And there was great joy amongst them,
And they blessed and glorified and extolled
Because the name of that Son of Man had been revealed unto them.

27And he sat on the throne of his glory,
And the sum of judgement was given unto the Son of Man,[/B]

3: your names are written in heaven
Luk 10:20
Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Enoch 104:
104 I swear unto you, that in heaven the angels remember you for good before the glory of the Great One: and your names are written before the glory of the Great One.[/B]

4 The angels in heaven do not marry nor give in marriage:
Mat 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.


Enoch 15:
15 And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: "Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice. 2And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: 'You should intercede for men, and not men for you: 3Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children of earth, and begotten giants as your sons? 4And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten children with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish. 5Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. 6But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. 7And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.

5 in the resurrection, the saints shall be equal with, companions of, the angels in heaven.
Enoch 104:
6And now fear not, ye righteous, when ye see the sinners growing strong and prospering in their ways: be not companions with them, but keep afar from their violence; for ye shall become companions of the hosts of heaven.

6 Many Habitations:
John 14:2
In my father's house are many habitations.[?]
Enoch 45: 3
3On that day Mine Elect One shall sit on the throne of glory
And shall try their works,
And their places of rest shall be innumerable.
& another translation:
In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations.

7 The Throne of Glory that Jesus/The Messiah/God's Elect Son, will sit upon:
The Father's Throne, that the Son will sit upon:

Enoch 51:
3And the Elect One shall in those days sit on My throne,
And his mouth shall pour forth all the secrets of wisdom and counsel:
For the Lord of Spirits hath given them to him and hath glorified him.

Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory.
Enoch 51: 3And the Elect One shall in those days sit on My throne,

And his mouth shall pour forth all the secrets of wisdom and counsel:
For the Lord of Spirits hath given them to him and hath glorified him.

55: 4Ye mighty kings who dwell on the earth, ye shall have to behold Mine Elect One, how he sits on the throne of glory and judges Azazel, and all his associates, and all his hosts in the name of the Lord of Spirits."
61: 8And the Lord of Spirits placed the Elect One on the throne of glory.
And he shall judge all the works of the holy above in the heaven,
And in the balance shall their deeds be weighed.

62: 62 And thus the Lord commanded the kings and the mighty and the exalted, and those who dwell on the earth, and said: "Open your eyes and lift up your horns if ye are able to recognize the Elect One."

2And the Lord of Spirits seated him on the throne of His glory,
And the spirit of righteousness was poured out upon him,
And the word of his mouth slays all the sinners,
And all the unrighteous are destroyed from before his face.

5And one portion of them shall look on the other,
And they shall be terrified,
And they shall be downcast of countenance,
And pain shall seize them,
When they see that Son of Man
Sitting on the throne of his glory.

