The Evolution of Morality

[nuttypiglet]

If one professes to take the Bible in a literal sense then he is obligated to put to death witches as per EXODUS 2:18. If on the other hand one takes the Bible purely as a spiritual guide then one should disregard such outdated biblical laws.

These witches are being burned for the same reason they were burned in the past in Europe and in America. The Bible specifically instructs witches to be put to death.

You cannot profess to interpret the Bible literally (creationism) while ignoring the laws that demand the death of witches, adulterers, homosexuals, children who curse their parents, etc.

In Africa the new churches (evangelical, etc.) preach such hatred (same as the new Muslim Darasas) that people see fit to enforce such biblical laws without remorse.

Yes we will call you hypocrites when you claim to be adhering to the Bible literally and choose and pick what to keep and what to ignore from the Bible.

But then, when the head of Christianity was confronted with a woman being dragged into the street to be stoned to death, what did he say? Oh that's right "He who is without sin cast the first stone". The Jews had a hard time from God with laws and punishments because they continually disobeyed him.
I have to say though, that to tie ALL Christians to the same brush is a very stupid thing to do. In fact I think it shows a dangerous mind, one no different to religious fanatics that twist the truth. No one seems to mention all the Christians who do good works, and many have been killed for it. It can't be said that all Christians are bad and simply tie the name "christian" to wickedness. It would be like saying all humans are pedophiles because there are a few in society. Such views promote hatred. I have many atheist friends and we get along just fine. I never have any thoughts remotely close to wanting to kill them for not believing, such claims on Christians are sick.

 

[mzungu]

But then, when the head of Christianity was confronted with a woman being dragged into the street to be stoned to death, what did he say? Oh that's right "He who is without sin cast the first stone". The Jews had a hard time from God with laws and punishments because they continually disobeyed him.
I have to say though, that to tie ALL Christians to the same brush is a very stupid thing to do. In fact I think it shows a dangerous mind, one no different to religious fanatics that twist the truth. No one seems to mention all the Christians who do good works, and many have been killed for it. It can't be said that all Christians are bad and simply tie the name "christian" to wickedness. It would be like saying all humans are pedophiles because there are a few in society. Such views promote hatred. I have many atheist friends and we get along just fine. I never have any thoughts remotely close to wanting to kill them for not believing, such claims on Christians are sick.

Did you even read my post?

Also your signature about Darwin is just plain wrong. In fact it is the other way round; religion is the one that claims to know everything and science never claims to know everything. In fact if science did claim such a thing then there would not be a need for science. Please get your facts right before making such a false statement!

 

[EternalDragon]

If one professes to take the Bible in a literal sense then he is obligated to put to death witches as per EXODUS 2:18. If on the other hand one takes the Bible purely as a spiritual guide then one should disregard such outdated biblical laws.

These witches are being burned for the same reason they were burned in the past in Europe and in America. The Bible specifically instructs witches to be put to death.

You cannot profess to interpret the Bible literally (creationism) while ignoring the laws that demand the death of witches, adulterers, homosexuals, children who curse their parents, etc.

In Africa the new churches (evangelical, etc.) preach such hatred (same as the new Muslim Darasas) that people see fit to enforce such biblical laws without remorse.

Yes we will call you hypocrites when you claim to be adhering to the Bible literally and choose and pick what to keep and what to ignore from the Bible.

For one thing it is Exodus 22:18. For another, those were laws for the children of Israel when they were settling the land to keep them pure. They were/are not laws for Christians.

Third, witchcraft is of the devil.

 

[EternalDragon]

Did you even read my post?

Also your signature about Darwin is just plain wrong. In fact it is the other way round; religion is the one that claims to know everything and science never claims to know everything. In fact if science did claim such a thing then there would not be a need for science. Please get your facts right before making such a false statement!

If science recognized the truth about creation it would push science forward a great deal. There would certainly still be a need for science. Science is responsible for a lot of today's technology and medicines without any help from the evolution theory.

