• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The 'evil' in the Old Testament

Status
Not open for further replies.

addo

Senior Member
Jan 29, 2010
672
49
30
Spain
✟23,549.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
His duty as Judge will then override His love. He cannot claim to love whilst sending people to hell.
No. He found balance between those two. In his love He gave a way for people to be saved from their sins; to repent from their doings and turn away from them. But for those who disobey and do not repent (do not use this opportunity they have from God to be saved) will be punished for He is just and does not let sin go unpunished. This is not a hard concept to understand. He is just but also loving. In His wisdom He found a way to both punish sin and also offer salvation to those whom He loves. But He cannot override His duty as judge just because He loves us and neither forget His love for us because He is judge. But as I said, He found a way between the two. Blessed be He.
 
Upvote 0

guava

Newbie
Oct 25, 2010
53
2
✟22,683.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
Duckybill.

peace

The problem you haven't provided any evidence to support the claim that there is this thing called hell where people get tormented for good.

The verse which you have quoted is significant It seems to suggest that " hell" was prepared for the devil and his angels. Seems to imply this hell is something for the devil and his angels to believe in not me.

Terms like everlasting and forever need to be qualified .Claiming they mean what you seem to think they mean is a reflection of your idea of the world which simply might not tally with what the bible statement .

The wicked will be separated and caste in the fire. This is news to rejoice about and a promise that should comfort us all. the wickedness in each one of us will be taken off and thrown away.

A little humility is called for here. Only the lord is one. We are not one. We are confounding assortment of opposing dualities tearing at each other . that's our problem. the idea we will be made whole again...

jesus says he and the father are one. so the lord is one and Jesus is one. you and i are not one .there is an aberration in us . its called sin. sin is an error . so it's not about punishment . its about fixing an error.

What the almighty said is not necessary what he said if it's a report of what the old mighty have said. The truth here is the truth of a report by the prophet reported by the bible. so it's between a report of a report versus the nature of god . Jesus is nature of god manifested .and the truth of the bible is not at issue. the bible is simply reporting what transpired honestly which is commendable
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

.Iona.

I love Jesus!
Dec 9, 2007
3,175
674
UK
✟50,506.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
UK-Greens
No. He found balance between those two. In his love He gave a way for people to be saved from their sins; to repent from their doings and turn away from them. But for those who disobey and do not repent (do not use this opportunity they have from God to be saved) will be punished for He is just and does not let sin go unpunished. This is not a hard concept to understand. He is just but also loving. In His wisdom He found a way to both punish sin and also offer salvation to those whom He loves. But He cannot override His duty as judge just because He loves us and neither forget His love for us because He is judge. But as I said, He found a way between the two. Blessed be He.

The definition of sin is a controversial one. There are many things that will cause God to punish you for that I, as do many, do not consider acts that should result in eternal torment.

So, whilst you might say that it is God who decides what sin is, and that he has the right to - many people would rather die than have to accept that from a so called loving god.
 
Upvote 0

.Iona.

I love Jesus!
Dec 9, 2007
3,175
674
UK
✟50,506.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
UK-Greens
'that' being what? And why would they die?

You die for your sins right? God will cast you into hell if you don't repent?

There are many things that are controversial - and these things to not deserve death. The OT is full of things that you cannot do, and it ranges from crimes such as murder, so marrying to the wrong person.

In all honesty can you say that cheating on someone is in the same category as murdering someone?! Yet, if you sin it is all the same outcome.
 
Upvote 0

Cain Spencer

God save us all.
Mar 15, 2010
1,747
157
London
✟25,043.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Because you cannot claim to love someone, then the next minute throw them into Hell to burn for eternity. That goes beyond 'Just'.

People compare God to our birth fathers - I know for sure that I dad would love me regardless and would never throw me into a tortuous place.

Are you having a laugh? Your birth father has already brought you into a terrible place, you are on planet earth right?
 
