The Error of Lordship Salvation?

[GraceInChrist]

"Through faith," which must be true faith or grace is not applied.

Faith means to trust, Abraham trusted God even when it seems impossible. His faith was accounted as righteousness. It has nothing to do with the works of the law and my flesh.

 

[public hermit]

The biggest question is. If we indeed obey him with our flesh. He died in vain.

Presumably, that's not possible, correct?

Why dance around the question? Can someone have Christ as Savior while not having Christ as Lord? If so, then questions about how that happens (prior or post grace) is irrelevant. One can be saved without living in such a way that indicates Christ is Lord. If not, then "Lordship" is necessary and the OP's point falls apart.

Can I simply believe that Jesus Christ is the truth. Is faith an intellectual assent? Or do I have to be in Jesus Christ, i.e. live in such a way that the truth of Christ is seen in me? Is faith a whole-life orientation?

 

[GraceInChrist]

Presumably, that's not possible, correct?

Why dance around the question? Can someone have Christ as Savior while not having Christ as Lord? If so, then questions about how that happens (prior or post grace) is irrelevant. One can be saved without living in such a way that indicates Christ is Lord. If not, then "Lordship" is necessary and the OP's point falls apart.

Can I simply believe that Jesus Christ is the truth. Is faith an intellectual assent? Or do I have to be in Jesus Christ, i.e. live in such a way that the truth of Christ is seen in me? Is faith a whole-life orientation?

Faith is to trust in Gods word and his promises of eternal life by grace. If we work, then it is no longer by grace but a debt. Our body is dead do to sin. Why do you seek to obey him through a dead body. Obey him looking foward your glorification. Our spirits are now free, soon our bodies will also be.

 

[Clare73]

Faith means to trust, Abraham trusted God even when it seems impossible. His faith was accounted as righteousness. It has nothing to do with the works of the law and my flesh.

Faith means to believe.

Romans 4:3 states: "Abraham believed God."

For believe and obey are the same word in Greek (peitho).

To believe is to obey, and to obey is to believe.

 

[GraceInChrist]

Faith means to believe.

And believe and obey are the same word in Greek (peitho).

To believe is to obey, and to obey is to believe.

So obey the gospel then. Are you save by grace or works?

Also, Abraham had no law when he was justify.

 

[public hermit]

Faith is to trust in Gods word and his promises of eternal life by grace. If we work, then it is no longer by grace but a debt. Our body is dead do to sin. Why do you seek to obey him through a dead body. Obey him looking foward your glorification. Our spirits are now free, soon our bodies will also be.

So, do you think one should at least try to obey? Or, can one just believe and not pay any mind to obedience?

 

[d taylor]

Can one have Jesus as Savior without having Jesus as Lord? The debate about whether obedience is grace securing or a response to grace is a second order issue. Would you say one can have Jesus as Savior and yet not have Jesus as Lord? Without a clear answer to that first order question, the other debate is pointless.

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A person can trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life and never know anything about making The Messiah Lord.

Making The Messiah Lord of your life is never stated as a condition for receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[GraceInChrist]

So, do you think one should at least try to obey? Or, can one just believe and not pay any mind to obedience?

My question to you is. From what is Christ saving us? From hell only, or our sinfull nature also? We are free from the law, now being guided by the Holy Ghost we know we are sons of God. This has nothing to do with works of law.

 

[GraceInChrist]

_
A person can trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life and never know anything about making The Messiah Lord.

Making The Messiah Lord of your life is never stated as a condition for receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life.

I agree, the only condition for salvation external of faith, is receiving the Holy Ghost.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Why is that a confusion? If I call Jesus "My Lord" and don't obey him, am I lying? Genuine question.

John 3:36 teaches this truth, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him” (NASV, emphasis mine)...

