The Evolution of Civilization

[joshua 1 9]

We have long discussions about the transformation of man from a hunter gather to a food producer. People talk about how this took place over a long period of time. Yet all of this hinges on man becoming Civilized. To become civil requires laws and city planning. Laws and civil engineering requires a written language. Even the very first written records were little pieces of clay that showed property boundaries or a inventory of how much food is stored in clay jars.

We can see that civilization took place at a point in time. Often the work of one man like Moses that wrote down laws and set the course for civil planning. We can have long discussions about artifacts and how they relate to evolutionary theory. Written history is a different ball game. This is why we have written history and pre written history.

 

[DogmaHunter]

We have long discussions about the transformation of man from a hunter gather to a food producer. People talk about how this took place over a long period of time. Yet all of this hinges on man becoming Civilized. To become civil requires laws and city planning. Laws and civil engineering requires a written language. Even the very first written records were little pieces of clay that showed property boundaries or a inventory of how much food is stored in clay jars.

We can see that civilization took place at a point in time. Often the work of one man like Moses that wrote down laws and set the course for civil planning. We can have long discussions about artifacts and how they relate to evolutionary theory. Written history is a different ball game. This is why we have written history and pre written history.

ow dear....

First, civilisation already existed for a looooong time when judaism saw the light of day.
Secondly, no it's not like a hunter/gatherer tribe went to sleep as nomads and then woke up and said "let's start a civilisation" and then boom, they went to sleep the next day in the first "civilisation" with "city planning, laws, writing, etc".

How ridiculous.

It was a process that unfolded over the course of at least 5000 years (20.000 sounds more realistic...), during which time agriculture was refined, written language was developed and settlements got more and more organized.

And none of this was planned in advance. Every aspect of it was developed as it was needed.
Ancient tribes didn't organize a police force when the settlement consisted of 1 field with some crops and 7 huts.......

Settlements grow into villages, cities, nations, empires. As the tribe/group expands and gets more complex, more needs arise in terms of organization, communication, enforcement of rules / social contracts, etc etc etc.

There really isn't anything "mysterious" about it and the exact same trend can be seen today in modern civilisation.

Take a look at the internet, global communication and the ease of global travel. This triggers a need for international rules and "cyber laws" - things that weren't an issue only 100 years ago.

It's not like cyberspace laws were being planned decades before people even knew what cyberspace was......... In fact, the need for such laws only became apparant AFTER cyberspace was here and unregulated. The chaos there and the implication for "abuse" is what triggered all those civil organisational changes.

People tend to only solve their problems as they manifest.
There's no need to solve problems that don't exist yet.

 

[joshua 1 9]

First, civilisation already existed for a looooong time when judaism saw the light of day.

True we had written law 1,000 years before Moses. But we did not have written anything before Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago. In the Tigris Euphrates River valley in an area we call Ancient Mesopotamia. Civilization (cities and civil law) happened VERY fast when you look at the evidence. You have camp sites that became cities. This all began at the time of written history at the time of Adam and Eve. Of course I realize obstructionists do not want to admit how rapidly this change took place because the evidence clearly supports creationism in this regards.

The very first REAL artifacts were the sewing needle, fishing hooks and fishing net. This goes back 40,000 years when man migrated out of Africa north into the colder area that neanderthals lived in. You can claim slow gradual change for anything other than cities and this happened very rapidly. This was not a gradual change over long periods of time. One example is Gobekli Tepe where there is no evidence of any permanent settlement.

 

[joshua 1 9]

none of this was planned in advance.

Cities are very much planned in advance. That is why we have civil engineering. If you look at a book you will see all that is involved in building a city. A lot more than what you find at a camping site.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Cities are very much planned in advance. That is why we have civil engineering. If you look at a book you will see all that is involved in building a city. A lot more than what you find at a camping site.

That's nowhere near what Dogmahunting was saying. He's not saying that two hunter-gatherers sat around in three or four mud huts and went "Hey? You know what would be cool? If we made MORE mud huts."
Cities arise as populations increase due to the presence of superior agriculture, meaning more food which means more people and families can be supported in a finite area.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Cities arise as populations increase due to the presence of superior agriculture, meaning more food which means more people and families can be supported in a finite area.

You are still talking Biology and I am still talking Civil Engineering. You are avoiding the issue.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

You are still talking Biology and I am still talking Civil Engineering. You are avoiding the issue.

... you're not talking about anything. You're just spouting nonsense.
Also, this is a subforum of the Physical & Life Sciences forum called Creation and Evolution. Nothing you've written about has any bearing on either biology OR civil engineering.
And you've also not given any evidence that ancient humans specifically planned to create cities in the long run.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Cities are very much planned in advance. That is why we have civil engineering.

