The duration of hell and its purpose

[ozso]

I figured what Jews believe about hell would probably best explained by asking a rabbi. And of course thanks to the wonder of youtube, one can listen to several rabbis explaining the concept of hell in Judaism. I always like to start out small and then expand. So lesson one for me is here in this less than five minute video. Warning to infernalists, you're not going to like this. This explanation is provided by Rabbi Moshe Zeldman.

 

[eleos1954]

God is unwilling any perish, but all come to repentance. God will destroy wickedness, and evil while restoring the person.

Do you believe God can heal the blind?

Not all come will come to repentance.

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Genesis 6:7

So the LORD said, "I will annihilate these human beings whom I've created from the earth, including people, animals, crawling things, and flying creatures, because I'm grieving that I made them."

so in the days of Noah, so it will be in the end

2 Peter 3:7

But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

destruction - annihilation

 

[Der Alte]

I figured what Jews believe about hell would probably best explained by asking a rabbi. And of course thanks to the wonder of youtube, one can listen to several rabbis explaining the concept of hell in Judaism. I always like to start out small and then expand. So lesson one for me is here in this less than five minute video. Warning to infernalists, you're not going to like this. This explanation is provided by Rabbi Moshe Zeldman.
***Media Omitted*

Nothing to like nor dislike. Actually it is off topic and totally irrelevant. What modern day Jews or any other religious group believes about hell is irrelevant. What is relevant is what did the Jews believe about hell before and during the time of Jesus and how long did it last.

 

[Der Alte]

Not all come will come to repentance.
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Genesis 6:7
So the LORD said, "I will annihilate these human beings whom I've created from the earth, including people, animals, crawling things, and flying creatures, because I'm grieving that I made them."
so in the days of Noah, so it will be in the end
2 Peter 3:7
But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
destruction - annihilation

But, wait a minute none of this says that God will save all mankind righteous and unrighteous alike even after death.

 

[ozso]

Nothing to like nor dislike. Actually it is off topic and totally irrelevant. What modern day Jews or any other religious group believes about hell is irrelevant.

The topic of this thread is the purpose and duration of hell. Rabbi Zeldman provided info regarding the duration and purpose of hell according to Judaism.

What is relevant is what did the Jews believe about hell before and during the time of Jesus and how long did it last.

That's your thing, not the OP's.

 

[Der Alte]

The subject is the purpose and duration of hell. Rabbi Zeldman provided info regarding the the duration and purpose of hell according to Judaism.

What Judaism believes about anything is not relevant in this forum. You might want to discuss this topic in the Messianic Jewish forum. Have a nice day.

 

[ozso]

What Judaism believes about anything is not relevant in this forum. You might want to discuss this topic in the Messianic Jewish forum. Have a nice day.

I think you're just upset because it proves you wrong. Unless it went from no eternal torment in the OT, to belief in eternal torment, and then back to no eternal torment. You have yet to provide the missing link witch states unequivocally that in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment.

 

[Jipsah]

It seems pretty clear that the Scriptures calls it everlasting, just as it does for heaven.

"New heaven and new earth", right? New hell, as well?

 

[Eloy Craft]

From the earliest days of the church, there have always been three views on what happens to those who die without knowing Christ...damnation, annihilation, and restoration.

Damnation views hell as retributive punishment and the duration is eternal without end.

Annihilation has an end at some point and destroys evil to ashes. Those of this view may expand further.

The restoration view teaches that hell is medicinal and temporal with an outcome of celebration, restored to their creator.

Explain your view and the duration and how you came to that conclusion.

I believe that if God reveals Himself fully to someone, and that someone rejects God, that is unforgivable simply because what more can God do?

 

[Jipsah]

1. Can you show me a passage from the Bible that says that repentance is possible in the resurrection?

Can you show one that says it isn't?

Is there any verse that you can with a clear conscience tell a person who hates and rejects our Lord that he will still have the opportunity to repent after he dies?

I think the person who hates and reects out Lord is relative scarce. For the most part non-Christians are those who follow some ofhter religion, or none, and who give out Lord little or no thought. I always hold up one my Korean great grandfathers who they tell me rejected Christanity as just another strange foreign religion. He didn't hate our Lord, he gave HIm no thought at all.