 

[AV1611VET]

If one professes to take the Bible in a literal sense then he is obligated to put to death witches as per EXODUS 2:18.

Should we be sacrificing animals as well?

 

[mzungu]

Should we be sacrificing animals as well?

If you do not accept the OT then why on earth are you clinging to genesis? You cannot pick and choose what to keep and what to discard. Either the Bible is a holly book in its entirety or it is not. Christianity s' dogma does not allow for any change!

 

[Oncedeceived]

If you do not accept the OT then why on earth are you clinging to genesis? You cannot pick and choose what to keep and what to discard. Either the Bible is a holly book in its entirety or it is not. Christianity s' dogma does not allow for any change!

It is a common mistake that people make about "picking and choosing". There are those things that people do pick and choose, but the way God deals with Israel and the way HE deals with Christians is different and it is accurate to view it differently. We are not required just as AV pointed out to use animal sacrifice and many other things in the Bible since we acknowledge Christ. It is your lack of understanding of the Bible and how it is created for both faiths that causes you to have difficulty in understanding.

 

[Ginger123]

It is a common mistake that people make about "picking and choosing". There are those things that people do pick and choose, but the way God deals with Israel and the way HE deals with Christians is different and it is accurate to view it differently. We are not required just as AV pointed out to use animal sacrifice and many other things in the Bible since we acknowledge Christ. It is your lack of understanding of the Bible and how it is created for both faiths that causes you to have difficulty in understanding.

I think you will admit though as we see in the OT God does love the smell of burning flesh and fresh blood.

 

[mzungu]

It is a common mistake that people make about "picking and choosing". There are those things that people do pick and choose, but the way God deals with Israel and the way HE deals with Christians is different and it is accurate to view it differently. We are not required just as AV pointed out to use animal sacrifice and many other things in the Bible since we acknowledge Christ. It is your lack of understanding of the Bible and how it is created for both faiths that causes you to have difficulty in understanding.

Where in the Bible does it say what to keep and what to ignore?

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.
2) All of the Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)


This one is for creationists:

3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)
4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)
5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)
6) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18
7) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

 

[Ginger123]

Where in the Bible does it say what to keep and what to ignore?

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.
2) All of the Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)


This one is for creationists:

3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)
4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)
5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)
6) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18
7) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

There are rules and there are rules, good Christians make up their own rules, the Bible is there for them to choose what it is they want to believe and allows them to dump the rest, who after all is going to tell them what they can or cannot believe? the good thing about belief is they can always lie and say they believe something when they really don't,
like American politicians who can turn their religion on or off depending on which crowd they're talking to.

 

[AV1611VET]

If you do not accept the OT then why on earth are you clinging to genesis?

Did I say I don't accept the Old Testament?

Should anyone who accepts the Old Testament be sacrificing sheep?

If not, then are you telling me it's okay to kill a witch, but not a sheep?

But if so, then are you telling me that I'll be a hypocrite if I kill a witch but not a sheep?

 

[AV1611VET]

It is your lack of understanding of the Bible and how it is created for both faiths that causes you to have difficulty in understanding.

What's interesting is that he steps over my profile, which explains why I don't hunt witches, to tell me I would be a hypocrite.

Put another way, he needs to learn dispensation theology.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Where in the Bible does it say what to keep and what to ignore?

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.
2) All of the Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)


This one is for creationists:

3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)
4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)
5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)
6) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18
7) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

1. Jesus came to fulfill prophecy but the Jews did not recognize Him. They are being held to the law until they acknowledge Christ as their Messiah. We accept Christ's death to pay for sin and death/law. So the law still stands for the Jew until they recognize Him as their Messiah.

2. Same as one.
3. Same as one.
3c.. That I am not sure what you are pointing to.
4 and 5. What He was talking about is that the Pharisees and Scribes were finding fault with Jesus (like what you are doing) and He pointed out that they get stuck in the laws and their self-righteousness and lose sight of the fulfillment of all that right before them.