Upvote 0

Duckybill

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2007
2,739
75
✟3,250.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The problem you haven't provided any evidence to support the claim that there is this thing called hell where people get tormented for good.
There's plenty. Just because you don't accept it doesn't change it.
The verse which you have quoted is significant It seems to suggest that " hell" was prepared for the devil and his angels. Seems to imply this hell is something for the devil and his angels to believe in not me.
Yes, the Devil will be there, along with MANY unbelieving humans.
Terms like everlasting and forever need to be qualified .Claiming they mean what you seem to think they mean is a reflection of your idea of the world which simply might not tally with what the bible statement .
I have to wonder about your motives. Forever and everlasting mean just what they say.
The wicked will be separated and caste in the fire. This is news to rejoice about and a promise that should comfort us all.
Rejoice that the wicked will be cast into the fire? Not me.
the wickedness in each one of us will be taken off and thrown away.
If we are not righteous in this life we never will be.

1 Corinthians 6:9 (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived.
there is an aberration in us . its called sin. sin is an error . so it's not about punishment . its about fixing an error.
There is no assurance for those who choose to live sinful lives to enter the Kingdom of God.
What the almighty said is not necessary what he said if it's a report of what the old mighty have said. The truth here is the truth of a report by the prophet reported by the bible. so it's between a report of a report versus the nature of god . Jesus is nature of god manifested .and the truth of the bible is not at issue. the bible is simply reporting what transpired honestly which is commendable
Some of us believe the Bible to be God's Word. Those who don't, have a SERIOUS problem, and that is God Himself.
 
Upvote 0

Duckybill

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2007
2,739
75
✟3,250.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm tempted to ask , when you say some of us , how many are you and who are you .
We are called sheep, we who believe the Bible to be God's Word. There's a few of us. From your comments I must assume you don't believe the Bible to be God's Word. Am I wrong?
 
Upvote 0

guava

Newbie
Oct 25, 2010
53
2
✟22,683.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
I too can say that. I can say that from your comments I assume you don't believe the bible is the word of god.

so what do we do? you like to box ? shall we settle it in the ring ? j/k

It seems as though there are many bibles out depending on who is looking. . A relationship with the bible is a relationship with the bible.

You and I and all the people with their bibles are precious to god, so much so that he gave his only son to save them .i think that's the general idea. God doesn't go after you to punish you. He goes after you to rescue you.. His will is to deliver you .your inescapable destiny is to be saved. This is what he has decreed and the will of god will not be thwarted. It can't be helped. . This is a shepherd who never gives up on his sheep. He finds the sheep. He puts his hand forth and touches the sheep . He lifts it up and he turns it around and he puts it on higher ground. But here is the trick.. Its never you . It is him. He is the one who comes looking for you. He is the one who restores you . .

Practice the art of shepherding. Start small. Take hot food and give it to the homeless. Now when you do that here is my advice to you. Wear gloves because the homeless have all kinds of diseases and they have lice and flees even maybe. This is for your sake because you know how particular you are about those little things in life. Carry a baseball bat with you. This is because some of the homeless are out of their mind and you will find that sometimes you have to give one or two of them a good whack with the bat to get them to behave themselves. Better if there are two of you. One passes the food and the other patrols and makes sure no one acts up. . Myself I do not wear gloves or carry a baseball bat. I'm used to germs.. Despite my age I am still like a bull. All I have to do is reach out and grab the person by their neck and squeeze to make their eyes pop out.. This seldom happens. I just have to give them a small tap with my staff and tell them to hush and they do. They know me well and they know I don't play around.. One of them is my own son. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia and he likes to roam around. .my son has introduced me to the larger family of the mentally ill. i owe him for that . .

The way the shepherd works makes me laugh. God has a sense of humor. I think it is partly us. We make him laugh. To him we probably look totally out of our minds . mistaking what the bible says for what you think it says so that what you think it says is the word of god is just the sort of thing that makes him probably laugh and feel pity for us just the same way I feel sorry for my son and must help him. . .
 
