The 'evil' in the Old Testament

[guava]

Lets go along with you and say that the bible says there is this hell that you get thrown in it and for eternity-- which is not true , but lets say it is so. I tell you the trick of reading the bible is in what you refuse not what you accept . take what the bible tell you as a challenge . It's not personal .now you either win the challenge or get demolished by it .but isn’t it better to win? So win . but you say that doesn't' solve your problem and that your problem is insoluble . If that is so then what has the bible to do with it ?the fault is with you . you can help yourself but you are bent on judging . but anyone can judge. That's the realm of ordinary affairs . If you judge the bible you only get bad things because bad things flow from your judgment and not from the bible. .your challenge is to take the bible in what you refuse. . understand what I'm saying to you. First you need to be aware and conscious you are judging. This is a serious flaw because after you judge you're going to have to continue with your journey. .whatever you judge will be projected into that journey of yours and what is awaiting you in that journey is a prison because you allowed a petty judgment to take over the rule of your life and be master of your destiny so that you will end a docile helpless defeated person. if you want to say something it suppresses you .if you want to act independently it demands that you don't .something is holding you prisoner denying you the interplay of free ideas , your freedom , your god given freedom to put forth your hand and tell this world to stop . who is it ?

 

[Duckybill]

Lets go along with you and say that the bible says there is this hell that you get thrown in it and for eternity-- which is not true , but lets say it is so.

Actually it is true.

Revelation 14:9-11 (NKJV) 9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

 

[guava]

hi duckybill

you know something , on the face of it you do seem to have a point . but to be honest with you i don't see hell mentioned there and i'm thinking where is the brimstones and fire coming from and I'm not even sure what it means by "forever and ever". perhaps if you answer these things for me I might understand what you're trying to say when you said ......actually its true.

"I'm the truth and the life and the way....."

 

[Duckybill]

hi duckybill

you know something , on the face of it you do seem to have a point . but to be honest with you i don't see hell mentioned there and i'm thinking where is the brimstones and fire coming from and I'm not even sure what it means by "forever and ever". perhaps if you answer these things for me I might understand what you're trying to say when you said ......actually its true.

"I'm the truth and the life and the way....."

Punishment in the fire is mentioned several times in the NT. Will the name of the place really matter to those who end up there?

Matthew 13:49-50 (NKJV)
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

 

[ke1985]

addo,

i admire your determination on these threads. you care a lot and i wish i could rep you!

 

[ke1985]

Would I sacrifice my child to show my love for someone else - no.

While i can understand the comparisions, I have to say that God/Jesus is different from you/your child. God knew that while He sacrifriced His son, He would rise after. He would be ressuerected. Death was not Him and it did not become Him.

Through His rising, we are redeemed. I think, putting myself in God's shoes!, it is easier to give up your Son for mankind but then to see Him rise again...I think God knew it was worth it.

 

[guava]

Of course the name of the place matters. Because what if the name is heaven?

you are so hasty.

Look I like to bandy words esp over some coffee and I'm pretty sure you know there are numerous sites out there in the net that debunk your position. but this not what this is about . you do it to reinforce your reasoning by running through your inventory of thoughts and pitting them against others . the problem with that it leaves you little room to examine yourself and your fate . I think but I'm not sure that it is best to give that up and train oneself to be unbiased witness as a way to experience the mystery of the bible and to relish the exultation of experiencing that mystery.
Places do matter a lot . in your life take much care in choosing your spots, where you stand . Choose with an eye towards protection. Protect yourself so you might not be attacked because if you do get attacked then you might have to defend yourself .protection is the secret to not resisting evil.

the name of a place is even more significant because then you are not only occupying it you have power over it . when Moses asked the glory of god as to god's name the answer he got was I am that I am.

 

[Duckybill]

Of course the name of the place matters. Because what if the name is heaven?

People will be punished by fire in heaven?

you are so hasty.

Look I like to bandy words esp over some coffee and I'm pretty sure you know there are numerous sites out there in the net that debunk your position. but this not what this is about . you do it to reinforce your reasoning by running through your inventory of thoughts and pitting them against others . the problem with that it leaves you little room to examine yourself and your fate . I think but I'm not sure that it is best to give that up and train oneself to be unbiased witness as a way to experience the mystery of the bible and to relish the exultation of experiencing that mystery.
Places do matter a lot . in your life take much care in choosing your spots, where you stand . Choose with an eye towards protection. Protect yourself so you might not be attacked because if you do get attacked then you might have to defend yourself .protection is the secret to not resisting evil.

the name of a place is even more significant because then you are not only occupying it you have power over it . when Moses asked the glory of god as to god's name the answer he got was I am that I am.

Huh?

 

[ChrisLeishy]

maybe if you look comparitivly at the times of the ancient societies you might also see many barbarous acts. It is good with the bible to look at the times the stories you are thinking of were written in as well as the culture of the places. the people were less educated except for the literate few percent. IN Iran there was a story that is still happening now about an adulterous woman being stoned to death, or the attempt of it.
just like we try our best maybe they were too given the times they lived in.

I guess its just the history of that time, and maybe its how God worked in their lives then.

There is a chance the peace and prosperity of today wont last forever and it might all read differently to someone who lives under oppression.

 

[guava]

"Huh" doesn't cut it I'm afraid . This is not the realm of language and syntax. The angel talks of the mark on the forehead and the hand. then the angel talks about the mark of the name. So the verse is talking about spot and power. So you practice choosing your right spot . Perhaps you should first start with your dreams. This is where the king Solomon as a boy started. Start there and stay the course and little by little you will learn and one day you might just overcome your fear to learn. Your fear stands between you and learning .so don't abandon yourself to it. this is your first goal. You accomplish that and you will have much harder things to accomplish next.