Today.

 

[DogmaHunter]

True we had written law 1,000 years before Moses. But we did not have written anything before Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago.

Perhaps you should only consider real people and real epochs when you wish to discuss real history.

In the Tigris Euphrates River valley in an area we call Ancient Mesopotamia. Civilization (cities and civil law) happened VERY fast when you look at the evidence.

No, it didn't. 1000s of years of development from hunter-gathere to empire is not "fast" by any means in context of a human life.

Of course I realize obstructionists do not want to admit how rapidly this change took place because the evidence clearly supports creationism in this regards.

150.000 years of hunter/gatherer homo sapiens culture
some 20.000 years of settling down and developing agriculture, writing, etc

This supports creationism how, exactly?

The very first REAL artifacts were the sewing needle, fishing hooks and fishing net. This goes back 40,000 years when man migrated out of Africa north into the colder area that neanderthals lived in.

40.000 years old ha? This supports creationism how, exactly?

You can claim slow gradual change for anything other than cities and this happened very rapidly. This was not a gradual change over long periods of time. One example is Gobekli Tepe where there is no evidence of any permanent settlement.

Define "rapidly".

Centuries, millenia even, for the founding / building of settlements / cities, is not exactly what I would call "rapidly".

 

[VirOptimus]

We have long discussions about the transformation of man from a hunter gather to a food producer. People talk about how this took place over a long period of time. Yet all of this hinges on man becoming Civilized. To become civil requires laws and city planning. Laws and civil engineering requires a written language. Even the very first written records were little pieces of clay that showed property boundaries or a inventory of how much food is stored in clay jars.

We can see that civilization took place at a point in time. Often the work of one man like Moses that wrote down laws and set the course for civil planning. We can have long discussions about artifacts and how they relate to evolutionary theory. Written history is a different ball game. This is why we have written history and pre written history.

We have a pretty good picture how different civilizations came about and what technology made that possible.

Moses is not a important figure in this (and there is real doubt that there has ever been a biblical Moses).

 

[joshua 1 9]

Perhaps you should only consider real people and real epochs when you wish to discuss real history.

I do consider real History. I have been a student of ancient history for over 50 years now.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Today.

You can not have a city without civil engineering. That is why they had the Black Plague is because they did not follow the Civil laws given to us by Moses.

 

[joshua 1 9]

You're just spouting nonsense.

Of course we all know that you are guilty of what you judge others of.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Of course we all know that you are guilty of what you judge others of.

Projection.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

You can not have a city without civil engineering. That is why they had the Black Plague is because they did not follow the Civil laws given to us by Moses.

How would the civil laws from Moses have stopped the Black Plague?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I do consider real History. I have been a student of ancient history for over 50 years now.

Then perhaps you should stop reading creationist literature and instead start reading actual history.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You can not have a city without civil engineering. That is why they had the Black Plague is because they did not follow the Civil laws given to us by Moses.

So London wasn't a city at the time of the black plague epidemic?

 

[joshua 1 9]

So London wasn't a city at the time of the black plague epidemic?

London violated the sanitary laws that were made clear by Moses in the Bible. They did not have the Black Plague in the Hebrew communities that followed the teaching of the Bible. The point is we can not have a city without civil engineering. That is why we call it CIVIL-ization. We are having a discussion about just what the word: "civil" means.

"Civil engineering is a professional engineering discipline that deals with the design, construction, and maintenance of the physical and naturally built environment, including works like roads, bridges, canals, dams, and buildings" (wiki)

 

[joshua 1 9]

Then perhaps you should stop reading creationist literature and instead start reading actual history.

The only Creationists I read is Gerold Schroeder and Frances Collins and this has nothing to do with either one of them. This has to do with Moses in the Bible and the guide the Bible gives us on HOW to build cities.

To be sure Jerusalem was not the FIRST city. There were cities like Nineveh, Ur and Cairo. Jerusalem was the first Heavenly city. We know that Abraham: "For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God." Hebrews 11:10

"They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."Hebrews 8:5

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

London violated the sanitary laws that were made clear by Moses in the Bible. They did not have the Black Plague in the Hebrew communities that followed the teaching of the Bible. The point is we can not have a city without civil engineering. That is why we call it CIVIL-ization. We are having a discussion about just what the word: "civil" means.

"Civil engineering is a professional engineering discipline that deals with the design, construction, and maintenance of the physical and naturally built environment, including works like roads, bridges, canals, dams, and buildings" (wiki)

Except that's not what happened at all. Now you're just engaging in historical revisionism to try and prove a shoddy point.
None of the teachings from the Bible could spare people from an airborne and waterborne contagion that was spread quickly through urban centres.