The End Times and the Law

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freeindeed2

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I'm going to say it quite plainly, if you must continually confess your sins then you are no better off than the person who is still in bondage to sin. For you have only heaped back upon yourself the Law which Christ has told you, you are dead to. Life as you know it will still be about not sinning, it will still be focused in the Law and still be focused in a place that God is not pleased with. Likewise repentance that does not end in total surrender to God is not true repentance.
Thank you for that. That is exactly why many (not all!) SDA's have no (or little) assurance of salvation! Many have not figured out that it's about God's promises, and NOT their abilities/actions/observances/efforts. TOTAL surrender (something that comes from God - Holy Spirit - living in us) is not our 'work'. It's something we experience because of what God does in us.
 
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Eila

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I'm going to say it quite plainly, if you must continually confess your sins then you are no better off than the person who is still in bondage to sin. For you have only heaped back upon yourself the Law which Christ has told you, you are dead to. Life as you know it will still be about not sinning, it will still be focused in the Law and still be focused in a place that God is not pleased with. Likewise repentance that does not end in total surrender to God is not true repentance.

:amen:

Romans 6 "10For by the death He died, He died to sin [ending His relation to it] once for all; and the life that He lives, He is living to God [in unbroken fellowship with Him]. 11Even so consider yourselves also dead to sin and your relation to it broken, but alive to God [living in unbroken fellowship with Him] in Christ Jesus."
 
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reddogs

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I think what are trying to say is that if we are not under the dominion of sin, not under its power but under the Holy Spirit, then when we "disobey" it is unintentionly, and I agree and grace should suffice as we have not fallen back into sin, but have "stumbled on sin" or grieved the Holy Spirit a little.

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:Ephesians 4:30-31

And as they say, "confession is good for they soul", if we admit it was a sin we will recognize it as such and not unintentionly "stumble" on it.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


But we need to be careful we do not use the excuse that it was just a little disobedience as what Eve did or even Cain with his incorrect sacrifice may have seemed like a small disobedience, but it had a large consequence. I would say that ignoring ("stumbling on sin" versus outright transgression of the Law) what God tells us can also have consequences as we see in this small eposide with Moses.

Moses followed God, he was told to speak to the rock but in his frustration and anger with the people he struck the rock, it had the consequence he was not allow to go into the land of promise.

  1. Numbers 20:8
    Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
2And there was no water for the congregation: and they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron.

3And the people chode with Moses, and spake, saying, Would God that we had died when our brethren died before the LORD!
4And why have ye brought up the congregation of the LORD into this wilderness, that we and our cattle should die there?
5And wherefore have ye made us to come up out of Egypt, to bring us in unto this evil place? it is no place of seed, or of figs, or of vines, or of pomegranates; neither is there any water to drink.
6And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them.
7And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
8Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
9And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him.
10And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?
11And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. 12And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
 
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reddogs

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Now the danger is plain here, we say I can do a little disobedience and its really not "sin" so we let it slide. For example, we propose to and have a beautiful bride that we are going to marry, and we have picked out the ring, wedding date and everything.

Well, one day we bump into a old 'hot girlfriend', we can think of our new love and say "it would be wrong to sleep with her" and go our way, our we can use the excuse "well, I am not married yet so no harm in sleeping with her" and we go to her apartment to do it.

Have we sinned in our new brides eyes, yes, should we admit it was a sin and repent from it or should we let it slide and maybe bump into the old 'hot girlfriend' and do it again, maybe even after our pending marriage. Where do we admit (confess) it to be a sin, because if we dont we can definitely slide under the old 'hot girlfriend's power (dominion of sin) and continue it and she can point a accusing finger at any time if we try to get away from her, just as the devil does...........
 
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Eila

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I think what are trying to say is that if we are not under the dominion of sin, not under its power but under the Holy Spirit, then when we "disobey" it is unintentionly, and I agree and grace should suffice as we have not fallen back into sin, but have "stumbled on sin" or grieved the Holy Spirit a little.

All sin by Christians is intentional. It is no longer the nature of the Christian to sin. The Christian has to go against the direction of the Holy Spirit to sin.

