The Ethics of Modified Livestock

[Jade Margery]

So over the past few days a couple different sources have gotten me thinking about animal rights, vegetarians vs. omnivores, and the progression of science in the meat industry. There was the thread about pigs, for instance, and then I read this article on Cracked (warning, Cracked articles often contain naughty words): 5 Insane Farm Secrets Behind the Food on Your Grocery List

One of the entries is this cow:

While one might suspect steroids at a glance, the Belgian Blue is actually the result of a natural genetic mutation that has been cultivated by breeders since its appearance. The meat produced is much leaner and better for you than other kinds of cow, and there is also a lot more of it.

There is also another entry about taking genes from one species and splicing them into another.

In light of this, and the recent pig-eating thread, and also mixing in some fond memories of the meat beast in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe (from the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy) I was wondering...



First of all, would it be (and should it be) possible to engineer an animal that feels no pain? Some humans have genetic disorders that cause them to feel no pain whatsoever, and I assume that other species have them too. This is usually very dangerous for people because they can't tell if they are hurt or not, but it would be a boon for livestock sent to the slaughter house.

And then I thought, what if they couldn't feel anything at all? What if we could produce a kind of cow or pig that was born in a vegetative state--perhaps encephalitic, or with such reduced brain matter that it was incapable of feeling pain, anxiety, unhappiness, desires... basically a living meat generator without thoughts or feelings.

So this brings up some questions.

Is it okay to do this? Remember, we are not talking about modifying already existing animals, but basically causing them to be born braindead genetically so that their mental 'selves' never exist.

Is it any different from growing meat cultures in a lab? If so, why?

If you are a vegetarian for moral reasons (not wanting to cause pain and suffering to animals) would you be okay with eating this kind of meat?

Would you be okay with this if it were done using selective breeding techniques (used on domesticated animals for thousands of years) instead of direct genetic manipulation in a single generation?

What would PETA think?

 

[Paradoxum]

I guess it might be ok. I would rather have the meat grown in a lab than a brain dead animal though.

 

[ebia]

Some degree of brain activity, including feeling pain, iis necessary for animals to operate. A sheep that doesn't feel anything is going to quickly end up damaged and then dead.

I'm not vegetarian but it wouldn't bother me at all to not eat meat. The ethics of killing animals for meat isn't an issue for me - its part of how things are. Indeed the vast majority of wild animals die much more stressful deaths than livestock. I am concerned about the environmental cost of the massive over consumption of meat in the western world (and the extent to which environmentally sustainable meats like kangaroo are under-utilised).

 

[ThatRobGuy]

With the history of food engineering, I'd be hesitant to eat anything grown in a lab or off of an animal that had an intentional gene mutation.

Currently, I try to eat only free range chicken & grass fed beef or bison. Not because I have a moral objection to how they're treated in a big slaughterhouse (much like a lion wouldn't feel sympathy for a gazelle when it bites its neck), but because I'd prefer to eat an animal that it was fed its natural diet. If you look at when cancer & heart disease really started to spike, it was during the agricultural boom in our history (when they started injecting animals with growth hormone, altering their genes, feeding cows corn instead of grass, etc...)

Humans have eaten meat for generations and generations, yet meat didn't become a hue health risk until genetic alterations started taking place...

So short answer...no, I wouldn't eat meat that was genetically altered in any way.

 

[ebia]

Humans have eaten meat for generations and generations, ...

Well, yes and no. People have eaten some meat for a very long time, but excepting some small unusual groups it has only very recently become the massive part of the diet it currently is in nations like the US and Australia. We eat far more meat than is either good for us or sustainable.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Well, yes and no. People have eaten some meat for a very long time, but excepting some small unusual groups it has only very recently become the massive part of the diet it currently is in nations like the US and Australia. We eat far more meat than is either good for us or sustainable.

The massive health problems didn't start happening until people started following the botched food pyramid.

While you do need some carbs in your diet (from fruits & veggies), there's no way their recommendation of 300 carbs per day is accurate. Unless they're suggesting that our ancestors were eating 30 servings of broccoli per day.

 

[ebia]

The massive health problems didn't start happening until people started following the botched food pyramid.

While you do need some carbs in your diet (from fruits & veggies), there's no way their recommendation of 300 carbs per day is accurate. Unless they're suggesting that our ancestors were eating 30 servings of broccoli per day.

Until very recently most people's diet has been largely grains, supplemented with a little fruit, vegetables, nuts, dairy and (if near the sea) fish. Of course those grains were whole meal and the diet was much more seasonal, not processed and more varied than most modern western diets.

 

[eckhart]

its the same gene engineering they use for vegetables and crops but to make animals without the mental events?
i think it eliminates the suffering side of meat production and the ethical concern for me as a vegan, so if i had to eat meat i would chose it from a source like this where the animal never knew pain.
PETA promote the free range and organic choice for an animals life, but in this case they wouldnt feel pain, a better ethical outcome for both people and animals

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Until very recently most people's diet has been largely grains, supplemented with a little fruit, vegetables, nuts, dairy and (if near the sea) fish. Of course those grains were whole meal and the diet was much more seasonal, not processed and more varied than most modern western diets.

Do you have a source for this?

I've been reading books from Dr. Eades, Dr. Al Sears, & Gary Taubes and they're saying otherwise.

 

[ebia]

Do you have a source for this?

Not to hand.

