The End of Gun Control

[RestoreTheJoy]

I think the fact that the vast majority of gun owners have no issues.

Of course not. Almost every home has had guns throughout the history of certainly the U.S. since pioneer days. No one was shooting anyone or shooting up any schools.

The problem lies elsewhere but we don't want to look too deeply. It's too easy to target someone else instead of look at how we have failed the kids as a society.

 

[expos4ever]

To hit the user’s intended target.

Precisely. And this is why the car/spoon/bat/knife analogy is ill-conceived. All these things have useful, beneficial functions that clearly outweigh the downside.

Not so for the gun.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

As usual, your evasion is seasoned with light humour, parhaps in hopes that the evasion will slip by unnoticed.

Again: no one here is denying that cars and spoons can be used to kill. But you cannot possibly not know this is not the point. Cars and spoons have useful primary purposes whose benefits outweigh the risks.

What is the primary purpose of a gun?

Well, I'm told in my area that the primary purpose is for deer hunting. I'm sure a few would say target shooting rather than shooting deer.

 

[Phil 1:21]

To hit the user’s intended target.

Ducks being one of my favorite.

 

[expos4ever]

Well, I'm told in my area that the primary purpose is for deer hunting. I'm sure a few would say target shooting rather than shooting deer.

Clearly, the overwhelming majority of people buy guns for purposes other than hunting.

 

[Darkhorse]

True, most people are not self-destructive. But the fact remains: what reputable data we do have shows that a gun in the house increases your risk of death by gun.

"Reputable data" from liberal-biased sources (Johns Hopkins, CDC, the Wright-Rossi survey, etc.).
Not worth much.

I have some reliable data of my own: raising 2 kids while seldom being more than a foot or two from a loaded gun. They couldn't access it, but I could.

Careful planning, careful routines, no problems.

 

[Hammster]

Precisely. And this is why the car/spoon/bat/knife analogy is ill-conceived. All these things have useful, beneficial functions that clearly outweigh the downside.

Not so for the gun.

I am glad you agree. The intended use of a gun isn’t shooting sprees, or suicide or accidental deaths of family members. But unfortunately, those things happen. The same can be said of cars. They get folks where they need to go. But some folks drive intoxicated. Or drive into a crowd. But just because some folks use cars irresponsibly (more so then gun owners) doesn’t mean that cars should be banned. And neither should guns.

 

[expos4ever]

"Reputable data" from liberal-biased sources (Johns Hopkins, CDC, the Wright-Rossi survey, etc.).
Not worth much.

I have some reliable data of my own: raising 2 kids while seldom being more than a foot or two from a loaded gun. They couldn't access it, but I could.

Careful planning, careful routines, no problems.

Faced with research findings from reputable sources, you have no choice but to dismiss them out of hand.

How convenient.

 

[Phil 1:21]

"Reputable data" from liberal-biased sources (Johns Hopkins, CDC, the Wright-Rossi survey, etc.).
Not worth much.

I have some reliable data of my own: raising 2 kids while seldom being more than a foot or two from a loaded gun. They couldn't access it, but I could.

Careful planning, careful routines, no problems.

Right there with you, brother.

 

[expos4ever]

I am glad you agree. The intended use of a gun isn’t shooting sprees, or suicide or accidental deaths of family members. But unfortunately, those things happen. The same can be said of cars. They get folks where they need to go. But some folks drive intoxicated. Or drive into a crowd. But just because some folks use cars irresponsibly (more so then gun owners) doesn’t mean that cars should be banned. And neither should guns.

Surely you must know the problem with this. The upside of the gun - self defence - is DEMONSTRABLY more than offset by the risk it will be used against you.

This is equally obviously not the case with cars.

 

[expos4ever]

Right there with you, brother.

Predictable - what choice do have when reputable sources challenge your worldview? You simply dismiss the source with no supporting arguments as to why the source should be discredited.

 

[Hammster]

Surely you must know the problem with this. The upside of the gun - self defence - is DEMONSTRABLY more than offset by the risk it will be used against you.

This is equally obviously not the case with cars.

