The ethics of voting for Donald Trump

[FireDragon76]

Relativism eats itself as it opens its own principles up to a relativistic critique. How do we know the proposition that there are no universal truths is true if there are no universal truths, including that proposition?

It seems to me all ethics is relational, since it involves persons, and is therefore "relative".

And @expos4ever makes a good rebuttal far better than I could.

 

[KarlKarlingIII]

I think your argument has a problem. To assert that there are no MORAL absolutes does not mean there are no OTHER kinds of absolutes, such as the claim that there are no moral absolutes (this claim is NOT a moral claim, even though it is a claim ABOUT morals).

The Buddhist quote we are discussing does not refer to “moral absolutes”, but rather “changeless, absolute truth”. The word moral was not used. The quote certainly has wisdom in it in that we should avoid hastily making claims, but it is also an absolute denying truth.

You were the one who took what I said and twisted it.
Handing out condoms to teenagers will encourage premarital sex. It sends a message of "Heres a condom, I am giving it to you because I expect you will need it" Got one, may as well try it out. They need to know that having sex is an adult responsibility and all the risks associated with it.



Abstinence should be taught and some young people do practice abstinence. Have you not seen purity rings? As wrong as it is to assume teenagers won't have sex it is also wrong to assume all teenagers will have sex. Some teenagers are more mature than some adults. They also need to know how pregnancy happens, STD's and know about the different forms of BC and all its associated risks.
Common side effects of oral contraceptives include:

• intermenstrual spotting
• nausea
• breast tenderness
• headaches and migraine
• weight gain
• mood changes
• missed periods
• decreased libido
• vaginal discharge
• changes to eyesight for those using contact lenses
  
• Along with may prevent implantation of a fertilized ovum.

Again people seem so blase about handing out medicalized drugs to young people.

The other thing which regular school-based sex education lacks is ethics and the effect on the emotional and spiritual side of things. A lot of girls give into boys because boys pressurize them.



By 'free' you mean taxpayers pay for them so kids can go have sex? If these kids are fully informed and won't practice abstinence then they can also be mature enough to go pay for them. A girl should know that any boy she sleeps with is potentially the father of her baby, even if protection is used. I think many kids are not given the hard raw truth but a glossed over rosy version. A packet of condoms and they think they are free as a bird; meanwhile emotional, spiritual and physical calamities they were not ready for may be just around the corner.

Birth control is not even expensive; I have never understood that argument for giving it out “free”. But I suppose like any passion it begins to absorb your resources and energy and soul.

Young adults are more in the know than unimaginative education bureaucrats think. The sexual education class is more about pushing ideology than information.

 

[coffee4u]

Birth control is not even expensive; I have never understood that argument for giving it out “free”. But I suppose like any passion it begins to absorb your resources and energy and soul.

Young adults are more in the know than unimaginative education bureaucrats think. The sexual education class is more about pushing ideology than information.

I just went and checked Coles supermarket online.
$15.00 AUD for pack of 30 = 50 cents each.

 

[Go Braves]

Birth control is not even expensive; I have never understood that argument for giving it out “free”. But I suppose like any passion it begins to absorb your resources and energy and soul.

Young adults are more in the know than unimaginative education bureaucrats think. The sexual education class is more about pushing ideology than information.

Totally depends on what kind of birth control is used. Cheap condoms can be bought in some vending machines but most fellows do not want to use them regularly. The birth control gals use can in fact be pretty darned expensive, especially if they have to go to the Dr. to get a prescription for it first. Most guys who are in a committed relationship would rather the oral contraceptives be used than for them to wrap up.

I know plenty of young folks who think the pull out method works & not realize you can get STDs from oral sex.

Sex education def. needs to be taught.

 

[Isilwen]

I asked my girlfriend, as she's on birth control in order to control her period each month so that they are more on a regular schedule, how much she pays. It is free through her insurance, but if she paid full price it would be over $360 for a 90 day supply.

Hardly inexpensive!

 

[Go Braves]

I asked my girlfriend, as she's on birth control in order to control her period each month so that they are more on a regular schedule, how much she pays. It is free through her insurance, but if she paid full price it would be over $360 for a 90 day supply.

Hardly inexpensive!

Same with my girl. She has to see her dr. to get the prescription, so that adds to the expense. In some places the ladies can get the prescription direct from the pharmacy or even through an app. But where she lives, nope, gotta see the dr. for it, pay for that visit, get the prescription, fill it. It's not fully covered by her insurance, so she does pay out of pocket every month. She'd been on a less expensive one but didn't like the side effects so she switched to one that is costlier but better.

A gal on here said that in Cali Planned Parenthood provides the birth control for free for low income ladies and for younger women, without a big hassle. They can also order it through the app! But where my girl lives, that's not possible on account of how there's not a PP nearby.

 

[Sparagmos]

You were the one who took what I said and twisted it.
Handing out condoms to teenagers will encourage premarital sex.

Dude. First you accuse me of twisting your words, then go on to admit to exactly what I said I thought you were saying!

They need to know that having sex is an adult responsibility and all the risks associated with it.