Net-net is that I think that attributing malice toward God to all unbelievers is simply yet another attempt to make the idea of eternal conscious torment a little less barbarous. If we're roasting fairly nice folks because they were a bit hard-headed then it doesn't sound either loving or just, it just sounds vicious.

2. Do you believe Satan will be saved?

If God wills it so, yes.

3. Why do you believe that salvation is eternal and damnation not when both are referred to in the same way?

I believe that one means eternal life, and one means eterla death, in the sense of being made to have never existed, eternally erased from time and space. Bothe merciful and just. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life". Infernalists believe that the wages of sin is eternal life nder torture. Not what it says at all. "Oh, but "death" doesn't really mean death, it really means torture." Baloney.

4. Christ atoned for the sins of the whole world. But if someone should reject that grace, as many do, what hope is there?

How many actually reject grace, as simply not having embraced it? This is simply making ECT sound less barbarous again. "Oh, but they chose to be tormented!" Nobody actually believes that.

 

[Der Alte]

Can you show one that says it isn't?

Logical fallacy. Argument from silence. Can you prove that flying pink unicorns don't exist?

I think the person who hates and reects out Lord is relative scarce. For the most part non-Christians are those who follow some ofhter religion, or none, and who give out Lord little or no thought. I always hold up one my Korean great grandfathers who they tell me rejected Christanity as just another strange foreign religion. He didn't hate our Lord, he gave HIm no thought at all.
Net-net is that I think that attributing malice toward God to all unbelievers is simply yet another attempt to make the idea of eternal conscious torment a little less barbarous. If we're roasting fairly nice folks because they were a bit hard-headed then it doesn't sound either loving or just, it just sounds vicious.
If God wills it so, yes.
I believe that one means eternal life, and one means eterla death, in the sense of being made to have never existed, eternally erased from time and space. Bothe merciful and just. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life". Infernalists believe that the wages of sin is eternal life nder torture. Not what it says at all. "Oh, but "death" doesn't really mean death, it really means torture." Baloney.
How many actually reject grace, as simply not having embraced it? This is simply making ECT sound less barbarous again. "Oh, but they chose to be tormented!" Nobody actually believes that.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online;
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., first occurrence Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.
[Indent]EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love. [/indent]
Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4;18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not, cannot mean “correction."

 

[hedrick]

Logical fallacy. Argument from silence. Can you prove that flying pink unicorns don't exist?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online;
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., first occurrence Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.
[Indent]EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love. [/indent]
Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4;18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not, cannot mean “correction."

Knowing modern Greek doesn’t really help much in assessing what Jesus meant. Indeed for Greek Orthodox it may be a hindrance, in that it may encourage their confidence in identifying the Orthodox tradition with Jesus’ original meaning. Nor (referring to rather nice video posted above) does knowing modern Jewish attitudes.

Incidentally, while I’m not convinced that the video represents a general first century Jewish view, I think it is a good interpretation of how a Christian universalist might understand Jesus’ teachings about accountability.

 

[hedrick]

I’m rereading David Bentley Hart’s book. While I find that his rather breezy and polemical style somewhat reduces my confidence in his scholarship, he makes one rather interesting point. References to eternal punishment tend to occur in illustrations that have the flavor of parables or non literal sayings. (The entities being judged aren’t literally sheep and goats.) But universalist statements in Paul and others are flat doctrinal statements, with enough context to make their meanings clear.

 

[ozso]

Knowing modern Greek doesn’t really help much in assessing what Jesus meant. Indeed for Greek Orthodox it may be a hindrance, in that it may encourage their confidence in identifying the Orthodox tradition with Jesus’ original meaning. Nor (referring to rather nice video posted above) does knowing modern Jewish attitudes.

The significance of what Jews believe now regarding heaven hell and salvation, begs the question of what they believed during the time of Jesus. So far I haven't come across any mention of them having changed their minds somewhere along the way.

