The End Times and the Law

[Eila]

So if I fall in 'love' with your wife and commit adultery, thats OK since their "There is no other law that we are bound to but to love...". No sin has been committed according to your wisdom of 'man'.

I dont think that is correct on any level......

Reddogs,

If you love your neighbor you won't commit adultery with his wife. If you love your neighbor you won't even lust after his wife.

This love that we are commanded is agape love - the God-kind of love, not the eros or philo love.

 

[Sleaker]

"So if I fall in 'love' with your wife and commit adultery, thats OK since their "There is no other law that we are bound to but to love...". No sin has been committed according to your wisdom of 'man'.

I dont think that is correct on any level......"

Ahh, but Love would not commit adultery against a neighbors wife, this is why it is the Fulfillment of the Law. When you say, 'fall in love' what you really mean is: You let yourself be decieved by your flesh (See --> Lust of the eyes, Lust of the flesh and Pride of life). For Love is not something you fall into, Love is action it's a verb, it's not something you feel. So this whole idea of 'falling in love' is quite honestly lust with a little bow on it to make it appealing.

 

[Cribstyl]

,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[reddogs]

That is why I say, you cannot trust the "wisdom of man" as it can lead you astray, God's Law is from His wisdom and it leads us in the right way. I've seen many christians doing a "Fulfillment of the Law" and falling, (Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, etc....) because they are not following what God has set forth, just a tag line that means nothing without God's definition of sin. You have to be careful of 'empty words' that hide sin and iniqiuty and allow the Evil one to lead you astray...........

 

[Sleaker]

reddogs:

What about this verse?

[bible]Romans 7:1-8[/bible]

 

[Sleaker]

Sorry, just a little sidenote again, I'm not suggesting that the Law is bad, or wrong. Or that it's bad to still try and keep it. I'm just saying that we are no longer bound to the Law, but rather that we have been given a new Law of love which requires much more than Abstinence from a certain thing. The new law requires us to give our whole lives over to Christ, and in all reality is completely impossible to live in without the Spirit.

 

[Cribstyl]

.....

 

[reddogs]

You are getting there, the new Law of love lets Christ grace, the Holy Spirit do the work, the problem is every "Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker" in town wants to say they have the new Law of love and still do every sin possible.....

So the 'new Law of Love' rests on Gods Law of love as they are one and the same and still has the same claims until you are free from sin. When you can "walk" in harmony with God as Enoch did then you have no issue with the law.

 

[Sleaker]

mm, no no. I have no issue with the Law because I have been given grace. I'm not bound to it as Romans 7 so clearly illustrates. Just because I don't follow God's law 100% of the time does not mean I am any less a son of God. But the reality is that since I am saved it is completely possible for me to never sin again, and for that matter it is completely possible for anyone to never sin again once they come to Christ.

As far as Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker, Paul in Romans also clearly states "Shall we then go on sinning so that grace may abound much more? No!" This kind of thinking only leads to ruin and shows that you truly don't know Christ or his ways. I think the problem you are addressing is what Bonhoeffer refers to as Cheap grace, and how the church has lived too long just doling out grace to anyone saying, oh you're free from sin, without actually understanding that grace is meaningless without mercy first. To come to Christ one must repent, that is not 'confess sins', but rather Total Surrender to God. As John preached in the Gospels, "be baptised for the remission of sins." So it's surrender your life to God, and be baptized for the removal of your sins.

 

[reddogs]

Yes, you can put it that way as "cheap grace", which is a false spirit giving a lie to what Christ gives us. "Cheap grace", which says you dont have to confess (admit what the law has shown you as sin) and repent from sin and can hold on to it.

Matthew 3:6
And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mark 1:5
And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The law helps you to identify what is sin so you can confess it and be forgiven and be cleansed, but the devil can still cause us to fall as he did Adam, and that is what you have to recognize or you fall into the other of the devil's traps "once saved always saved..."

 

[Jon0388g]

Sorry, just a little sidenote again, I'm not suggesting that the Law is bad, or wrong. Or that it's bad to still try and keep it. I'm just saying that we are no longer bound to the Law, but rather that we have been given a new Law of love which requires much more than Abstinence from a certain thing. The new law requires us to give our whole lives over to Christ, and in all reality is completely impossible to live in without the Spirit.

Amen.

Jon

 

[freeindeed2]

Sorry, just a little sidenote again, I'm not suggesting that the Law is bad, or wrong. Or that it's bad to still try and keep it. I'm just saying that we are no longer bound to the Law, but rather that we have been given a new Law of love which requires much more than Abstinence from a certain thing. The new law requires us to give our whole lives over to Christ, and in all reality is completely impossible to live in without the Spirit.

Absolutely! It's a 'higher' law than the 'schoolmaster 10' that were given to Israel.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Absolutely! It's a 'higher' law than the 'schoolmaster 10' that were given to Israel.