 

[ebia]

I've been reading books from Dr. Eades, Dr. Al Sears, & Gary Taubes and they're saying otherwise.

Who's historical diets are they looking at?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Who's historical diets are they looking at?

The human race in general (IE: cavemen)

 

[elephunky]

Well, yes and no. People have eaten some meat for a very long time, but excepting some small unusual groups it has only very recently become the massive part of the diet it currently is in nations like the US and Australia. We eat far more meat than is either good for us or sustainable.

I dont think we are designed to eat meat, so this should be an indicator that we should be eating little to no meat.

You just have to look at our teeth and digestive system...if you ran into a paddock and tried to bite the backside of a cow for your dinner, you might find it a little difficult.

Personally, there is no way I would eat modified livestock. I have seen some bad pictures of a modifed chicken... Yeah no thanks.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I dont think we are designed to eat meat, so this should be an indicator that we should be eating little to no meat.

You just have to look at our teeth and digestive system...if you ran into a paddock and tried to bite the backside of a cow for your dinner, you might find it a little difficult.

Personally, there is no way I would eat modified livestock. I have seen some bad pictures of a modifed chicken... Yeah no thanks.

In another thread, we're sort of discussing the same thing. I lost 13 pounds (and gained muscle) going high meat, low carb.

I look at the track record of our caveman ancestors up until now. When they were eating more meat and less agricultural foods, they had better teeth, they were taller, leaner...

People didn't start getting short & fat, and diabetes wasn't nearly the problem it is now, until people started eating a bunch of insulin spiking foods. What kinds of foods spike insulin? Starch and sugar. If you ever want to do a interesting study, take a look at the glycemic index of some of the foods that are supposed to be good for you. Special K & Wheat bread have a glycemic almost as a high as pure table sugar (meaning they'll spike your blood sugar just as fast)

 

[elephunky]

In another thread, we're sort of discussing the same thing. I lost 13 pounds (and gained muscle) going high meat, low carb.

I look at the track record of our caveman ancestors up until now. When they were eating more meat and less agricultural foods, they had better teeth, they were taller, leaner...

People didn't start getting short & fat, and diabetes wasn't nearly the problem it is now, until people started eating a bunch of insulin spiking foods. What kinds of foods spike insulin? Starch and sugar. If you ever want to do a interesting study, take a look at the glycemic index of some of the foods that are supposed to be good for you. Special K & Wheat bread have a glycemic almost as a high as pure table sugar (meaning they'll spike your blood sugar just as fast)

Have you seen the documentary called forks over knives? It goes through an extensive study of the effect meat is having on our health. And not just meat I am pretty sure they cover animal fat in general as well.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Have you seen the documentary called forks over knives? It goes through an extensive study of the effect meat is having on our health. And not just meat I am pretty sure they cover animal fat in general as well.

I've seen parts of it.

Have you ever seen the documentary called "Fathead"? A guy (under the advice of Dr. Eades), eats nothing but tons of meats (saturated animal fats), greens covered in butter, and keeps the carbs low (no bread or grains), at the end of the one month diet, his total cholesterol goes down (with a rise in HDL - the good cholesterol) he loses 3% of his body fat, and drops 12.5 pounds.

The impacts of meat (if any) would be do to the processing that happens to the meats before it gets to our plates. Thus the reason I stick with free range when I eat chicken, and whenever possible stick with grass fed for my beef & bison.

 

[elephunky]

I've seen parts of it.

Have you ever seen the documentary called "Fathead"? A guy (under the advice of Dr. Eades), eats nothing but tons of meats (saturated animal fats), greens covered in butter, and keeps the carbs low (no bread or grains), at the end of the one month diet, his total cholesterol goes down (with a rise in HDL - the good cholesterol) he loses 3% of his body fat, and drops 12.5 pounds.

The impacts of meat (if any) would be do to the processing that happens to the meats before it gets to our plates. Thus the reason I stick with free range when I eat chicken, and whenever possible stick with grass fed for my beef & bison.

Thats just over a month though right? I would be interested to see the results after a couple of years of that kind of diet.

Thats fair enough, we definitely consume too many processed foods.

 

[Jro]

I've been both vegetarian and low carb. Not clean and dainty, eat fish and lean protein, but BIG HEAPING PILES OF BACON AND STEAK every day. I lost 30 lbs, put on a ton of muscle and became a Tyrannosaurus rex.

I mean yeah, meats bad for you, don't eat any of the bacon.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Thats just over a month though right? I would be interested to see the results after a couple of years of that kind of diet.

Thats fair enough, we definitely consume too many processed foods.

Actually, it has been a couple years since he made the movie and I'm pretty sure he's still doing it, here's his website.

Fat Head - Blog site for the comedy-documentary Fat Head

I haven't read it in detail in a while, but he used to still keep his food log and bi-yearly blood test results up to date on here.

 

[ebia]

The human race in general (IE: cavemen)

If you're talking pre-agriculture (I wasn't - very few people lived then) then the balance would be different. You'd have less grain, more meat and tubers. But you would also be talking about much less food in general (and longer periods with little or none), hunted meat (mostly quite different from farmed livestock) massive seasonality. A diet utterly different from and not sustainable for the modern population. Trying to emulate that's a non-starter on a large scale, except for the "eat less, eat seasonally" bit.

More important to me is what can be sustained. A high meat diet cannot; it's essentially gready.