The End Times and the Law

[Eila]

I disagree with this assessement for the following reasons.

1. You can't cast out devils and be aligned with the devil, Christ Himself made that statement when the Pharasee's accused Him of casting out demons by the power of baalzeebub. The folks Christ is speaking of here were at one time Christians.

The people asked those questions, but you assume the answer is yes. The Bible never says that the people did those things. Jesus was clear when he said "I never knew you".

2.David was said to be a man of God and perfect in the way he served the Lord. This was said well after David killed a man so he could marry his wife. So the Lord wiped out his transgressions and looked at Davide as if they never happened. The same thing applies here for those who are saved and fall away into false teachings. The Lord will say I never knew you just like your being saved never happened.

Did God forget David when he sinned? David did according to the law and was forgiven.

 

[Eila]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Exodus 20 - Study This Chapter[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 And God spoke all these words: 2 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 "You shall have no other gods before me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. 7 "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. 12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. 13 "You shall not murder. 14 "You shall not commit adultery. 15 "You shall not steal. 16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. 17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." 18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die." 20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Obviously, this is the ten commandments but if you take a good look at the context you will find something interesting. First off God says I am the one who brought you out of bondage , out of Egypt. IOW, God saved them, right? So we have Literal Salvation coupled with a law. So we see here where salvation and obedience goes hand in hand. Let's see if we can find another example of this in the Bible. [/FONT]​

Deliverance from bondange happened before the initiation of the law. The law was the covenant.

Look at this interesting comparison:

50 days after the deliverance from the Red Sea the CIO entered into the covenant when God gave them the law on Sinai. The Isrealites were to obey the law.

50 days after the resurrection of Jesus the church entered a new covenant when God gave them the Holy Spirit. We are to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John 8:3-11[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Here we have a similar scenario where the Creator of the universe forgives and saves a woman caught in the act of adultery. However, He ends the encounter with her by telling her to go and leave her life of sin. IOW, I've forgiven you, I don't condemn you but go and obey the commandments now. The KJV says "Go and sin no more."[/FONT]​

We shouldn't sin. It was grace that Jesus offered to her even when she was guilty. She didn't do anything to deserve that grace. We should follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. He will not lead you into sin.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Salvation is always coupled with obedience. We live and exist by the grace of Christ and are not condemned by the law if we allow Christ to come into our hearts. Let's look at this set of texts.[/FONT]​

Obedience is a result of the work of God in us. It is not connected to salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works!

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Rom 8:1-4[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Here we clearly see the relationship of salvation and obedience. Christ has set us free from the condemnation of the law by becoming our sin offering and in the last bolded part of this set of texts we read where the Bible says when we are saved we do not live according to the sinful nature which means we are obeying by His power His laws. [/FONT]​

The last bolded part says we live according to the Spirit, not the law. The law condemns. Those who are in Christ are not condemned. The law cannot condemn those who are in Christ. We have been set free from the law of sin and death and now are partakers in the law of the Spirit of life. The Spirit guides us.

 

[Jimlarmore]

The people asked those questions, but you assume the answer is yes. The Bible never says that the people did those things. Jesus was clear when he said "I never knew you".

Matt 7:22 says, " Have we not prophecied in thy name and in thy name cast out devils, in thy name done many wonderful works?" These questions indicate that these people worked miracles in the name of Jesus Christ. By any standard they would be considered Christians. You are speculating when you say they were never Christians because when one looses their salvation all of the former good will not be remembered just as all of the wickedness will not be remembered if we are saved. That is the reason Christ said "I never knew you."

Did God forget David when he sinned? David did according to the law and was forgiven.

He never forgets any of us, however if David had not repented of his sin then Christ may have one day said He never knew David as well.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Eila]

Matt 7:22 says, " Have we not prophecied in thy name and in thy name cast out devils, in thy name done many wonderful works?" These questions indicate that these people worked miracles in the name of Jesus Christ. By any standard they would be considered Christians. You are speculating when you say they were never Christians because when one looses their salvation all of the former good will not be remembered just as all of the wickedness will not be remembered if we are saved. That is the reason Christ said "I never knew you."


He never forgets any of us, however if David had not repented of his sin then Christ may have one day said He never knew David as well.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

It is speculation to say that the answer to the questions are yes and it is speculation to say that the answer to the questions are no. The Bible doesn't tell us the answer. But it does say that He never knew them.