Upvote 0

Duckybill

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2007
2,739
75
✟3,250.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I too can say that. I can say that from your comments I assume you don't believe the bible is the word of god.
If you have followed my posts you would know that I believe the Bible is God's Word.
God doesn't go after you to punish you. He goes after you to rescue you.. His will is to deliver you .your inescapable destiny is to be saved. This is what he has decreed and the will of god will not be thwarted. It can't be helped. . This is a shepherd who never gives up on his sheep. He finds the sheep. He puts his hand forth and touches the sheep . He lifts it up and he turns it around and he puts it on higher ground. But here is the trick.. Its never you . It is him. He is the one who comes looking for you. He is the one who restores you . .
Matthew 22:14 (NKJV)
14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

So then, how many are a "few"?

Practice the art of shepherding. Start small. Take hot food and give it to the homeless. Now when you do that here is my advice to you. Wear gloves because the homeless have all kinds of diseases and they have lice and flees even maybe. This is for your sake because you know how particular you are about those little things in life. Carry a baseball bat with you. This is because some of the homeless are out of their mind and you will find that sometimes you have to give one or two of them a good whack with the bat to get them to behave themselves. Better if there are two of you. One passes the food and the other patrols and makes sure no one acts up. . Myself I do not wear gloves or carry a baseball bat. I'm used to germs.. Despite my age I am still like a bull. All I have to do is reach out and grab the person by their neck and squeeze to make their eyes pop out.. This seldom happens. I just have to give them a small tap with my staff and tell them to hush and they do. They know me well and they know I don't play around.. One of them is my own son. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia and he likes to roam around. .my son has introduced me to the larger family of the mentally ill. i owe him for that . .

The way the shepherd works makes me laugh. God has a sense of humor. I think it is partly us. We make him laugh. To him we probably look totally out of our minds . mistaking what the bible says for what you think it says so that what you think it says is the word of god is just the sort of thing that makes him probably laugh and feel pity for us just the same way I feel sorry for my son and must help him. . .
It's very difficult to take you seriously. I see VERY little regard for God's Word, the Bible in your posts.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

S.O.C

Newbie
Sep 21, 2010
46
0
✟22,660.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Again, Rev14:11 is talking about a specific group of folks...the ones who worship the Beast and the image of the Beast and receive the mark of his name.

Another way we can know for sure (in addition to Matthew 10:28) that God will destroy people in hell is because it fits with his character as revealed through OT examples. Even Jude tells us this. What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? Total destruction...nothing left. Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of what will happen to the wicked. What happened when God flooded the earth? Total destruction...nothing left. What happened when God ordered the army of Israel against his foes? Total destruction. Nothing left (see my signature tag). Besides...if God allows people to be tortured in hell...without end...that behavior would be incompatible with what the Apostle John tells us...that God is love.

So...you can cling to your false doctrine...which is an invention of man. In the end I guess you'll be disappointed when you find out that those people you hate won't be tortured.

CC

There are two different types of death you are relating, the physical body and the spiritual and they are not the same thing. Bible talks about the first death which all human beings will experience, but those who believe and trust by faith in Jesus will not be harmed by the second death. First off, the second death is eternal separation from God...that should be enough to make anyone want to change course but many don't realize that the restraining hand of God prevents all of mankind from the unseen spiritual wickedness that is all around us. In hell, there is; no peace, no joy, no hope and that in itself would be torments, because you can't die and it just never ends. There are more references to hell than heaven in the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

S.O.C

Newbie
Sep 21, 2010
46
0
✟22,660.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Duckybill.

peace

The problem you haven't provided any evidence to support the claim that there is this thing called hell where people get tormented for good.

The verse which you have quoted is significant It seems to suggest that " hell" was prepared for the devil and his angels. Seems to imply this hell is something for the devil and his angels to believe in not me.

Terms like everlasting and forever need to be qualified .Claiming they mean what you seem to think they mean is a reflection of your idea of the world which simply might not tally with what the bible statement .

The wicked will be separated and caste in the fire. This is news to rejoice about and a promise that should comfort us all. the wickedness in each one of us will be taken off and thrown away.