The verb in John 3:36 which is translated by the New American Standard Bible as he who does not obey is apeitheō. The basic dictionary definition of this verb is to disobey. However, when used in antithesis with believing (the first part of the verse reads, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life”), it simply means to disbelieve. The standard Greek lexicon, Bauer, Gingrich, and Danker, says simply, “Since, in the view of the early Christians, the supreme disobedience was a refusal to believe their gospel, apeitheō may be restricted in some passages to the meaning disbelieve, be an unbeliever” (p. 82). Or, to put it another way, when one hears the Gospel and is challenged to believe in Christ, but for whatever reason does not, he has in fact disobeyed the call to believe! The same word is used in this way in other passages such as Acts 14:2 and 1 Pet 2:7; 4:17 (see also Acts 5:32; 6:7).

The title of this article, “Obedience Is Necessary to Receive Eternal Life,” is not referring to an obedience of self-righteous good works, but rather to an obedience that is faith in the Gospel. The call of the Gospel is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:30-31;1 John 5:1).
Does Free Grace Theology Diminish the Gospel? – Grace Evangelical Society

The only obedience required to become saved is to "believe in the one He has sent." (John 6:29)

Any good works we perform in the Christian life are in gratitude for our salvation, not as a means of earning salvation. This is the difference between justification and sanctification, faith and discipleship.

 

[public hermit]

My question to you is. From what is Christ saving us? From hell only, or our sinfull nature also? We are free from the law, now being guided by the Holy Ghost we know we are sons of God. This has nothing to do with works of law.

Jesus commanded us to love as he loved us. Paul confirmed that faith works through love. The idea that faith and love, belief and obedience, can somehow be separated so that one can have faith but no obedience to the Lord's command seems nonsensical.

I'm not saying we won't fail at the obedience of faith which works through love. I'm certainly not going to deny the divine grace that enables our obedience. But, no, faith without works is dead because there's no love in it. What good is that?

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

So, do you think one should at least try to obey? Or, can one just believe and not pay any mind to obedience?

With Paul's expert foundation of "believing what you heard" being laid and that "being counted as righteousness", obedience is freely urged.

The second one tries to justify with works, grace is nullified. Paul lays it all out so clearly in his letters, only the stubborn miss it.

 

[GraceInChrist]

Jesus commanded us to love as he loved us. Paul confirmed that faith works through love. The idea that faith and love, belief and obedience, can somehow be separated so that one can have faith but no obedience to the Lord's command seems nonsensical.

I'm not saying we won't fail at the obedience of faith which works through love. I'm certainly not going to deny the divine grace that enables our obedience. But, no, faith without works is dead because there's no love in it. What good is that?

Love is not a work of the law. It is a fruit of the spirit.

When we love God, we trust him. We know he will save us. Can love bloom, in fear or distrust.

 

[d taylor]

My question to you is. From what is Christ saving us? From hell only, or our sinfull nature also? We are free from the law, now being guided by the Holy Ghost we know we are sons of God. This has nothing to do with works of law.

I know this was not addressed to me but, i am going to put a thought in.

I look at what God has done for humanity not so much as what He is saving us from.

But more of what God is offering humanity, and that is the offer of a free gift and that gift is the free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[public hermit]

The only obedience required to become saved is to "believe in the one He has sent." (John 6:29)

Any good works we perform in the Christian life are in gratitude for our salvation, not as a means of earning salvation. This is the difference between justification and sanctification, faith and discipleship.

I don't disagree. I would say if one has faith, good works will follow. They might be poor substitutes for the ideal, but they will happen or the faith is a mirage.

Faith is not mere belief, but trust in God's love so that one seeks to obey. We don't believe that Christ; we believe in Christ. It's the difference between knowing a fact and actually becoming something, I think.

 

[GraceInChrist]

I know this was not addressed to me but, i am going to put a thought in.

I look at what God has done for humanity not so much as what He is saving us from.

But more of what God is offering humanity, and that is the offer of a free gift and that gift is the free gift of Eternal Life.

You speak the truth. He saved me. I did nothing to deserve it. I know I will be glorified one day by his grace.

 

[Clare73]

So obey the gospel then. Are you save by grace or works?

By faith apart from the works of obedience which necessarily accompany true faith,
belief and obedience being the same Greek word (peitho).

Also, Abraham had no law when he was justify.