Mark 7

King James Version (KJV)

7 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

He goes on to say that what corrupts is man himself.

13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

6. I am not even sure that it isn't the servants of God that he is referring to here. It might be servants, but servants usually meant indebted servants.
1 Peter 2

King James Version (KJV)

Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

7. This is actually what you are missing:
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
16 And[e] of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[f] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Through Jesus grace and truth we are free from the law.

 

[Oncedeceived]

What's interesting is that he steps over my profile, which explains why I don't hunt witches, to tell me I would be a hypocrite.

Put another way, he needs to learn dispensation theology.

Yes, and taking things out of context as well as not having an understanding of Christianity is another problem.

 

[Ginger123]

Yes, and taking things out of context as well as not having an understanding of Christianity is another problem.

How can we understand when you only quote the parts in the bible that suits you and dismiss the parts that don't?
you say you believe it all until someone points out a few things you don't like then you accuse us of not understanding, you're all trapped wanting to believe something but not being able to believe it, you have been given an impossible task, you've been asked to believe in rubbish and you're confused.

You have no answers just bible verses and it seems you are not allowed to do any thinking for yourselves,
all you can do is hang on and hope for the best, I don't envy you one bit.
If your addled denials and excuses are Christianity you are welcomed to it, you don't know what or what not to believe and you go which ever way the wind blows.

You are completely right when you say we don't understand but then again neither do you.
You believe something you can not explain and believe it only because you are afraid not to believe it.

 

[Oncedeceived]

How can we understand when you only quote the parts in the bible that suits you and dismiss the parts that don't?

It was mjungu that was quoting parts of the Bible and dismissing parts that he didn't like.

you say you believe it all until someone points out a few things you don't like then you accuse us of not understanding, you're all trapped wanting to believe something but not being able to believe it, you have been given an impossible task, you've been asked to believe in rubbish and you're confused.

I think I made it clear what was being discussed and in what context the verses were made.

You have no answers just bible verses and it seems you are not allowed to do any thinking for yourselves,
all you can do is hang on and hope for the best, I don't envy you one bit.
If your addled denials and excuses are Christianity you are welcomed to it, you don't know what or what not to believe and you go which ever way the wind blows.

I think I've been pretty consistent.

You are completely right when you say we don't understand but then again neither do you.
You believe something you can not explain and believe it only because you are afraid not to believe it.

I think I explained it sufficiently.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I've been following the thread, I understand how your mind might be on other things.

yes.

Metaphorically, Once, metaphorically. Behaving a certain way, a way we might interpret as moral, is a survival strategy too.

I got your point. I just don't think the thinking behind it is satisfactory. JMHO.

The Cambrian era was some 500 million years ago. If life has existed for over 3 billion years, that's much more than half a million years of development. I would imagine that the nervous system would already be connected to elements of it that become refined and specialized - eyes, brain, etc.

Yes, but we see even more simple examples prior to that which do not have the complexity only like 60 million years earlier.


Depends on what you mean by universally stable traits. For the most part, I see humans as generally comparable physically and mentally, and that differences in culture are the main reason for different behavior. And yes, I do believe in free will.

Do you agree that if you have sufficiently intelligent creatures working out ways of behaving towards one-another and getting along, they'll develop ideas about what the best ways are?

You are rather confusing me. ON one hand you say that we discover these behaviors and on the other you say we develop them. Am I missing something here?

Probably not. I think there are very few creatures of any species, including humans, who conciously think in those terms.

Right, but they do think about survival and what it takes for them individually and behaviors to assure that.

Are they... reacting to stimuli? Certainly. Are they doing well? Grass is e'erywhere.

Are they intelligent?

No. I'm not saying He can't be real because all that doesn't happen, I'm saying I don't see it as evidence of His existence that the universe is made in such a way that nothing like that does happen.