A little humility is called for here. Only the lord is one. We are not one. We are confounding assortment of opposing dualities tearing at each other . that's our problem. the idea we will be made whole again...

jesus says he and the father are one. so the lord is one and Jesus is one. you and i are not one .there is an aberration in us . its called sin. sin is an error . so it's not about punishment . its about fixing an error.

What the almighty said is not necessary what he said if it's a report of what the old mighty have said. The truth here is the truth of a report by the prophet reported by the bible. so it's between a report of a report versus the nature of god . Jesus is nature of god manifested .and the truth of the bible is not at issue. the bible is simply reporting what transpired honestly which is commendable


Guava, I just want to say I really like you, but I still haven't figured out what Hand your playing. I believe you have a sincere genuiness to the word of God but what you say is conflicting with the word of God more often than not which leaves myself and others wondering why? Maybe you have a different bible...I don't know but I like you anyway.

Correct! Hell was originally created for satan and his rebellious angels because they were the first to rebel against God. Man was never created for the lake of fire or hell but than again neither were Gods Angels. All sin is a form of rebellion against god. So in truth the lake of fire and hell was created for those who rebel against God. If Jesus, did not go the cross and bare our sins against God we would suffer the same fate as Satan and his demons. Those who do not accept Christ have chosen that fate for themselves.

You comment about "The wicked will be separated and caste in the fire."

Note: It says the "wicked" not the wicked deeds, will be separated. The separation is referring to separation of the wicked from the Justified who stand in the righteousness of Christ. The wicked will have the eternal separation from God. It's not some inner demon or sense of bad nature played out by sinful deeds. God would not gives us his spoken word to mislead or confuse the believer. It's not written in spiritual dialect its written with the human understanding in mind. Those who except Christ have the ability by the Holy Spirit to understand the bible in a way that those who close their minds to Christ and God can't. But what is written is written for all to read and for all to see. But harden hearts are a stumbling block and only those who believe truly see.
Seeing is not for a special group of people with a heighten sense of God, it is for all who believe and follow by Faith in Christ.

You make some good points though! And I enjoy our dialog.
 
Upvote 0

S.O.C

Newbie
Sep 21, 2010
46
0
✟22,660.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The definition of sin is a controversial one. There are many things that will cause God to punish you for that I, as do many, do not consider acts that should result in eternal torment.

So, whilst you might say that it is God who decides what sin is, and that he has the right to - many people would rather die than have to accept that from a so called loving god.

It's quite evident throughout the Bible that God does not want people to go to hell. He has given everyone an easy way out but why do you rebel against God? He gives free will and offers everyone the gift of eternal life even though a person can spend a majority of their earthly existence defying God. Only a loving God would consume so much abuse and yet be willing to render the sinner blameless.

If a person is drowning in water and I throw a life preserver to them then the smart thing for the drowning person to do is use what I have provided to save themself but if that person is hostel towards me and pushes the preserver away and they drown, would that be my fault? After all I did not put the person in the water to begin with.

God has not caused you or I to sin, he has given us an assurance to salvation through his Son but if you push away what God has tried to offer than you will drown by your own accord in the lake of fire.

If I am wrong about God and hell then we will all share the same non-existence fate after death and I will have been diluted in my thinking. However, if I am correct than hell is real for those people who reject God through Christ and regardless of weather a person feels that God is not justified to be God does not change the outcome.
 
Upvote 0

guava

Newbie
Oct 25, 2010
53
2
✟22,683.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
What is so hard to understand about this … when you say bible what you are actually saying is the bible according to you.. You're not the truth. There is you who is not the truth and there is the bible. The two add up to a relationship. Since one of the two parties in the relationship is you who is not the truth then the relationship is not the truth. You are mixing up between the bible and the relationship you have with it . You're the observer, the bible is the observed. You are confusing between the phenomenal thinking it is the nominal. It is not .