8 We will be one with the Father and the Son:
Jhn 17:11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Jhn 17:22
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Enoch 105:
2For I and My Son will be united with them for ever in the paths of uprightness in their lives; and ye shall have peace: rejoice, ye children of uprightness. Amen.
````
9. The throne of Glory, and thrones of Glory :
Enoch 108:
11"And now I will summon the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who in the flesh were not recompensed with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. 12And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved My holy name, and I will seat each on the throne of his honour. 13And they shall be resplendent for times without number; for righteousness is the judgement of God; for to the faithful He will give faithfulness in the habitation of upright paths.
Rev 20:4 -delivered from Jesus, by the angel, to John, to write, about the thrones of glory that Enoch wrote of, for us:
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Mat 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

10. the lake of fire where sinners are cast -minus the Adam spirit, which perishes/is rendered useless, never rising from the depths of earth, and bodies cast there are the never dying worms, without the spirit [can never metamorphose into the glorious image of the Son of God]
Matthew 13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire.

Matthew 25:41
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Enoch 108:

2Ye who have done good shall wait for those days till an end is made of those who work evil, and an end of the might of the transgressors. 3And wait ye indeed till sin has passed away, for their names shall be blotted out of the book of life and out of the holy books, and their seed shall be destroyed for ever, and their spirits shall be slain, and they shall cry and make lamentation in a place that is a chaotic wilderness, and in the fire shall they burn; for there is no earth there.

4And I saw there something like an invisible cloud; for by reason of its depth I could not look over, and I saw a flame of fire blazing brightly, and things like shining mountains circling and sweeping to and fro.

5And I asked one of the holy angels who was with me and said unto him: "What is this shining thing? for it is not a heaven but only the flame of a blazing fire, and the voice of weeping and crying and lamentation and strong pain."

6And he said unto me: "This place which thou seest- here are cast the spirits of sinners and blasphemers, and of those who work wickedness, and of those who pervert everything that the Lord hath spoken through the mouth of the prophets- even the things that shall be.[/B][/B]

 

[brotherjerry]

1) is not a quote. It is barely an allusion.

2) Again not a quote. Again barely an allusion...really it is isn't even that.

3) Again no quote. Again a very very faint allusion...could have been pulled from Malachi 3:16 just as ealisy.

4) Again no quote. Not even an allusion.

5) You need to redo #5...I am not seeing your New Testament quote there, only the Enoch quote.

6) Again not a quote. Not even an allusion.

7) Again not a quote.
Also look at Revelations 3:21 "He who overcomes, I will grant him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne"
Later in Revelations we have the throne and the Lamb
Revelations 7:10 "and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb"
Revelations 7:11 "...and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God"
Revelations 7:15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God...."
Revelations 19:4 "...fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne..."

Not only that above but just in Revelations we see three thrones mentioned. As I mentioned in Revelations 3:21...Jesus has a Throne, the Father has a throne. Also later in Revelations 20:11 is a different throne mentioned, a great white throne.

8) Again no quote. Not even an allusion.

9) Again no quote. Also Enoch appears to imply everyone will sit on their own throne, where Revelations and Matthew you cite are restricted to certain people being on thrones (which is what is actually said)

10) again no quote. vague allusions.

You seem to think that allusions equate to quotation. They don't. As i said in previous post, Jesus and the Apostles all quoted from the Old Testament, had direct quotes, they could not be interpreted as anything but quoting directly...and often even said "IT IS WRITTEN". But not once do you find that in reference to Enoch. Jesus never quotes it...you would think that if it actually had such clear and concise prophecies of His coming, then Christ would have surely used Enoch to quote from. instead He quotes the major prophets. Paul as well, probably no other man alive at the time knew the Old Testament like Paul did, quotes the Old Testament often...but strangely enough, never once quotes Enoch.

There is only one potential quote in Jude, and the thing is while what is said in Jude is attributed to Enoch, it is not quoted nearly as precisely as most every other quote used in the New Testament in reference to the Old Testament.

 

[Hoghead1]

I'm not sure I agree, Brotehrjerry. The Palestinian Jews had a Bible that did not contain the Apocrypha, true. However, diaspora Jewery had the Septuagint, which did include the Apocrypha. So there were two, not one, Jewish canons. Also, as pointed out, the Essenes had a collection of "holy books" that were different from both the Septuagint and Hebrew canon of teh Palestinian Jews. So there may have been three canons.

 