So God created the universe with exact fine tuned parameters to assure the existence of the universe and life, but this is not evidence to you. You would rather see something unorganized and senseless? What would you want to see that would point to God?

God's power isn't restricted based on how the universe is tuned - he could make life here that thrives regardless of how it's tuned, even if life functioned purely on miracles.

Go could do anything true, but why would He? Why not make a world that we can explore and learn about. Don't you think it would be boring if we were just plopped down in a universe that we could not make sense of and which had no laws or rules to learn?

The universe could be tuned in a way that is utterly inimical to all life and yet still have life that survives through miraculous intervention, in defiance of every scientific principle.

Why? What purpose would that provide?

The fact that life functions here without any apparent miracles powering it is not, to me, evidence that a supernatural creator must be responsible for it.

So you think it is mundane that we exist and that the universe is such that we can discover and learn about it using abstract mathematical equations that work!

It could still be true that there is a supernatural creator - for me, though, the tuning of the universe being what it is does not make me think that.

So what do you attribute those precise parameters to?

See above. If God's doing the creating, why does He need it to be precisely this way, or any way?

Need is not necessary. However, if God wanted us to know Him through the Universe it seems to be a perfect way to do it.

If He has done it, then to me it looks like He's done so in such a way as to hide His intervention completely.

That outlook is only because you accept things that you don't know or have evidence for within your worldview. You have no explanation why life is on earth or that earth is perfect for life. You accept it even though it could have had to be God behind it.

As universal as 2+2=4. I think it's 4, I can't imagine the circumstances where it would be 5, and I feel like I can dismiss anyone who thinks it is 5.

We can observe that 2+2=4. We can not observe that dying for another is noble or moral.

The behavior is evolved - the truths about how the best way to behave is, I think, an emergent property of the behavior.

Ok.

Super. I take note of the all-caps 'if.' Is my sincerity in question, or did you just hold down the shift key too long?

I do that all the time. Sorry.

It certainly wouldn't be easy at this point. The problem I have with relying upon God alone to change someone's mind is that, if there is no God, their mind will never change. If they're wrong they will never allow themselves to be correct. I feel that level of certainty, that level of faith, can be dangerous... as evidenced by certain links in this thread. Faith trumping reason and evidence shouldn't be encouraged or regarded as a virtue.

What evidence and what reason?

That wasn't a yes or no question - do you think the sentiment 'you're stupid' is more harsh or less harsh than 'your spirit is not alive and you are going to Hell when you die.'

I would have to say no. However, I don't like being called stupid or ignorant by some people who obviously haven't been in the scientific field or researched anything on their own. People who claim things that aren't in evidence and then claim that I dismiss evidence. But that is what it is.

That doesn't really soften the issue for me, Once - "You're horrible, but so am I, and so is everyone else!" is a terrible sentiment to express.

I understand that.

So I understand. Which would mean that even newborns deserve hell, but are let off the hook for being underage.

I understand.

I would certainly have plenty of questions I'd want answered beyond simply whether or not He really existed before taking any further steps.

I imagine everyone does.

Which I find to be an appalling state of affairs, if true. It's a shame we don't make the rules - I think we could do much better. I can't imagine inflicting eternal torment on someone because they hurt my feelings by not knowing I existed.

It is not due to hurt feelings. It is God's holiness. His perfection.

So I am told.

Believe me, I'd rather just be called 'stupid.'

Yeah. I believe you now.

That is why I find the notion of anyone being eternally condemned for it to be a repugnant one.

So what I am conferring from your stance is that you will not worship God even if He exists?

I think you missed my question: Do you believe we have free will?

 

[Ginger123]

You believe something you can not explain and believe it only because you are afraid not to believe it.

I think I explained it sufficiently.

Do you, then please tell me what a God is.
Not what a God does or what a God can do, just what a God is.

 

[Davian]

 

[Oncedeceived]

Do you, then please tell me what a God is.
Not what a God does or what a God can do, just what a God is.

A living Being.