There is no "school master 10" aspect to God's law of liberty. The first four involve our devotion to God and the last six involve the way we are to relate to our fellow man. As a matter of fact the ten commandments reflect the very love of Christ Himself and we can see Christ in this royal law. It's true that we are obligated to a life that goes beyond the ten but the ten are a standard and frame work for all of the other and are seated in the love of God. God is love and these laws are a reflection of Him.


God Bles
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

There is no "school master 10" aspect to God's law of liberty. The first four involve our devotion to God and the last six involve the way we are to relate to our fellow man.

Actually, I agree to an extent. It was a 'schoolmaster 613' laws. But breaking one of the 10 was breaking the old covenant, and we are no longer under the old covenant/10 commandments/613 laws. We are no longer under the 'schoolmaster'.

As a matter of fact the ten commandments reflect the very love of Christ Himself and we can see Christ in this royal law.

The 'royal law' is not the old covenant/10 commandments/613 laws.

It's true that we are obligated to a life that goes beyond the ten but the ten are a standard and frame work for all of the other and are seated in the love of God. God is love and these laws are a reflection of Him.

And they were given only to Israel at Mt. Sinai. Being under them is not being 'joined with Christ', but rather being a child of the bondwoman (NOT the freewoman). That's why we see children of the bondwoman lifting up the law that condemns rather than Christ who is life.

 

[Sleaker]

The law helps you to identify what is sin so you can confess it and be forgiven and be cleansed, but the devil can still cause us to fall as he did Adam, and that is what you have to recognize or you fall into the other of the devil's traps "once saved always saved..."

I don't know about you, but I think there is a small but significant difference between sin and disobedience. Sin might be typified by transgression of the Law. Whereas disobedience might be typified as ignoring God's voice.

See in the first instance, with sin and the Law. If a person who does not know Christ sees the Law they are bound to it, and to them it is death. No matter what. Once they transgress it even a tiny bit they are damned to die.
but If the person in Christ sees the Law, they are not bound to it since their old self already died in Christ. It's not a follow it or die matter. Why? Because Christ has already died for that person. He took away their death and asked for Obedience to a new Law which fulfills the old. Which is: Love God and Love your neighbor.

Now disobedience works differently than the Law and sin. Because of Grace there is a time where God will keep calling back saying stop disobeying, stop going back to the old self. And it is through this learning that we call ourselves on the "Christian Path" or the road. Can I obey all the time? Yes, Do I? No, but does God immediately reject me the moment I disobey him once? not at all!
But if I was still bound to the Law this would be the case. Disobedience is shown not through the Law but through the Voice of God. If God tells you to do something through the spirit and you don't do it you have just disobeyed God. You can't obey God's voice if you haven't been saved from your sin, because if you have Sin, then you are bound to it. But once you are washed of your sin there is no need to go back and wash again. Didn't Christ die for all your sins past present and future on the cross? Don't we understand that when we believe on Christ? Or have we watered Christ's power down to only the past sins when we accept him as Lord?

 

[Scotishfury09]

Disobedience is separation from God, sin is separation from God. Disobedience is a sin.

 

[Sleaker]

what I mean is there is a difference in how God deals with them between the two people groups.

 

[Sleaker]

sorry for that little distinction. I think it's just a bit of a distinction I make in my mind, and generally I think through my writing.. So this is my line of thought if you will bear with me one moment:
non-Christians are bound to sin, they only know sin. They can't obey God and thus because they can't obey God are dead in their sin. I wouldn't say they are disobeying either because they have no choice but to be bound in the sin. It's all they know.

But the Christian has the choice, because they have seen God and have had the sin wiped away. They have a choice to now obey or disobey.

I guess I just see a distinction between the two in my mind, maybe it doesn't exist at all.

 

[freeindeed2]

But once you are washed of your sin there is no need to go back and wash again. Didn't Christ die for all your sins past present and future on the cross? Don't we understand that when we believe on Christ? Or have we watered Christ's power down to only the past sins when we accept him as Lord?

This is where SDA's differ. They believe that their past and present sins have been 'covered', but that each 'future' sin must be confessed as it occurs or they will be lost. It really doesn't allow for assurance of salvation except that they don't miss confessing and repenting of each individual sin on a daily basis.

I asked the question once that if I died in my sleep not having confessed one 'sin' that was committed that day would I be lost? The answer was an ABSOLUTE AFFIRMATIVE YES! I STRONGLY disagree, but that's the SDA view.

 

[Sleaker]

I'm going to say it quite plainly, if you must continually confess your sins then you are no better off than the person who is still in bondage to sin. For you have only heaped back upon yourself the Law which Christ has told you, you are dead to. Life as you know it will still be about not sinning, it will still be focused in the Law and still be focused in a place that God is not pleased with. Likewise repentance that does not end in total surrender to God is not true repentance.