The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell

[SkyWriting]

Anyways, in conclusion, I have discovered that the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place).

A soul in Spirit form does not experience "time".
"Time" is a gift from Our Father to delay our
transition from life to our well deserved death
becasue the wages of sin is death.
Any "eternal" reference is due to the timeless
nature of existence outside of the physical.
"Torment" in hell is due to our life lived not
in communion with the Father. It is social
torment rather than physical.

 

[Halbhh]

Some connections as they look to me -- to "perish" or be "destroyed" in the "lake of fire", and thus suffer the "second death" is an "everlasting punishment" in that it results in irreversible death for us human souls. As we are not already immortal, unless given immortality. In contrast, the devil and his fallen angels may well be already immortal, and it seems that they are. So they might continue in that 'fire', but human souls there would be destroyed, after 'weeping and gnashing of teeth'.

In other words, for human souls, "second death" is....likely to be just what it sounds like, death. Final, eternal, irreversible.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, the text says "everlasting." I believe that word means forever. But again, the text says "everlasting punishment" and the text does not say "everlasting punishing" or "everlasting torture in flames." Everlasting life is contrasted with the everlasting consequences or punishment of being destroyed or erased at some point in the Lake of Fire.

The Greek is clear and that is how scholars translated. The text does not have "punishing." There is no reference to material body, soul or spirit 'erased' or 'destroyed.' Jesus was quite clear in the passage. One would have to employ eisegesis to make Jesus say something different than stated.

The Lake of Fire is a temporary place. The fire is "everlasting" as long as the time of when the Lake of Fire exists. For does Philemon 1:15 suggest that the word "forever" be interpreted as "forever", too? Surely not. Unless of course you believe Onesimus is still alive with his master today or something. In other words, the word "forever" is "forever" as long as the time that they live here upon the Earth.

You use a temporal context to try to prove one which is eternal or out of our time and space. When God says of the afterlife 'eternal' He means it as it is out of the time and space of the being of the earth and universe. Biblical exegesis is not a Google word search as you are employing it.

Not at all. The text does not simply say what you think it does.

The text is quite clear. I did nothing to it. Here it is again:

Revelation 14: NKJV
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

So not believing in the proper view of hell is a salvation issue?
I don't believe that.
Actually, I believe it is wrong to hold to the ECT view because you cannot explain it on a moral level.
Anything that cannot explained as good and moral is not of God.

Not a salvation issue for those who are God's ekklesia. But for those exploring and listening to the ekklesia. Meaning, as I stated, if we get this punishment thing wrong, we could be deceiving souls.

How is it wrong to hold to an "ECT" view as that is what Christ preached in Matthew 25? I believe you may be applying morals to God which are not to be found in His revealed Holy Scriptures.

How wiping someone out of existence is good and moral needs more explaining than a just punishment for rejecting the Son of God.

My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,' says the Lord.'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.. Isaiah 55:8-9.

But Jesus should have used the word "punishing" and not "punishment" if he was talking about the wicked being tortured for all eternity (Which is pretty sadistic if you ask me).

You nor I or anyone else is God to determine His Justice. Again:
My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,' says the Lord.'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.. Isaiah 55:8-9.

For example: I can say that Rick and his family will receive an everlasting reward of 10,000 dollars for their good deed in finding a criminal and bringing him to justice; And yet the criminal received everlasting punishment in prison. This does not mean that the criminal is living in the prison for all time and being tortured there.

Once again you are using a temporal earthly context for what Christ Himself said was everlasting---After His judgment.

Again, the word "destruction" does not conjure up a picture of unending torture for me. The word "destruction" does not mean that. You have to allegorize that word in order to make it work for you. The meaning of "destroy" or "destruction" means it is no more. When I destroy something it is no longer the same thing that it was before. Everlasting destruction is exactly what happens. The wicked are destroyed for all eternity. They are no more because they are destroyed or annihilated.

Which can be argued from many passages except Matthew 25. Jesus made it quite clear and Matthew using the Greek made it clear by using the same Greek word as I pointed out previously.

However, there is absolutely no evidence from Holy Scriptures of a soul or spirit of a person being 'annihilated.' Some on judgment day will no doubt hope this is true.

Now a question. Why is the annihilation of a soul/spirit who rejected Christ important for you to spend so much time presenting a case for it?

 

[Greg Merrill]

I believe the Bible teaches "Dualistic Conditional Immortality."

This is the view as taught in the Bible that says that "hell" is a very real and literal place; But the wicked will perish (i.e. be erased from existence) in the Lake of Fire (After the Judgment).

As for a literal "hell": Well, I just do not believe there is any Scripture saying that the wicked will burn down there for thousands of years. Yes, the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man appears to suggest he was in the flame, but he also could have been referring to the heat of the flame in front of him (either nearby or in the great gulf between him and Abraham). In other words, when the rich-man said "I am tormented in this flame" (Luke 16:24) it would sort of be like if I said "I am tormented in this soldier." (referring to the flatulence from the soldier in front of me). For the first appearance of the English word "this" is used by Adam to refer to Eve who was in front of him (Genesis 2:23). Granted, I am not discounting the idea that the rich-man was burning in the actual flame itself, but I do not believe he was burning down there for thousands of years consciously being aware of that fact because God is fair and just in His Judgments.