Sin by non-Christians is unintentional. They do it without thinking. It comes naturally to them because they have a sin nature.
 
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Eila

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Now the danger is plain here, we say I can do a little disobedience and its really not "sin" so we let it slide. For example, we a propose to and have a beautiful bride that we are going to marry, and we have picked out the ring and everything.

Well, one day we bump into a old 'hot girlfriend', we can think of our new love and say "it would be wrong to sleep with her" and go our way, our we can use the excuse "well, I am not married yet so no harm in sleeping with her" and we go to her apartment to do it.

Have we sinned in our new brides eyes, yes, should we admit it was a sin and repent from it or let it slide and maybe bump into the old 'hot girlfriend' and do it again, maybe even after our pending marriage. Where do we declare (confess) it to be a sin, because if we dont we definitely will be under the old 'hot girlfriend's power (dominion of sin) as she can point a accusing finger at any time, just as the devil does...........

It was a sin even thinking about sleeping with the old girlfriend. If the analogy is comparing us to the man and the bride to Jesus then they should already be married. In that case the man would feel distant from his wife until he confesses and repents. But they are still married and the wife has not gone anywhere. And the wife will not divorce him for any reason.
 
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reddogs

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I have to disagree, a close married friend (who is a christian) had sex with his coworker, knowing it was adultery and that his wife would not see it as a little sin much less unintentionel. He saw the other young lady every day, and he went and got condoms at the store so it wasnt "accidental sex", it was planned, he did it, he is now suffering the "consequences" as his wife found the condoms.......


Anyone that says they are without sin or cannot sin are incorrectly taking the position of God as only the divine knows the heart and whether it truly is under power of the Holy Spirit....
 
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reddogs

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If we are christian, we are married in the spirit (in our heart and mind) and have faith we will get married when the bride comes, but until Jesus takes us away from sin at the second coming only He divinely knows if we are faithful and will truly be (married) with Him and taken to the kingdom...

If we are unfaithful and continue our sin and sleep continuosly with the old girlfriend, He will turn and say "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."......

Only a few have been faithful to the point of Enoch and "eloped" before the wedding.......
 
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Eila

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I have to disagree, a close married friend (who is a christian) had sex with his coworker, knowing it was adultery and that his wife would not see it as a little sin much less unintentionel. He saw the other young lady every day, and he went and got condoms at the store so it wasnt "accidental sex", it was planned, he did it, he is now suffering the "consequences" as his wife found the condoms.......

Exactly, this sin was intentional as are all sins by Christians.

If the bride is Christ the wife would not divorce the husband. The wife would still be the wife full of love for her husband. The book of Hosea shows God instructing Hosea to marry an adulterous woman. Why? To demonstrate His love for Israel. He loved Israel even when they turned their back on them. He didn't stop being their God either.
 
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Eila

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Anyone that says they are without sin or cannot sin are incorrectly taking the position of God as only the divine knows the heart and whether it truly is under power of the Holy Spirit....

Who here has said that? I sin. The sinlessness that resides with me is His sinlessness.
 
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reddogs

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Sorry, misread the original post, thought you said the christian was "unitentional"...

But then christians under the Holy Spirit are "capable of sin" as if I remember correctly you stated in a past previous post "they cannot sin".....have you changed your thinking on this?
 
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Eila

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If we are christian, we are married in the spirit (in our heart and mind) and have faith we will get married when the bride comes, but until Jesus takes us away from sin at the second coming only He divinely knows if we are faithful and will truly be (married) with Him and taken to the kingdom...

If we are unfaithful and continue our sin and sleep continuosly with the old girlfriend, He will turn and say "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."......

Only a few have been faithful to the point of Enoch and "eloped" before the wedding.......

"I never knew you" were people who were never born again. You can't be born again and never be known.

We are one with Him now. We died and our new life is hidden in Him. Our spirit is what was reborn. The body is clothing for our spirit. If you are married in the spirit now then what part of you is getting married later?