Didn't matter, he believed God, shown by his obedience in leaving Mesopotamia (Acts 7:2)
to go to Haran, and then leaving Haran to go to Canaan (Genesis 12:1-5).

 

[Humble_Disciple]

I would say if one has faith, good works will follow.

I agree with this, but I think we should be careful when judging our own fruits, because it might lead to doubt over our salvation, and we should be careful about judging the fruits of others, because their fruits might not be visible to others.

Every Christian will bear spiritual fruit. Somewhere, sometime, somehow. Otherwise that person is not a believer. Every born-again individual will be fruitful. Not to be fruitful is to be faithless, without faith, and therefore without salvation.

Having said that, some caveats are in order.

1. This does not mean that a believer will always be fruitful. Certainly we can admit that if there can be hours and days when a believer can be unfruitful, then why may there not also be months and even years when he can be in that same condition? Paul exhorted believers to engage in good works so they would not be unfruitful (Titus 3:14). Peter also exhorted believers to add the qualities of Christian character to their faith lest they be unfruitful (2 Peter 1:8). Obviously, both of those passages indicate that a true believer might be unfruitful. And the simple fact that both Paul and Peter exhort believers to be fruitful shows that believers are not always fruitful.

2. This does not mean that a certain person’s fruit will necessarily be outwardly evident. Even if I know the person and have some regular contact with him, I still may not see his fruit. Indeed, I might even have legitimate grounds for wondering if he is a believer because I have not seen fruit. His fruit may be very private or erratic, but the fact that I do not see it does not mean it is not there.

3. My understanding of what fruit is and therefore what I expect others to bear may be faulty and/or incomplete. It is all too easy to have a mental list of spiritual fruits and to conclude if someone does not produce what is on my list that he or she is not a believer. But the reality is that most lists that we humans devise are too short, too selective, too prejudiced, and often extrabiblical. God likely has a much more accurate and longer list than most of us do. Nevertheless, every Christian will bear fruit; otherwise he or she is not a true believer. In speaking about the Judgment Seat of Christ, Paul says unequivocally that every believer will have praise come to him from God (1 Corinthians 4:5).

So Great Salvation, Charles Ryrie, Victor Books, 1989, pp. 45-46
Bearing Fruit | Bible.org

 

[GraceInChrist]

I don't disagree. I would say if one has faith, good works will follow. They might be poor substitutes for the ideal, but they will happen or the faith is a mirage.

Faith is not mere belief, but trust in God's love so that one seeks to obey. We don't believe that Christ; we believe in Christ. It's the difference between knowing a fact and actually becoming something, I think.

That is not the problem, you shouldnt doubt he loves you do to your life style and works of the law. He does, and will always be for you. No matter how many times you fall, he is there cover your sins. We have the spirit of adoption, not one of fear.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

By faith apart from the works of obedience which necessarily accompany true faith,
belief and obedience being the same Greek word (peitho).

The verb in John 3:36 which is translated by the New American Standard Bible as he who does not obey is apeitheō. The basic dictionary definition of this verb is to disobey. However, when used in antithesis with believing (the first part of the verse reads, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life”), it simply means to disbelieve. The standard Greek lexicon, Bauer, Gingrich, and Danker, says simply, “Since, in the view of the early Christians, the supreme disobedience was a refusal to believe their gospel, apeitheō may be restricted in some passages to the meaning disbelieve, be an unbeliever” (p. 82). Or, to put it another way, when one hears the Gospel and is challenged to believe in Christ, but for whatever reason does not, he has in fact disobeyed the call to believe! The same word is used in this way in other passages such as Acts 14:2 and 1 Pet 2:7; 4:17 (see also Acts 5:32; 6:7).

The title of this article, “Obedience Is Necessary to Receive Eternal Life,” is not referring to an obedience of self-righteous good works, but rather to an obedience that is faith in the Gospel. The call of the Gospel is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:30-31;1 John 5:1).
Does Free Grace Theology Diminish the Gospel? – Grace Evangelical Society

The only obedience required to become saved is to "believe in the one He has sent." (John 6:29)