The Error of Lordship Salvation?

[public hermit]

With Paul's expert foundation of "believing what you heard" being laid and that "being counted as righteousness", obedience is freely urged.

The second one tries to justify with works, grace is nullified. Paul lays it all out so clearly in his letters, only the stubborn miss it.

Right. Can one be justified and yet not become engaged in the process of sanctification? I seriously doubt it. Why else should we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, even while knowing God enables?

My initial comment was about the possibility of having Christ as Savior, but not as Lord. To me, the two go together or not at all.

 

[GraceInChrist]

By faith apart from the works of obedience which necessarily accompany true faith,
belief and obedience being the same Greek word (peitho).
Didn't matter, he believed God. shown by his obedience in leaving Mesopotamia (Acts 7:2) to go to Haran, and then leaving Haran to go to Canaan (Genesis 12:1-5).

By faith apart from the works of obedience which necessarily accompany true faith,
belief and obedience being the same Greek word (peitho).
Didn't matter, he believed God, shown by his obedience in leaving Mesopotamia (Acts 7:2)
to go to Haran, and then leaving Haran to go to Canaan (Genesis 12:1-5).

If that was the case, Abraham has something to boast infront of the Father. We are save apart of the works of the law. Romans 4:3-4.

 

[GraceInChrist]

Right. Can one be justified and yet not become engaged in the process of sanctification? I seriously doubt it. Why else should we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, even while knowing God enables?

My initial comment was about the possibility of having Christ as Savior, but not as Lord. To me, the two go together or not at all.

Becuase apostasy was a thing. There were many false teachers, and persecution made many walk away from trusting God.

In the apostate mind, God has betrayed me. I no longer will have faith in his promise.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

If Lordship salvation is true, then a majority of the world's Christians are doomed to hell and the unbelieving world has little hope of becoming saved. Please consider the implications.

 

[public hermit]

That is not the problem, you shouldnt doubt he loves you do to your life style and works of the law. He does, and will always be for you. No matter how many times you fall, he is there cover your sins. We have the spirit of adoption, not one of fear.

I'm not advocating fear, just saying it's foolish to presume on grace as if there are no expectations. There are. Jesus gave us a command to love, not a suggestion. Sure, we can have confidence, which is partly confirmed in our struggle to obey, but that confidence can never be reduced to the fact that I believe. It's not as if my belief makes grace happen. If I believe, grace was already happening.

And what is it I believe? I believe that I am being transformed into his image from one degree of glory to another? How? Obedience. Abiding in his love by loving as he loved me. That's faith. There's no fear in love, but love cannot be reduced to mere belief.

 

[Clare73]

The only obedience required to become saved is to "believe in the one He has sent." (John 6:29)

Which true belief in him produces obedience to him.

 

[d taylor]

Does an atheist have to do anything, to not believe in God for Eternal Life.

Does a person have to do anything (beside believe) to believe men went to the moon. And i am one who does not believe men went to the moon. I know i did not have to do anything to not believe, besides simply not believing the evidence for going to the moon.

So if a person does not have to do anything to not believe. Why does a person have to do something more than just simply believing the evidence, that Jesus is the promised Messiah from The Tanakh's prophecies and trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[GraceInChrist]

I'm not advocating fear, just saying it's foolish to presume on grace as if there are no expectations. There are. Jesus gave us a command to love, not a suggestion. Sure, we can have confidence, which is partly confirmed in our struggle to obey, but that confidence can never be reduced to the fact that I believe. It's not as if my belief makes grace happen. If I believe, grace was already happening.

And what is it I believe? I believe that I am being transformed into his image from one degree of glory to another? How? Obedience. Abiding in his love by loving as he loved me. That's faith. There's no fear in love, but love cannot be reduced to mere belief.

You will have an Adam nature through out your life. It will not go away by following the law. Sanctification only happens by the holy ghost. At this point you are already save, and promised eternal life.

 

[public hermit]

Love is not a work of the law. It is a fruit of the spirit.

When we love God, we trust him. We know he will save us. Can love bloom, in fear or distrust.

Love is an act of obedience. Loving our enemies, for instance, is not going to be our default position, probably. Love is not some magical thing that just happens. We have to work at it. But when we love, especially when we don't want to, that is obedience. I'm not saying that obedience saves us. I agree with you. But, what I'm getting at is, if Jesus is our Savior, he will also be Lord. And he was very specific about what that entails: love.

 

[GraceInChrist]

Which true belief in him produces obedience to him.

Only in the spirit by the law of faith. By the flesh, no man can be justified. We need to wait our glorification. Just as Abraham had Isaac, if we doubt his promise and we may became bound by birth to Agar instead of Sarah.

 

[Clare73]

If Lordship salvation is true, then a majority of the world's Christians are doomed to hell

Looks like we need to do a better job of preaching the gospel.

]and the unbelieving world has little hope of becoming saved. Please consider the implications.

No one has ever been saved without true faith, which produces obedience.