Romans 6 "4We were buried therefore with Him by the baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious [power] of the Father, so we too might [habitually] live and behave in newness of life. 5For if we have become one with Him by sharing a death like His, we shall also be [one with Him in sharing] His resurrection [by a new life lived for God]."
 
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Eila

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Sorry, misread the original post, thought you said the christian was "unitentional"...

But then christians under the Holy Spirit are "capable of sin" as if I remember correctly you stated in a past previous post "they cannot sin".....have you changed your thinking on this?

I don't remember my wording exactly, but I haven't changed my position. Christians sin. All sin by Christians is intentional. However, that sin has already been taken care of by the blood of Jesus. His righteousness and sinlessness reside in me. Although Christians may commit sin the sin is not counted against them. They cannot commit sin that counts against them regarding salvation. The Christian who sins may suffer natural consequences for his actions and not have many good works when he stands before the reward seat of Christ.

1 John 3:"5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him....9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Whoever is born again does not sin. If you had a different understanding of the spirit you may comprehend what I am saying. The spirit of a man is born again and made new. The spirit is made new and cannot be tainted with sin. The spirit is where the Holy Spirit dwells and the Holy Spirit cannot dwell with sin. We are abiding in Him. In Him there is no sin.

My actions may not reflect that sinlessness given to me. I may sin, but that sin does not affect that sinlessness - that born again nature. My spirit cannot fall into sin because it is based on Jesus' sinless life. It is perfected forever. The process of getting sin out of my actions is maturity. I may sin in my mind or emotions or actions, but not in my spirit. The Holy Spirit convicts me of sin and changes my mind, emotions, and actions.

I know you don't agree with what I said, but did that clear things up?
 
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reddogs

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Good, we are on the same line of thought that we can be tempted and sin, now we need to take the next step and see how we handle sin from this point on.. (I can feel another thread coming, but its 3:30 am here and my wife likes to hear me snore beside her......)

But I will leave you with this....

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 
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Eila

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Good, we are on the same line of thought that we can be tempted and sin, now we need to take the next step and see how we handle sin from this point on.. (I can feel another thread coming, but its 3:30 am here and my wife likes to hear me snore beside her......)

But I will leave you with this....

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Yes that is what happens when we are born again - we are cleansed and forgiven. Praise God:clap:

Have a good sleep Reddogs :sleep:
 
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Jimlarmore

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"I never knew you" were people who were never born again. You can't be born again and never be known.

I disagree with this assessement for the following reasons.

1. You can't cast out devils and be aligned with the devil, Christ Himself made that statement when the Pharasee's accused Him of casting out demons by the power of baalzeebub. The folks Christ is speaking of here were at one time Christians.

2.David was said to be a man of God and perfect in the way he served the Lord. This was said well after David killed a man so he could marry his wife. So the Lord wiped out his transgressions and looked at Davide as if they never happened. The same thing applies here for those who are saved and fall away into false teachings. The Lord will say I never knew you just like your being saved never happened.


God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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freeindeed2

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"I never knew you" were people who were never born again. You can't be born again and never be known.
Exactly! So many want to apply this to people they perceive 'fall away' (or leave Adventism), but if they were once saved, how could God say that he 'never knew them'?

Obviously these are people who have NEVER been born again.

Eila said:
We are one with Him now. We died and our new life is hidden in Him. Our spirit is what was reborn. The body is clothing for our spirit. If you are married in the spirit now then what part of you is getting married later?

Romans 6 "4We were buried therefore with Him by the baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious [power] of the Father, so we too might [habitually] live and behave in newness of life. 5For if we have become one with Him by sharing a death like His, we shall also be [one with Him in sharing] His resurrection [by a new life lived for God]."
Here's more:

"So then, dear friends, the point is this: The law no longer holds you in its power, because you died to its power when you died with Christ on the cross. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result [of being united with Christ], you can produce good fruit [fruit of the Spirit], that is, good deeds for God. When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced sinful deeds, resulting in death. But now we have been released from the law, for we died with Christ, and we are no longer captive to its power. Now we can really serve God, not in the old way by obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way, by the Spirit [Holy Spirit]. Rom 7:4-6

Clearly we are released from the law, which aroused evil in us, and we are UNITED with Christ. The old way of obeying the 'letter' is gone, and obedience to God is now through the Spirit, not law keeping [old covenant]. But so many are afraid of being led by the Spirit [they can't be fruit inspectors then!], so they run back to the old covenant/10 commandments...but all they'll find is death and condemnation.:doh: Not exactly what they had planned, but it's the reality of trying to be justified by keeping the law (which nobody keeps).
 