 

[Duckybill]

"Huh" doesn't cut it I'm afraid . This is not the realm of language and syntax. The angel talks of the mark on the forehead and the hand. then the angel talks about the mark of the name. So the verse is talking about spot and power. So you practice choosing your right spot . Perhaps you should first start with your dreams. This is where the king Solomon as a boy started. Start there and stay the course and little by little you will learn and one day you might just overcome your fear to learn. Your fear stands between you and learning .so don't abandon yourself to it. this is your first goal. You accomplish that and you will have much harder things to accomplish next.

Doesn't sound like you believe in eternal punishment. However God's Word has a lot to say about it. Hell is real and eternal. Denying it won't make it go away.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[chingchang]

Doesn't sound like you believe in eternal punishment. However God's Word has a lot to say about it. Hell is real and eternal. Denying it won't make it go away.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

What happens to people in hell?

CC

 

[Duckybill]

What happens to people in hell?

CC

Revelation 14:11 (NKJV)
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, ...

 

[chingchang]

Revelation 14:11 (NKJV)
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, ...

Those are they who worship the Beast and his image and receive the mark of his name. What about my friend who died a couple years ago who was not a believer? He did NOT worship the Beast and received NO mark.

Yeshua tells us in Matthew 10:28:

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


Why would he tell us that God can destroy BOTH body and soul in hell if that is not what he intends to do? Just to tease us???????

CC

 

[Duckybill]

Those are they who worship the Beast and his image and receive the mark of his name. What about my friend who died a couple years ago who was not a believer? He did NOT worship the Beast and received NO mark.

John 8:24 (NKJV)
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.

Yeshua tells us in Matthew 10:28:

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Why would he tell us that God can destroy BOTH body and soul in hell if that is not what he intends to do? Just to tease us???????

CC

He just said that God is able, not that He will.

Matthew 25:46 (NKJV)
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

 

[chingchang]

John 8:24 (NKJV)
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.

So here we have Yeshua telling us that they will die...not be tormented endlessly. Thanks.

He just said that God is able, not that He will.

Well...God is able to do anything...so that scripture is pointless unless God does intend to destroy both the body & soul (nothing left) in hell.

Matthew 25:46 (NKJV)
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

The punishment is everlasting...meaning it can't be undone...just as our life can not be undone. They will be destroyed....never to be brought back to life again.

CC

 

[.Iona.]

But 'dad' (God) is not only 'dad' but He is also Judge. His duty as a dad is to love, but what about His duty as a judge?

His duty as Judge will then override His love. He cannot claim to love whilst sending people to hell.

 

[Duckybill]

So here we have Yeshua telling us that they will die...not be tormented endlessly. Thanks.

The torment comes after death, and never ends. Otherwise there would be no need for EVERLASTING FIRE.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Well...God is able to do anything...so that scripture is pointless unless God does intend to destroy both the body & soul (nothing left) in hell.

Jesus was warning them of God's capabilities. God can do a lot of things that He won't actually do. Jesus' point was FEAR GOD.

The punishment is everlasting...meaning it can't be undone...just as our life can not be undone. They will be destroyed....never to be brought back to life again.

Nope. God isn't going to reward the wicked with eternal peace, but with torment, shame and everlasting contempt. They will have no rest, EVER!

Revelation 14:11 (NKJV)
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

 

[chingchang]

Revelation 14:11 (NKJV)
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Again, Rev14:11 is talking about a specific group of folks...the ones who worship the Beast and the image of the Beast and receive the mark of his name.

Another way we can know for sure (in addition to Matthew 10:28) that God will destroy people in hell is because it fits with his character as revealed through OT examples. Even Jude tells us this. What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? Total destruction...nothing left. Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of what will happen to the wicked. What happened when God flooded the earth? Total destruction...nothing left. What happened when God ordered the army of Israel against his foes? Total destruction. Nothing left (see my signature tag). Besides...if God allows people to be tortured in hell...without end...that behavior would be incompatible with what the Apostle John tells us...that God is love.

So...you can cling to your false doctrine...which is an invention of man. In the end I guess you'll be disappointed when you find out that those people you hate won't be tortured.

CC

 

[Duckybill]

Again, Rev14:11 is talking about a specific group of folks...the ones who worship the Beast and the image of the Beast and receive the mark of his name.

Yeah, them too.

Another way we can know for sure (in addition to Matthew 10:28) that God will destroy people in hell is because it fits with his character as revealed through OT examples. Even Jude tells us this. What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? Total destruction...nothing left. Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of what will happen to the wicked. What happened when God flooded the earth? Total destruction...nothing left. What happened when God ordered the army of Israel against his foes? Total destruction. Nothing left (see my signature tag).

Yep, God destroyed a lot of bodies for sure.

Besides...if God allows people to be tortured in hell...without end...that behavior would be incompatible with what the Apostle John tells us...that God is love.

Didn't you just tell us about God burning Sodom? God's love?

So...you can cling to your false doctrine...which is an invention of man. In the end I guess you'll be disappointed when you find out that those people you hate won't be tortured.

No need to tell lies to 'prove' your point. I don't hate anyone. Nor do I desire anyone to go to Hell. No doubt, there will be many in Hell for eternity who do not believe in eternal punishment. We can't say we weren't warned, can we?