47 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
(Luke 12:47-48).

Sir Arhur Conan Doyle once said,
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

Side Note:

Also, if the Rich-man really was engulfed in flames, then how was he able to carry on a normal conversation with Abraham? For today, if a man was tied to a log and then lowered into a roaring camp fire, he would be too busy screaming over his pain so as to carry on a normal conversation with anyone. For if the Rich-man was able to hear Abraham over his own screams of pain, he would be asking Abraham for tons of buckets of water and not a few drops to cool his tongue.

As for the Lake of Fire being a place of annihialation:

Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28). While I am not claiming to be an expert on Greek, scholars have said that the word "hell" here is taken from the Greek word "geenna" which is a reference to the Lake of Fire.

If that is the case, the point here is that Jesus can destroy both body AND THE SOUL (of a person) in the Lake of Fire. For Jesus destroying the soul and body is related to man destroying or killing the physical body here on this Earth. Are you saying that men do not fear physical death? Jesus is telling us not to fear the one who can destroy our physical body because if we trust in Him, we will never techincally die (i.e. Face the second death, i.e. the Lake of Fire); but we will have everlasting LIFE. In fact, the Lake of Fire is called the "Second Death" because it relates to the "First Death."

Anyways, Jesus is saying we should really fear Him because He has the true power of ending life or not. For if a believer's body dies, they will one day be resurrected and live with Jesus on the Eternal New Earth.


...

Rev 14:11 says "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever; and they have not rest day nor night,..." How do you explain that?

 

[Greg Merrill]

Some connections as they look to me -- to "perish" or be "destroyed" in the "lake of fire", and thus suffer the "second death" is an "everlasting punishment" in that it results in irreversible death for us human souls. As we are not already immortal, unless given immortality. In contrast, the devil and his fallen angels may well be already immortal, and it seems that they are. So they might continue in that 'fire', but human souls there would be destroyed, after 'weeping and gnashing of teeth'.

In other words, for human souls, "second death" is....likely to be just what it sounds like, death. Final, eternal, irreversible.

Just had a thought that involves semantics. You seem to be saying human souls are not immortal, therefore they will not continue to "live" in the lake of fire forever. "Immortal" means they can not die, and that they continue to live. By your thinking, they can not live in the lake of fire because they are not immortal. Yet in God's reckoning unbelievers were not alive to begin with. Sure they breathed, walked around, and even reproduced physically; but spiritually they were dead, spiritually "separated" from God. That is what they will continue to be forever in the Lake of fire, spiritually dead, separated from God, and as conscious of torment as they were when they were spiritually dead walking upon the earth. Rev 20:12 says "And I saw the DEAD...STAND before God..." They are dead spiritually, but standing, conscious before God, to hear their judgment pronounced. In verse 10 we read of Satan being caste into the Lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are (which had entered it a thousand years before and are still there when Satan joins them, having not been annihilated, as people want to believe will relieve sinners of eternal misery."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this matter. I also appreciate your kind response.

This story spoken of is a parable. Many such parables are used to help our 'human minds' understand close enough to just how bad or good things can be. Just like we say 'for example'. A Parable is an illustrated story that is cast alongside truth.

So to help anyone understand what that is let us use another parable with Luke 16's Rich man story in consideration.

I do not believe the story of the Rich-man and Lazarus is a parable. But even if it was a parable, it still would not change the truth of what we see described to us here. Jesus was not into telling make believe fantasies or telling us about untruthful things. Jesus's words are always true and not fictious in any way. Even the parables of Jesus are based upon truths that has happened at one point in time within man's entire history (By sheer probability alone) and or they are actual stories that had already happened from Jesus's perspective. For if Jesus were to talk about purple aliens on Mars that we know are not true, that would hurt his testimony in what He says as being actually true or not. So every word of Jesus is true. On top of that, the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man does not sound like a traditional parable. We have specific names of people and places of things.

Matthew 25:14-30 The talents story. If one understands this story, then they know that being a christian isn't just sitting around being a pew warmer and doing nothing else. For if they do not use their 'talents', they will be considered "wicked and slothful" and cast into "outer darkness" were there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

So if the talents story illustrates for us, the truth that a lazy servant of God will be cast away into hell, then it is only fair to surmise that the story of the rich man holds up as true that one would be conscious and suffering aka "weeping and gnashing". Do you sleep/stay unconscious and have weeping and gnashing?