. Most people that have abortions are adults. We’re not just talking about teenagers here. But I’m noticing that you’re not focused on reducing abortions, so much as making ppl take responsibility for their actions. Interesting.

Have you not seen purity rings?

Have you not seen Miley Cyrus?

Purity rings are a sham. Like any girl with conservative Christian parents would or could decline the purity ring, or admit to not being “pure.” I was steeped in purity culture and, like many young women, I waited a little longer to have sex, but when I did I had unprotected sex. In fact, abstinence pledges seem ti increase the likelihood of unplanned pregnancy:

“The results were even more striking for out-of-wedlock pregnancy: About 18 percent of the girls who had never taken virginity pledges became pregnant within six years after they began having sex. Meanwhile, 30 percent of those who had taken a pledge—and broken it—got pregnant while not married.”

How Purity Pledges Lead to Unintended Pregnancies and STDs

Common side effects of oral contraceptives include:

Im aware of the side affects of the pill. I’m personally against using the pill because of them. I don’t know why you keep cutting and pasting this stuff. But none of those side affects are as bad as killing a baby, which is purportedly what we are trying to prevent.

The other thing which regular school-based sex education lacks is ethics and the effect on the emotional and spiritual side of things. A lot of girls give into boys because boys pressurize them.

The purity culture I was raised in is unethical. The shaming of women over “losing virginity” is unethical.

THIS is unethical:

By 'free' you mean taxpayers pay for them so kids can go have sex?

Yes - that’s what the countries with lower abortion rates than the U.S. do.

 

[KarlKarlingIII]

Totally depends on what kind of birth control is used. Cheap condoms can be bought in some vending machines but most fellows do not want to use them regularly. The birth control gals use can in fact be pretty darned expensive, especially if they have to go to the Dr. to get a prescription for it first. Most guys who are in a committed relationship would rather the oral contraceptives be used than for them to wrap up.

I know plenty of young folks who think the pull out method works & not realize you can get STDs from oral sex.

Sex education def. needs to be taught.

Totally depends on what kind of birth control is used. Cheap condoms can be bought in some vending machines but most fellows do not want to use them regularly. The birth control gals use can in fact be pretty darned expensive, especially if they have to go to the Dr. to get a prescription for it first. Most guys who are in a committed relationship would rather the oral contraceptives be used than for them to wrap up.

I know plenty of young folks who think the pull out method works & not realize you can get STDs from oral sex.

Sex education def. needs to be taught.

If you want to teach your own children about that, no one is stopping you from doing so. The secular crusade to “enlighten” the supposed country bumpkins through compulsory education about sex goes against the principles of religious freedom which they claim to cherish. It is a fraud to corrupt the souls, a great tragedy, leaving many broken hearts in its wake.

 

[Sparagmos]

In that moment, yes. Lust has more in common with hate than it does with love.

What? Lust exists both inside and outside marriage, as does deep love and commitment. Don’t speak of what you do not know.

 

[Sparagmos]

That is not the Christian view of sex, which has the primary purpose of bearing children that you did not mention. We were also discussing sex outside marriage, which the scriptures absolutely condemn because it is an obfuscation of the purpose of sex.

This website provides an adequate definition:
Orthodoxy and Recovery: A Definition of inappropriate contenteia

Lust is, at its very core, the desire to use another person. It involves all kinds of manipulations, of which sex is but a single (though powerful) component. Lust is the dehumanization of others... It is not merely wanting to have sex, but to use others for that purpose without any genuine care for them.

You are not the decider of what the Christian view of sex is. Your ideas about the quality and nature of premarital sex are not remotely founded in reality. I had the same kind of deep, meaningful sex with my boyfriends that I have with my husband.

 

[coffee4u]

Dude. First you accuse me of twisting your words, then go on to admit to exactly what I said I thought you were saying!

This is what I was referring to, you said to me:

You are living in a fantasy world if you think that people are going to start having sex because they have access and education around birth control, or that not providing condoms will prevent premarital sex.

So the first point I disagreed was that I never said people are going to have sex because they have access to education.

The second point was I never said condoms should not be available, I said they shouldn't be handed out for free. There is a difference. which is why I also said they should be cheap-which they are as I confirmed a few posts ago. 50 cents each AUD. No idea how that relates to US prices.

Following on from that I said abstinence should be taught along with the hard truth of STD's, pregnancy, birth control and it's side effects, not be glossed over.

Most people that have abortions are adults. We’re not just talking about teenagers here. But I’m noticing that you’re not focused on reducing abortions, so much as making ppl take responsibility for their actions. Interesting.

About Teen Pregnancy | CDC
Teen pregnancy rate looks pretty darn high to me. Is there data somewhere showing how many women getting abortions are teens vs adults?

I am very much against abortion which is why I am against all forms of chemical birth control. These girls need to be encouraged to give their babies up for adoption or keep them not kill them. My point was if they really knew the risks beforehand along with the emotional and spiritual ramifications, that more would practice abstinence and those who don't would be more responsible. It would be great if we got up and said practice abstinence and they all said "Wow she's right" problem solved. I do know that won't happen, many of those kids will be having sex, so the next step after that is to encourage responsibility. That, in turn, lowers the abortion rate. Then for those who do get pregnant encouraging adoption and keeping babies again reduces the abortion rate.