[Papias]

This is completely untrue. Considering even the Catholic Church does not consider the Apocrypha part of Scriptures and most of the Protestant world does not as well, then it is very easy to say that most of the Christian world does not acknowledge teh Apocrypha as Scripture, as something authoritative or inspired.

Wrong. Yeshuasavedme is right here. The Roman Catholic Church accepts the books that the Protestants call the "Apocrypha" as part of their Bible. They aren't even in a separate section, but right in the OT between other books.

You can see that most Christians accept these books as part of the Bible, and see that there are all kinds of different canons out there, by looking at the table here - just go down to, say "Tobit" or "Judith".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon

That's just today. Over history there are even more changes and convolutions.

Consider these facts:
1) There is no clear definitive quotation of the Apocrypha by Jesus or any of the Apostles.

Wrong. There are too many references to the deuterocanon to list. Here are a few:

Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

You can see dozens of them here: http://www.scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

2) Jesus speaking in Luke 11:51
3) Romans 3:2 says the Jews "were entrusted with the oracles of God"
4) The Dead Sea Scrolls themselves provide no commentaries on the Apocrypha
5) Many ancients also rejected the Apocrypha.
7) Many of the early church fathers rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture,

So what? None of those mean that we shouldn't accept the deuterocanon.

6) Even the Catholic Church you have cited did not always accept the Apocrypha,

So what? As we saw, the canon of the Bibles has never been agreed upon, with all kinds of books going in and out at different times. Martin Luther took out James, jude and Revelation, so if Protestants are going to use #6 as a reason to reject the deuterocanon, then if they are consistent, they'll have to start removing new testament books too.

8) The Apocrypha contains a number of false teachings.
-

Those aren't false teachings. Those are correct teachings. You only consider them false because you've removed the deuterocanon from your Bible.

In Christ-

Papias

 

[Hoghead1]

Brotherjerry, you might want to go online sometime and read what the Council of Trent has to say on teh Apocrypha. This Council makes it quite plain that they are to be considered canon. There is no doubt about that. Also, you have calmed several times that there as a well-established canon long before Christ cam along. That is not at all true. Palestinian Jews mobbed accepted the Hebrew Scriptures as definitive, but diaspora Jewery , especially in Alexandria, seems to have accepted the Septuagint. The NT never addresses the question of teh canon.

 

[brotherjerry]

References are not quotes. They are allusions at best.

Just as what you have cited. Not only vague allusions but could also have been references to verses in the Old Testament and not the Apocrypha.

1)
Matthew 9:36 Seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited like sheep without a shepherd.
Judith 11:19 I will guide you through the central part of the land of Judah until we come to Jerusalem, where I will crown you king in the center of the city. You will scatter the people of Jerusalem like sheep without a shepherd. Not even a dog will dare to growl at you. God has revealed these things to me in advance and has sent me to report them to you.

Not only do these two only share 4 words in common, but they do not even share the same theme. Instead it is much more plausible that Matthew 9:36 is going off of the idea of any one of the following verses
Numbers 27:17 Who will go out and come in before them, and who will lead them out and bring them in, so that the congregation of the Lord will not be like sheep which have no shepherd.
1 Kings 22:17 So he said, "I saw all Israel scattered on the mountains, like sheep which have no shepherd. And the Lord said, 'These have no master. Let each of them return to his house in peace.'" (repeated in 2 Chronicles 18:16)
Ezekiel 34:12 As a shepherd cares for his herd in the day when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will care for My sheep and will deliver them from all the places to whcih they were scattered on a cloudy and gloomy day"

2)
Matthew 16:18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it
Wisdom 16:13 You have power over life and death; you can bring a person to the brink of death and back again

Those two share nothing in common...not a quote, not even an allusion. Not even the same train of thought.

3)
Matthew 22:24-28 asking, "Teacher, Moses said, 'If a man dies ahving no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and rais up children for his brother.' Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother; so also the second and the thrid, down to the seventh. Last of all, the woman died. In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they had all had marreid her."
Tobit 3:8 Sarah had been married seven times, but the evil demon, Asmodeus, killed each husband before the marriage could be consumated. The servant woman said to Sarah, "You husband killer! Look at you! You've already had seven husbands, but not one of them lived long enough to give you a son."