So you are saying "never" means something other than never?

I never
New Testament Greek Definition:
3763 oudepote {oo-dep'-ot-eh}
from 3761 and 4218;; adv
AV - never 14, neither at any time 1, nothing at any time + 3856 1; 16
1) never

 

[Jimlarmore]

Deliverance from bondange happened before the initiation of the law. The law was the covenant.

Exactly, however, the point is salvation and obedience go hand in hand. The law never saved the people it never did but after they were saved God asked them to keep the law just as Christ asked the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more after He saved her from being stoned. He never condemned her but he asked her to be obedient to God's law.

50 days after the deliverance from the Red Sea the CIO entered into the covenant when God gave them the law on Sinai. The Isrealites were to obey the law.

50 days after the resurrection of Jesus the church entered a new covenant when God gave them the Holy Spirit. We are to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Which is to obey God's commandments also according to Rev 14:12. Modern Israel is actually held to a higher accountability to the law than ancient Israel was. We are held to the spirit of the law not just the letter of it.

We shouldn't sin. It was grace that Jesus offered to her even when she was guilty. She didn't do anything to deserve that grace. We should follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. He will not lead you into sin.

Grace and obedience to the law always go hand in hand. Christ does not save us to put us right back into sin again. It's like the story of the man caught speeding. The officer decides to extend grace and give him a warning but that grace doesn't do away with the man's obligation to keep the speed laws in the future. The grace the officer extends wouldn't even be necessary if the law didn't exist in the first place.

Obedience is a result of the work of God in us. It is not connected to salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works!

True but one follows the other because in James 2 the Bible tells us that faith without works is dead.

The last bolded part says we live according to the Spirit, not the law. The law condemns. Those who are in Christ are not condemned. The law cannot condemn those who are in Christ. We have been set free from the law of sin and death and now are partakers in the law of the Spirit of life. The Spirit guides us.

God never changes and the law of the spirit will not violate or make void/change the ten commandment law of God written by His finger in stone and spoken by His mouth.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Eila]

Which is to obey God's commandments also according to Rev 14:12. Modern Israel is actually held to a higher accountability to the law than ancient Israel was. We are held to the spirit of the law not just the letter of it.

I am not modern Israel. Israel is Israel, not the church.

The leading of the Spirit is not to obey the 10 commandments - but to follow the leading of the Spirit. The law is completed.

Galatians 5 "8But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law."

Romans 7 " But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life]."

You have to choose - follow the law or follow the Holy Spirit.

Grace and obedience to the law always go hand in hand. Christ does not save us to put us right back into sin again. It's like the story of the man caught speeding. The officer decides to extend grace and give him a warning but that grace doesn't do away with the man's obligation to keep the speed laws in the future. The grace the officer extends wouldn't even be necessary if the law didn't exist in the first place.

Obedience comes after grace. It has nothing to do with grace for grace is unmerited favor. Christ doesn't save us to put us right back in sin. He gives us the Holy Spirit who will convict us of sin. It is not about the law anymore.

True but one follows the other because in James 2 the Bible tells us that faith without works is dead.

The fruit of the Spirit will show up in the life of someone who is listening to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

God never changes and the law of the spirit will not violate or make void/change the ten commandment law of God written by His finger in stone and spoken by His mouth.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Then you should be wearing tassels on your clothing, making sure that you do not round the corners of your hair, and keeping every feast. God doesn't change, but laws do.

Read Acts 2 - that was not a small thing that happened that day. It was every bit as powerful as that day on the mountain. You can stick with the law on stone if you want, but you can have the Holy Spirit living in you instructing you in all things. The law on our heart is not the law on stone, but the Holy Spirit living in our heart.

 

[freeindeed2]

I am not modern Israel. Israel is Israel, not the church.

The leading of the Spirit is not to obey the 10 commandments - but to follow the leading of the Spirit. The law is completed.

Galatians 5 "8But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law."

Romans 7 " But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life]."

You have to choose - follow the law or follow the Holy Spirit.






Obedience comes after grace. It has nothing to do with grace for grace is unmerited favor. Christ doesn't save us to put us right back in sin. He gives us the Holy Spirit who will convict us of sin. It is not about the law anymore.




The fruit of the Spirit will show up in the life of someone who is listening to the leading of the Holy Spirit.



Then you should be wearing tassels on your clothing, making sure that you do not round the corners of your hair, and keeping every feast. God doesn't change, but laws do.