Obviously? Do you know how many car accidents I see every day?

 

[Phil 1:21]

Surely you must know the problem with this. The upside of the gun - self defence - is DEMONSTRABLY more than offset by the risk it will be used against you.

This is equally obviously not the case with cars.

We all must have missed where you posted statistics comparing incidents where someone uses a gun for self defense verses incidents where that gun is taken away from the owner and used against them.

Predictable - what choice do have when reputable sources challenge your worldview? You simply dismiss the source with no supporting arguments as to why the source should be discredited.

You haven't actually posted any. Am I going to have to remind you of that "Thou shall not bear false witness..." thing again?

("Facts" are more fun when they're not made up.)

 

[Darkhorse]

I'm curious,

if you can't use data, facts, and math when making your decisions and arriving at "the truth"...

pray tell, what do you use?

Tea leaves?

Bone casting?

The best data and facts for young people come from their elders.

My mom raised her first 3 kids alone after leaving her drunken, violent, unfaithful husband. She worked as a nurse in Dallas in the 1940s, and the climate was not friendly for unmarried women. For a while, an insane patient made regular visits to her house, hoping to catch her outside. They never broke in, but...you never know what they will do. The nut was always gone when the police arrived.

This is just one example. There are others.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

We actually have 3 rifles and 2 handguns in the house.

We don't tell people what we have waiting up top the mountain.
M-Bob

 

[Darkhorse]

If we had a time machine and could visit the homes of "gun accidents" the day before said accident, I guarantee you that the vast majority of those homes would consider themselves "gun safe" and the owners would consider themselves "responsible" gun owners.

Again, I'll refer to my mom's experience:

Before she was born, one of her brothers playfully grabbed the rifle her dad kept by the door, pointed it at another brother, and pulled the trigger.

The gun was loaded and the brother was dead.

Naturally, teaching her kids about gun safety was of paramount importance to her. She kept guns away from her small children, but taught them how to shoot safely when they were older. We all paid attention to her, and also learned about the uncle we never knew.

Parents sometimes do stupid things, and children sometimes die from them. Guns or no guns.

 

[Mayzoo]

Precisely. And this is why the car/spoon/bat/knife analogy is ill-conceived. All these things have useful, beneficial functions that clearly outweigh the downside.

Not so for the gun.

I have used a gun to kill venomous snakes that are on my property and are a threat to either my livestock or family. Recently we had mountain lions on our property very near our livestock. Observation and time resolved that issue without use of a weapon. Neither observation nor time resolves a snake issue.

There are no "authorities" who assist with these issues. I did call the presiding "authority" for the first venomous snake in my garage issue and their only advice to me was to go inside and lock the door. No, they do not provide any assistance for snakes or as it turned out mountain lions.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I did call the presiding "authority" for the first venomous snake in my garage issue and their only advice to me was to go inside and lock the door.

It's important to lock the door when hiding from a snake.

 

[Mayzoo]

It's important to lock the door when hiding from a snake.

That is what I thought....I laughed the whole time I relayed the message to hubby.

I hope I always remember that one, since it always gives me a chuckle when I relay to others if the snake could open a door that was not locked, I was in more serious trouble than I originally thought !!!

They did not provide assistance, but they sure provided comic relief!!!!

 

[Mountainmike]

I think the fact that the vast majority of gun owners have no issues.

Which fails to answer the question.
The question was - What evidence is there the self defence benefit out weights the risk

When the benefit - self defence successes are almost unknown. Systematic attempts to find those treated for being shot ( a reportable treatment) come up almost empty handed, the stats on use of gun defence in recorded crime hover around 1? percent only, so gun defence apperas ineffective.

The collateral damage and risk is gun deaths that have same order of frequency to breast cancer deaths and vehicle fatalities - i.e. unnacceptable.

The fact that most dont have problems is the same red herring as saying that overwhelming majority of smokers don't get lung cancer. It doesn't justify smoking, or make the lung cancer deaths acceptable. Difference is - cancer is an inevitable fact of life - gun ownership is a choice, vociferously defended.