Tobit 7:11 I have already given her to seven men, all of them relatives. Each one died on his wedding night, as soon as he entered the bedroom. But now, my son, have something to eat and drink. The Lord will take care of you both. Tobias replied, "I won't eat or drink until you give me your word."

Now comparison of these two could lead you to think one may have come from the other. But since the Jews in Matthew did not indicate they were quoting anything like they did with the Scripture, it is hard to actually conclude that. These are not direct quotes but they are allusions. The Jews in Matthew could have just as easily said 5 brothers or 50 brothers. We have absolutely nothing to prove a link to Tobit. A confirmed link would have been to maybe mention Sarah's name, or even the demon's name. But we have nothing, so we have no quote but again allusion.

4)
Matthew 24:15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)
1 Maccabees 1:54 On the fifteenth day of the month of Kisleve in the year 145, King Antiochus set up the Awful Horror on the latar of the Temple, and pagan altars were built in the towns throughout Judea.
2 Maccabees 8:17 never forgetting the crimes the Gentiles had committed against the Temple and how they made Jerusalem suffer terribly and had done away with Jewish traditions.

Sooo...when Matthew says it came from Daniel, you want to ignore that and claim it came from Maccabees?
Daniel 11:31 Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will setup the abomination of desolation.
Daniel 12:11 Fromt eh time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

Funny Matthew did not say that came from the writings of the Maccabees did he? Instead he singled it out as coming from Daniel. Which again only proves a point I made earlier that neither Jesus nor the Aposltes quoted from the Apocryphal works.

5) Mark 4 (parable of the sower and soils too long to retype )
Sirach 40:15 The children of ungodly people will not leave large families; they are like plants trying to take root on rock

Well again no quote here...not even an allusion because the train of thought is different. Sirach goes on to toss in a bunch of other examples to express the point. They share some common words and very very vague symbolism...but that is the extent of it.

6)
Mark 9:48 Where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched
Judith 16:17 The nations who rise up against my people are doomed. The Lord Almighty will punish them on Judgement Day. He will send fire and worms to devour their bodies, and they will weep in pain forever.

Not a direct quote at all. Funny though the verse in Mark is said to be a direct quote. Oh and look it is.
Isaiah 66:24 Then they will go froth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenced; and they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.
So it is not a quote of Judith...Judith does not even say that the worms won't die or anything...just that it will go on forever. But Isaiah however, nails it exactly....so once again the Apostles do not quote Apocrypha but the Old Testament Prophets.

As to the rest of your post.
The Protestants follow the same Canon the Jews have maintained. The Jews acknowledge no further prophets for several centuries BC. So if there were no further Prophets there were no further utterances from God for the people. Any "writings" after that are either regurgitation of what was already said, not relevant to the Scripture (being historical or some other perspective). But definitely not authoratative.

Please also note that I am not saying you should not accept the Apocrypha...but I would say they should not be considered part of Scripture.

As to your statement against the false teachings....really? So if a book comes out that teaches contrary to the words of Christ, or different from what John, Paul, Peter, James, etc teach you simply say "So what...this is an old book, it must be true too"
The 66 book Bible makes it very clear what can deliver you from sins, and giving Alms is not on that list. Tobit teaches to give alms for the forgiveness of sins.
And when Isaiah says "Come here to be judged, you sinners! you are no better than sorcerers, adulterers, and prostitutes" (Isaiah 57:3) We should ignore that because Tobit gives us the Ok to drive out devils using fish entrails and hot coals?
And when Maccabees says it is OK to pray for the dead and to try and make atonement for the dead, we should ignore the many warnings from Isaiah, in Leviticus, and others?

I mean Deuteronomy 18:10-12 says it pretty clear
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

 

[Hoghead1]

Brotherjerry, I think you need to take a closer look at Protestantism. Originally, the Apocrypha was included. This is case with Luther's Bible and also the KJV. True, for 1647 onward, the Apocrypha was dropped from the KJV, but that should not overlook the point that it was initially included. Again, I think you need to take a closer look at the decision of the Council of Trent. I checked and it is definitely available online. Also, you need to take a closer look at the Septuagint. There were two early Jewish canons, the Palestinian (like ours) and the Hebrew. Also, the fact that you could maybe reference an "allusion" to the OT does not overlook or dismiss the fact that an "allusion" could be a reference as well to the Apocrypha. Indeed, there is nothing in the NT stating what is or is not canon.

 

[brotherjerry]