 

[GraceInChrist]

Love is an act of obedience. Loving our enemies, for instance, is not going to be our default position, probably. Love is not some magical thing that just happens. We have to work at it. But when we love, especially when we don't want to, that is obedience. I'm not saying that obedience saves us. I agree with you. But, what I'm getting at is, if Jesus is our Savior, he will also be Lord. And he was very specific about what that entails: love.

As I said, love is not a work. It is a fruit of the Holy Ghost living in us. In order to receive the holy ghost we need to trust in him by grace through faith. You are already save in this point.

 

[Clare73]

If that was the case, Abraham has something to boast infront of the Father. We are save apart of the works of the law. Romans 4:3-4.

The obedience of his faith did not save him, his faith in the promise apart from his obedience of going to Haran and Canaan saved him, but his faith had obedience, or it wasn't true faith.

 

[public hermit]

Does an atheist have to do anything, to not believe in God for Eternal Life.

I get the point your making. And, if faith were simply a matter of propositional belief, then I would agree.

It would be like Jesus saying to Matthew, "Follow me," and Matthew replies, "I believe in you Jesus, but I can't follow you." Is that faith or mere belief? I say the latter.

The demons "believe." In other words, they know the propositional truth, but it makes no difference in how they live. I believe Billie Holiday is the greatest jazz singer of all time, but it doesn't change me. It's a mere belief. Faith is not like that. Faith and obedience (however faulty) go hand in hand.

 

[GraceInChrist]

I get the point your making. And, if faith were simply a matter of propositional belief, then I would agree.

It would be like Jesus saying to Matthew, "Follow me," and Matthew replies, "I believe in you Jesus, but I can't follow you." Is that faith or mere belief? I say the latter.

The demons "believe." In other words, they know the propositional truth, but it makes no difference in how they live. I believe Billie Holiday is the greatest jazz singer of all time, but it doesn't change me. It's a mere belief. Faith is not like that. Faith and obedience (however faulty) go hand in hand.

Do you sin from time to time?, be honest with yourself. The obedience our lord deserves is imposible in our flesh. We need the miracle of glorification.

 

[Clare73]

Only in the spirit by the law of faith. By the flesh, no man can be justified. We need to wait our glorification. Just as Abraham had Isaac, if we doubt his promise and we may became bound by birth to Agar instead of Sarah.

Yes, true faith with its obedience is always by the Spirit.

 

[public hermit]

As I said, love is not a work. It is a fruit of the Holy Ghost living in us. In order to receive the holy ghost we need to trust in him by grace through faith. You are already save in this point.

I agree with you, but for some reason you don't agree with me, lol. I'm not saying love is a saving act of obedience, but a consequent act of obedience. Is that how you see it? Keep in mind, all fruits of the Spirit are acts of obedience. It's absurd to think a fruit of the Spirit would be an act of disobedience.

Perhaps you assume one doesn't have to try to be loving, gentle, kind, patient, and practice self-control? It just happens without effort? Is that what you mean?

 

[GraceInChrist]

The obedience of his faith did not save him, his faith in the promise apart from his obedience of going to Haran and Canaan saved him, but his faith had obedience, or it wasn't true faith.

No, his obedience did not justified him. It was his faith in the promise. Even if he was 100 years old, he never stop trusting he will have a child with Sarah.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

No one has ever been saved without true faith, which produces obedience.

I've already shown you that "obedience" is not what you think it means:

The verb in John 3:36 which is translated by the New American Standard Bible as he who does not obey is apeitheō. The basic dictionary definition of this verb is to disobey. However, when used in antithesis with believing (the first part of the verse reads, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life”), it simply means to disbelieve. The standard Greek lexicon, Bauer, Gingrich, and Danker, says simply, “Since, in the view of the early Christians, the supreme disobedience was a refusal to believe their gospel, apeitheō may be restricted in some passages to the meaning disbelieve, be an unbeliever” (p. 82). Or, to put it another way, when one hears the Gospel and is challenged to believe in Christ, but for whatever reason does not, he has in fact disobeyed the call to believe! The same word is used in this way in other passages such as Acts 14:2 and 1 Pet 2:7; 4:17 (see also Acts 5:32; 6:7).

The title of this article, “Obedience Is Necessary to Receive Eternal Life,” is not referring to an obedience of self-righteous good works, but rather to an obedience that is faith in the Gospel. The call of the Gospel is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:30-31;1 John 5:1).
Does Free Grace Theology Diminish the Gospel? – Grace Evangelical Society

While we cannot earn our salvation, we will receive greater rewards in the afterlife if we persevere in good works. Numerous passages of scripture suggest this:
What Does the Bible Say About Rewards In Heaven?

 

[public hermit]

Do you sin from time to time?, be honest with yourself. The obedience our lord deserves is imposible in our flesh. We need the miracle of glorification.

Sure, I do. To be honest, I have to work at being the lovable poster you have before you today. (kidding) Do I work at my salvation in order to earn it? No. But I know from experience that without effort on my part I will not grow much at all. Sanctification takes effort, all guided by the Spirit, of course. I don't see a different picture in the scriptures, either. Exhortation is a call to put forth effort.