Read Acts 2 - that was not a small thing that happened that day. It was every bit as powerful as that day on the mountain. You can stick with the law on stone if you want, but you can have the Holy Spirit living in you instructing you in all things. The law on our heart is not the law on stone, but the Holy Spirit living in our heart.

That's right! AMEN!

 

[reddogs]

'Modern Israel'='Spritual Israel' and are those who love and follow God and His Son Jesus Christ........

 

[Eila]

'Modern Israel'='Spritual Israel' and are those who love and follow God and His Son Jesus Christ........

Can you provide scriptural support for the "="?

 

[reddogs]

Do you have something against Jews, as this is a basic concept?

 

[Eila]

Do you have something against Jews, as this is a basic concept?

Why would wanting scriptural support mean I have something against Jews? You said modern Israel = the church. Can you provide Scriptural support for that?

 

[reddogs]

You must have me confused with someone else, here is my quote:

"...'Modern Israel'='Spritual Israel' and are those who love and follow God and His Son Jesus Christ........"

 

[Eila]

You must have me confused with someone else, here is my quote:

"...'Modern Israel'='Spritual Israel' and are those who love and follow God and His Son Jesus Christ........"

I had assumed you believe spiritual Israel equals the church. So let me rephrase....can you provide scriptural support that modern Israel = Spiritual Israel?

 

[reddogs]

Again I say it is a basic concept, what do have against it, is it the "jewish" component?

Anyhow, I will study or look for some background on it if you need it.

 

[Eila]

Again I say it is a basic concept, what do have against it, is it the "jewish" component?

Anyhow, I will study or look for some background on it if you need it.

If it is a basic concept then couldn't you point me to the text that spells it out?

I don't have anything against Jews or Israel. I don't know why you think that.

 

[reddogs]

1. John 7:35
   Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?
   John 7:34-36 (in Context) John 7 (Whole Chapter)
2. Acts 13:42
   And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
3. Romans 2:10
   But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
   Romans 2:9-11 (in Context) Romans 2 (Whole Chapter)
4. Romans 3:9
   What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
   Romans 3:8-10 (in Context) Romans 3 (Whole Chapter)
5. Romans 3:29
   Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
   Romans 3:28-30 (in Context) Romans 3 (Whole Chapter)
6. Romans 9:24
   Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
   Romans 9:23-25 (in Context) Romans 9 (Whole Chapter)
7. 1 Corinthians 10:32
   Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
   1 Corinthians 10:31-33 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 10 (Whole Chapter)
8. 1 Corinthians 12:13
   For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[Eila]

1. John 7:35
   Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?
   John 7:34-36 (in Context) John 7 (Whole Chapter)
2. Acts 13:42
   And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
3. Romans 2:10
   But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
   Romans 2:9-11 (in Context) Romans 2 (Whole Chapter)
4. Romans 3:9
   What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
   Romans 3:8-10 (in Context) Romans 3 (Whole Chapter)
5. Romans 3:29
   Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
   Romans 3:28-30 (in Context) Romans 3 (Whole Chapter)
6. Romans 9:24
   Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
   Romans 9:23-25 (in Context) Romans 9 (Whole Chapter)
7. 1 Corinthians 10:32
   Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
   1 Corinthians 10:31-33 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 10 (Whole Chapter)
8. 1 Corinthians 12:13
   For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I'm not sure how these texts say that modern Israel = spiritual Israel?

Look at 1 Corinthians 10:32 that you quoted. Who is listed: Jews, Gentiles, and the church. There are Jews (Israelites), Gentiles, and the believers who make up the church.

 

[reddogs]

The Gentiles are not Jews but they followed God's truth as given in the Old Testament and the New Testament, thus they are not 'literal Isreal' but seen as "Spiritual Israel"...

 

[Eila]

The Gentiles are not Jews but they followed God's truth as given in the Old Testament and the New Testament, thus they are not 'literal Isreal' but seen as "Spiritual Israel"...

But you just quoted a text that listed the Jews, Gentiles, and the church.

If you believe in Jesus you are part of the church no matter what your nationality or race. The text you quoted shows that the Jews are not the church and that the Gentiles are not the church.

 

[freeindeed2]

But you just quoted a text that listed the Jews, Gentiles, and the church.

If you believe in Jesus you are part of the church no matter what your nationality or race. The text you quoted shows that the Jews are not the church and that the Gentiles are not the church.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28