Guys the problem has been and has always been eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man is caught inextricably in a world of dualities and opposites. Good and evil. Right and wrong. Man and woman. The only way to salvation is to fix the world and return it to the way it was before Adam ate from the tree of knowledge. The problem is larger than all of us. We work to save the world then you are saved. Without saving the world there is no saving for anyone .

I will pick one passages in the bible to illustrate that point.. It's not really the best but it is the easiest. But it’s appropriate to the discussion because of this business about sheep which you have raised . .

1Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Okay now count the dualities /opposites in the passage. Here are a few by me. Lord and son of David. God and man . Lost sheep of Israel and lost gentile woman . Children of god and dogs. . Jesus and a gentile woman. Man and woman. The will of Jesus and the will of the woman. You can if you like add more ….. a gentile woman not baptized and Jesus and disciples baptized . Gentile woman who worshiped baal and jews who worship god . Gentile woman who never heard of Abraham nor read one single line of scripture such our brother mister duckbill keeps hitting me with talking about the bible is the word god and experts of the scripture …etc

First she comes at him with what apparently is an affront to monotheism. She calls him lord and son of David. This is because she worshiped him which is an act reserved to be done only for the benefit of god and at the same time called him son of David who is a man.. As is usually the case with Jesus when you come to him with a show of faith he let you slide even though he knows you don't know what you're talking about . he grants her that show of faith in him. He comes at her from a different angel. She is not one of the lost of the sheep of Israel he says to her. In effect if the woman is denying the duality between him and god ,how about this one , how about Jew and gentile . how about the chosen people and the not chosen people. . she doesn't fall for it . she persists. Frankly I'm not surprised. This is a mother and no opposites are going to stand between her and her daughter getting healed . actually if you note in the bible its women who win over Jesus .so in your life don't argue with the woman because you will not win. Just be happy she lets you watch Sunday sports. Then Jesus hits her with the big one. No bread of the children of god for the dogs. It doesn't work. It never works. This is like me telling my woman this the nway its going to be .she just ignores me . she knows I will give in. but she can't be bothered because at the time she is busy cutting coupons out of the Sunday papers. The woman delivers a TKO. She goes to jesus ..yeah yeah but the dogs eat from the bread too. opps the duality doesn't hold. He makes his son shine on everyone. Infact with god you never can tell.. His will is unfathomable. Eating from the tree of knowledge and good doesn't tell you anything. You save a man from drowning and he goes and murder someone. What have you done? . Then comes the finale . He tells her it will done as she will . Her will was sort of transformed by faith in the Christ from the will of woman to the will of god. St Augustine says blessed is who whose every will is realized.

Just think how many millions of people got killed because of monotheism. They are getting murdered because of that even today. Take the following duality….. Lost sheep of Israel versus gentile. Add Jews and gentile , Christians and Jews and Muslims and Hindus . add all fo them . All of those fall under that duality. This is one of thoe troublesome dualities because of which millions upon million got killed and will get killed .Next duality… The children of god versus the doomed . This duality is about the most troubling of all. The true believers would have people go to hell and be tormented for good on account of it .true believers love to dehumanize people with that duality . . But you see this gentile woman get to have her daughter healed while all the true believers with the long beards and the impressive religious know how their daughters don't get to be healed.

A world without dualities . How can that be? Piece of cake in a way. Judge not. In aaother way it’s difficult . You sort of cut off the head of the snake but he doesn't go anywhere . he grows back inside you. teh wicked is inside you. and so is the good .in yet another way it's beyond your wildest dreams. to go on that road you have to first overcome your fear. its says the beginning of knowledge is fear of god. so you have to overcome that fear to move to the next arena . . it gets far more difficult after that
.
okay i think i'm done here . don't kill me please . remember you said you like me. . i"m holding you to that .

hey if you like me then you like everyone. this is the trick to the art of liking .
.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Duckybill

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2007
2,739
75
✟3,250.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why are there so many humans who think they are wiser than God's Word?

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV)
13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received THE WORD OF GOD which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, THE WORD OF GOD, which also effectively works in you who believe.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.