Have you not seen Miley Cyrus?

Some singing, blond, half undressed young person. I don't pay much attention to current music.

Purity rings are a sham. Like any girl with conservative Christian parents would or could decline the purity ring, or admit to not being “pure.” I was steeped in purity culture and, like many young women, I waited a little longer to have sex, but when I did I had unprotected sex. In fact, abstinence pledges seem ti increase the likelihood of unplanned pregnancy

You can't speak for other people, that was you and you alone that made that irresponsible choice. There are many young people who take celibacy seriously.

“The results were even more striking for out-of-wedlock pregnancy: About 18 percent of the girls who had never taken virginity pledges became pregnant within six years after they began having sex. Meanwhile, 30 percent of those who had taken a pledge—and broken it—got pregnant while not married.”

Which probably goes back to why they made the pledge in the first place. From their own strong felt convictions or because mum said they should or their friends were doing it and they joined in? Huge difference.

Im aware of the side affects of the pill. I’m personally against using the pill because of them. I don’t know why you keep cutting and pasting this stuff. But none of those side affects are as bad as killing a baby, which is purportedly what we are trying to prevent.

The pill and other chemical methods may prevent implantation of a fertilized ovum.

That is killing a baby.

The purity culture I was raised in is unethical. The shaming of women over “losing virginity” is unethical.

I don't know what 'purity culture' you were raised in but there is nothing unethical about teaching our children what the Bible teaches and that they should wait for marriage.

 

[KarlKarlingIII]

What? Lust exists both inside and outside marriage, as does deep love and commitment. Don’t speak of what you do not know.

Those arrangements end and it leaves broken hearts and empty souls behind. Don’t talk down to us.

 

[Sparagmos]

Those arrangements end and it leaves broken hearts and empty souls behind. Don’t talk down to us.

So do broken marriages. Do you actually think a broken heart can only be derived from meaningless sex? If make the outlandish claim that premarital sex is simply about selfish lust you are demonstrating a lack of experience and awareness.

 

[Strathos]

I understand and sympathize with the desire to outlaw abortion. However, it would likely just compound the problem. There are better ways.

 

[Quackduck]

I am of the opinion that Trump is the worst president the US has had in my lifetime and Obama the best.

 

[gaara4158]

There are men in office who believe that rape cannot result in pregnancy because the female body has ways of “shutting it down” if the sex was forced. People need sex ed.

 

[KCfromNC]

With the IRS, it's rules for thee but not for me.

Responses like this make me think there's no reasonable reply to what I proposed.

 

[FireDragon76]

Those arrangements end and it leaves broken hearts and empty souls behind. Don’t talk down to us.

Everything is marked by impermanence and dissatisfaction, heartache is inevitable. That doesn't make a thing bad or evil. If people have less-than-ideal relationships, that doesn't warrant equating them with vice. It's much better to support people according to their dispositions, than to attempt to stigmatize or punish them.

 

[expos4ever]

The Buddhist quote we are discussing does not refer to “moral absolutes”, but rather “changeless, absolute truth”. The word moral was not used. The quote certainly has wisdom in it in that we should avoid hastily making claims, but it is also an absolute denying truth.

The point is that you appear to be arguing thus:

1. Moral relativists assert that there are no moral absolutes;
2. The claim that there are no moral absolutes is itself an “absolute” claim.
3. Point 1 and 2 contradict each other.
4. Therefore, relativism “eats its own tail”.

This reasoning has two problems:

1. It is NOT a contradiction to claim that it is an absolute truth that there are no moral absolutes; this is because the question of the existence of moral absolutes is not itself a MORAL claim.

2. Even more importantly, the person who argues for moral relativism almost certainly does NOT believe that he or she is 100% certain that he or she is correct with absolute certainty. So even apart from point number 1, the claim that moral relativism “eats its own tail” has no merit whatsoever.

 

[KarlKarlingIII]

The point is that you appear to be arguing thus:

1. Moral relativists assert that there are no moral absolutes;
2. The claim that there are no moral absolutes is itself an “absolute” claim.
3. Point 1 and 2 contradict each other.
4. Therefore, relativism “eats its own tail”.

This reasoning has two problems:

1. It is NOT a contradiction to claim that it is an absolute truth that there are no moral absolutes; this is because the question of the existence of moral absolutes is not itself a MORAL claim.

2. Even more importantly, the person who argues for moral relativism almost certainly does NOT believe that he or she is 100% certain that he or she is correct with absolute certainty. So even apart from point number 1, the claim that moral relativism “eats its own tail” has no merit whatsoever.

I speak of truth only. I do not differentiate moral truth as it’s own category.

So do broken marriages. Do you actually think a broken heart can only be derived from meaningless sex? If make the outlandish claim that premarital sex is simply about selfish lust you are demonstrating a lack of experience and awareness.

A man can die in many ways. Getting hit by a bus is not the only way to die, but it is certainly a way to die.
The fact that there are other ways to die does not somehow endorse one jumping in front of a bus.