 

[hedrick]

The significance of what Jews believe now regarding heaven hell and salvation, begs the question of what they believed during the time of Jesus. So far I haven't come across any mention of them having changed their minds somewhere along the way.

There was enormous variation during the first century. I think modern Jews have tended to pick one or two possibilities. I also think the first century equivalent of the video understands the one year stay in Gehennon as punitive. That is, they shared the assumption that some modern Christian universalists seem to have, that punishment will eventually improve people. I don’t believe that this is typically true. Punishment can be used to control people, but am skeptical that it will ery often improve their character. The video thus reinterprets Gehennon as being less punitive in intent than it was in the first century, and ignores the fact that many teachers thought not everyone would get out of Gehennon. I agree with it, but I think it’s obviously a 21st century statement, not a first century one. I’m OK with that. I think over time we have come to understand implications of Jesus’ vision of Gid that were not obvious to all the NT writers.

 

[ozso]

I’m rereading David Bentley Hart’s book. While I find that his rather breezy and polemical style somewhat reduces my confidence in his scholarship, he makes one rather interesting point. References to eternal punishment tend to occur in illustrations that have the flavor of parables or non literal sayings. (The entities being judged aren’t literally sheep and goats.) But universalist statements in Paul and others are flat doctrinal statements, with enough context to make their meanings clear.

This has been said to cross into replacement theology and preterism, but when I first heard the notion that everything Jesus said about Gehenna and weeping and gnashing of teeth etc, all pertained to the final downfall of Israel, plus their exclusive inheritance being given to the Gentiles forever. Many Christians believe that Jews don't have salvation. So that's pretty catastrophic for them.

 

[Der Alte]

Knowing modern Greek doesn’t really help much in assessing what Jesus meant. Indeed for Greek Orthodox it may be a hindrance, in that it may encourage their confidence in identifying the Orthodox tradition with Jesus’ original meaning. Nor (referring to rather nice video posted above) does knowing modern Jewish attitudes.
Incidentally, while I’m not convinced that the video represents a general first century Jewish view, I think it is a good interpretation of how a Christian universalist might understand Jesus’ teachings about accountability.

I have confidence in most modern scholars. Just as modern English speaking scholars know the meaning of archaic words in the original KJV. For example, what is a wimple or a tyre? I feel that Greek scholars are equally knowledgeable about the changes between ancient and modern Greek.
And as I have shown in a post the meaning of a word can sometimes be determined by how it is used.

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen]I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal.” Unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” Thus in this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

 

[Der Alte]

The significance of what Jews believe now regarding heaven hell and salvation, begs the question of what they believed during the time of Jesus. So far I haven't come across any mention of them having changed their minds somewhere along the way.

Really, really? Are you serious? "So far I haven't come across any mention of them having changed their minds somewhere along the way."
Except for the quotes I have posted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Talmud and the Encyclopedia Judaica. And of course the teaching of Jesus.
When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12 [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16​

 

[hedrick]

I have confidence in most modern scholars. Just as modern English speaking scholars know the meaning of archaic words in the original KJV. For example, what is a wimple or a tyre? I feel that Greek scholars are equally knowledgeable about the changes between ancient and modern Greek.
And as I have shown in a post the meaning of a word can sometimes be determined by how it is used.

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen]I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal.” Unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” Thus in this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

I don’t contend that ainios means a finite period, though aion sometimes does. I think in the context of judgement it refers to things happening in the eschaton, one of the three meanings in TDNT. (The other two is things associated with God, and a weakened version of everlasting.) You’ve noted the parallel with eternal life. But I think that also means life in the eschaton. The main property of eternal life isn’t that it goes on forever, but that it is life with God, in God’s realm. I don’t think we know much about what that is, nor do we know whether it even has the same kind of linear time that we do here.

Hart points out that aionos probably translates Hebrew that would mean in the world to come. While life in the world to come is in some sense eternal (though note my reservations) punishment need not be.

 

[Davy]

Which out of the umpteen differing denominational doctrines has the proper understanding of God's word?

See my Post #160.

You're doing the same attitude that Wendykvw is playing, wrongly suggesting that no one can understand God's written Word.