Hoghead...never said they were not in any of those works. Also knew the KJB had them in there originally. But just because they are included does not mean they were given the same level of reverence as the rest of the books in there. Because they were not. Do not mix up what I am referring too here. I am not saying that the Apocrypha is not a historical work, or that it should not be included in a Bible, or as part a persons reading. But there are many reasons why the Apocryphal works were never considered on the same level as the rest of Scripture, or even considered Scriptural (as in inspired by God or being an authoritative word from God).

Even some of the earliest works we have found in the DSS does not have Midrash or notes on many of the Apocryphal works, or to the extent that the other more common books of the Old Testament have. This is an indicator that even the religious people of Qumran did not evaluate those texts to the level they did of what was already accepted. The fact that Christ nor the Apostles directly quote any of the Apocryphal works is further evidence that it was never considered by the Jews of the time as part of the Scriptural basis. Something to read, yes, but part of the Word of God...no not really.
And that is even more so with the book of Enoch that Yeshuasavedme keeps pushing. Enoch was not even part of the Apocrypha.

 

[Hoghead1]

You can't always judge by the DSS. The Essenes were a special, separate cult Also, their writings profess tow Messiahs, not one. They also contain at least 15 psalms not found in our Bible, etc. Your "allusion" theory isn't very solid. The same could be said for many OT references that persons claim the NT makes. They, too, are often indirect quotes. The Apocrypha as considered authoritative in the eyes of teh Catholic church. Again, go and read the decision of the Council of Trent. GO check out the situation with Jerome. He initially worked from the Greek, then tuned to the Hebrew. He initially was skeptical of the value of teh Apocrypha, but later changed his mind and went with the church, which viewed them as on an equal par with the rest of Scripture. To this day, half of the Book of ester in in the non-Apocrypha bible, and the other half in teh Apocrypha. So is or is not Ester canon? You also continually fail to mention that ancient Jewery was divided on the question of teh canon, with the diaspora Jews favoring teh Septuagint.

 

[mmksparbud]

I thought this thread was about the existence of Satan??--It's about the Apocrypha??

 

[brotherjerry]

You can't always judge by the DSS. The Essenes were a special, separate cult Also, their writings profess tow Messiahs, not one. They also contain at least 15 psalms not found in our Bible, etc. Your "allusion" theory isn't very solid. The same could be said for many OT references that persons claim the NT makes. They, too, are often indirect quotes. The Apocrypha as considered authoritative in the eyes of teh Catholic church. Again, go and read the decision of the Council of Trent. GO check out the situation with Jerome. He initially worked from the Greek, then tuned to the Hebrew. He initially was skeptical of the value of teh Apocrypha, but later changed his mind and went with the church, which viewed them as on an equal par with the rest of Scripture. To this day, half of the Book of ester in in the non-Apocrypha bible, and the other half in teh Apocrypha. So is or is not Ester canon? You also continually fail to mention that ancient Jewery was divided on the question of teh canon, with the diaspora Jews favoring teh Septuagint.

Agreed as far as judging the DSS and the Essenes. But don't tell Yeshuasavedme that....he seems to elevate them quite highly.

As to allusion theory...not a theory at all. I asked for quotes. None were provided. As to OT references that people claim...typically when Christ or an Apostle is referring to the Old Testament, it is prefaced with "It is written", "The prophet said","The Lord says", or something similar which is a clear indication that what is about to come was written somewhere else as well. Now some of the other references that are not as clear...absolutely...no argument there. However, even with those I would take a reference to one of the Old Testament books that we have than one that is not currently included. Primarily because of much of the extra-biblical evidence to suggest that the OT we have in the 66 book Bible, covers what the Jews also considered the core of their works as well. Everything that came after the Jews understand that "God went silent", is typically referenced for historical purposes or similar uses, but not core teachings...no new revelations...otherwise if there were new revelations, new prophecies, then God did not go silent as the Bible indicates would happen, and the Jews believe has happened.

And I have not ignored anything about the diaspora Jews. Again just because it was part of their Bible (the collection of written works) does not mean they considered it part of their Scripture. The Jews (even the diaspora) understood that the writings after ~400 BCE were useful to show Jewish culture, and even outlines Jewish traditions that would have been lost otherwise. But traditions are just that, traditions, they are not Scripture. We see the turmoil of the Jewish people from the return from exile on up through the Maccabean Revolt. From a Jewish perspective the traditions and history are preserved, even though God was not revealing things, keeping a record of what happened and what was going on was important. From a Christian perspective we can learn what was going on in the Jewish community to get a better understanding of the origins of our own faith, we get some context behind why the Jews acted the way they did at the time of Christ.