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Jimlarmore

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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Exodus 20 - Study This Chapter[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

1 And God spoke all these words: 2 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 "You shall have no other gods before me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. 7 "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. 12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. 13 "You shall not murder. 14 "You shall not commit adultery. 15 "You shall not steal. 16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. 17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." 18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die." 20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid.

Obviously, this is the ten commandments but if you take a good look at the context you will find something interesting. First off God says I am the one who brought you out of bondage , out of Egypt. IOW, God saved them, right? So we have Literal Salvation coupled with a law. So we see here where salvation and obedience goes hand in hand. Let's see if we can find another example of this in the Bible.

John 8:3-11

3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Here we have a similar scenario where the Creator of the universe forgives and saves a woman caught in the act of adultery. However, He ends the encounter with her by telling her to go and leave her life of sin. IOW, I've forgiven you, I don't condemn you but go and obey the commandments now. The KJV says "Go and sin no more."

Salvation is always coupled with obedience. We live and exist by the grace of Christ and are not condemned by the law if we allow Christ to come into our hearts. Let's look at this set of texts.

Rom 8:1-4

1. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Here we clearly see the relationship of salvation and obedience. Christ has set us free from the condemnation of the law by becoming our sin offering and in the last bolded part of this set of texts we read where the Bible says when we are saved we do not live according to the sinful nature which means we are obeying by His power His laws.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
[/FONT]
 
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freeindeed2

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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Exodus 20 - Study This Chapter[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 And God spoke all these words: 2 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 "You shall have no other gods before me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. 7 "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. 12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. 13 "You shall not murder. 14 "You shall not commit adultery. 15 "You shall not steal. 16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. 17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." 18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die." 20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Obviously, this is the ten commandments but if you take a good look at the context you will find something interesting. First off God says I am the one who brought you out of bondage , out of Egypt. IOW, God saved them, right? So we have Literal Salvation coupled with a law. So we see here where salvation and obedience goes hand in hand. Let's see if we can find another example of this in the Bible. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John 8:3-11[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Here we have a similar scenario where the Creator of the universe forgives and saves a woman caught in the act of adultery. However, He ends the encounter with her by telling her to go and leave her life of sin. IOW, I've forgiven you, I don't condemn you but go and obey the commandments now. The KJV says "Go and sin no more."[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Salvation is always coupled with obedience. We live and exist by the grace of Christ and are not condemned by the law if we allow Christ to come into our hearts. Let's look at this set of texts.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Rom 8:1-4[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Here we clearly see the relationship of salvation and obedience. Christ has set us free from the condemnation of the law by becoming our sin offering and in the last bolded part of this set of texts we read where the Bible says when we are saved we do not live according to the sinful nature which means we are obeying by His power His laws. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]God Bless[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Jim Larmore[/FONT]
Interesting 'study'. I'm glad you used the initials IOW, because that's where you put it into your own words through the SDA interpretation in order to preserve and promote the Sabbath.

As far as obedience goes:

"But now we have been released from the law, for we died with Christ, and we are no longer captive to its power. Now we can really serve God, not in the old way by obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way, by the Spirit [HOLY SPIRIT]." Rom 7:6

Those who lift up the law, instead of Christ, have not been 'joined to another'. They are still tied to the law that condemns, or 'ministration of death'. The sad part is that they do NOT keep the law themselves. They promote what they do not keep because they don't know how to measure those who are kept by the Holy Spirit. Obedience to God comes from the Holy Spirit and it is NOT tied to the old covenant/10 commandments. Why can't you trust the Holy Spirit?
 
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