Yeah, I am strongly against Eternal Security or Christians who think they can sin and still be saved on some level. Anyways, "Outer Darkness" is not the same place that is decribed for us by Jesus in his story of the Rich-man and Lazarus. "Outer Darkness" sounds more like a bottomless pit in where the devil will be cast into for a thousand years. Granted, I do not believe "Outer Darkness" is the same place as the bottomless pit. But I believe "Outer Darkness" is a unique place that "sinning Christians" will go to before the Judgment. It is in this place that they will weep and gnash their teeth.

I fail to see the sense in that which you said:

"For it is everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) --- Not everlasting punishing."

So let me post the Greek of eternal/everlasting again:

aiōnios "without end, never to cease, everlasting"

Now here is the Greek for punishment:

kolasis "correction, punishment, penalty"

I will now put these definitions together:

without end, never to cease, everlasting///correction, punishment, penalty

However, at the same time I wish for you to examine that very same word that is used for "life eternal". It is the same Greek word for everlasting.

With that word explaining both propositions of righteous life and wicked's punishment, it is only fair to say both are forever and ever. It is also fair to say that they both will be conscious.

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55). Judgment is like a form of punishment. So just because the Bible says a particular thing, does not always make that so. We have to compare Scripture with Scripture; And Scripture clearly also says that the wicked will be annihilated. See Post #4 to see a list of verses in regards to this.

You will have to provide scriptural evidence that one would not be aware of themselves being in hell since you already, in a way, admitted that one wouldn't be simply annihilated, but in a sleep. It is time to give scripture and not thought on where it says they are sleeping while in hell.

Again, just to be clear, I believe in a partial soul sleep. This means I believe that the wicked will go thru periods of consciousness and periods of unconciousness. How long the duration of these times is up to God of course (Who is fair and just in all He does).

Verses that are Suggestive of Sleeping After Death:

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." (Psalms 115:17).

"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" (Psalms 6:5).

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2).

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,..." (1 Corinthians 15:51).

"He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn." (Matthew 9:24).

"So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David." (1 Kings 2:10).

Verses on Being Conscious After Death:

2 Corinthians 5:8
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Philippians 1:21-23
21 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better."

"There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:44).
"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?" (1 Corinthians 2:11).
"And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." (Luke 1:47).
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

Isaiah 14:9
"Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations."

Psalms 139:8
"If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."

1 Peter 3:18-19
18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

Revelation 6:9-11
9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

2 Corinthians 5:1-2
1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:"

Luke 23:43
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

2 Samuel 12:23
"But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

Revelation 20:12-13
12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works"

Matthew 17:1-6
1 "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid."

Luke 16:19-31
19 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Isaiah 55:8-9. Who are we to question how He is to punish the wicked or save the righteous?

Isaiah 55:8-9 is in context to doing good. It is not talking about God asking His people to accept something that would make them question basic morality. God gave us a conscious and a moral compass to determine what things are truly good or not.

If someone were to use that statement of the soldier you made, I would tell them to correct there grammar. In other words, the sentence structure would be more like this "I am tormented BY this soldier." and not 'in'. Therefore your analogy is lost on me since the two sentence structures do not even compare.

The rich man WAS in the flame but you are not IN the soldier. I hope I am explaining this okay.

However you start to lose me again with, to me, back stepping:

After you said the rich man was not in the flame you then say toward the end that you don't doubt he is. I am confused by your contradictory statement and I apologize. Maybe I missed something.

You have to realize that the KJV was written in 1600's English and it influenced even many Modern Translations in what they say, as well. The KJV does not always use proper grammar that we use today.

But it is proper grammar for me to say, "I am tormented in this soldier." (and yet be in reference to them being in front of me). Ask any English teacher. For the same thing is said in Genesis 2:23.

Also, let us get the context of the Gen. 2:23 you mentioned.

" And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

Now when you read this in context with the other words surrounding "this" you are now painted with a different picture. Adam is referring to something that is for sure, but Adam is not saying she is inside him nor is Adam saying he is inside her.

Yes. That is my point.

Now look at this sentence structure:

"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

In context, with the words around "this", you can only and logically come to the conclusion that this man IS indeed inside of the flames. He is "in" the flame.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a total disconnect. I am saying that Adam was referring to Eve (who was in the nearby location of Adam's sight or view). Yet, you are saying that I was referring to Adam being inside Eve. That is not what I said. I said Adam was referring to Eve being in front of him by using the word "this." This proves that the word "this" does not necessarily always mean that a person is INSIDE something. Genesis 2:23 is the proof that proves that the word "this" in Luke 16:24 is not necessarily talking about about being INSIDE something.

Need another analogy and or another verse?
Okay. Well, "in this" in Luke 16:24 is sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me. Similar language like this can be found with the words "in these" in Isaiah 57:6.

In addition, let us look at the context to support that one is not merely unconscious/sleeping in Luke 16.

If a parable is an illustration that holds truth, then let us observe v 25

"But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

Would it also not be fair to assume by this context one is truly awake?

Again look at this verses 23, 24, and 30. The rich man is IN torment. He is awake. He is begging and pleading for mercy. Because the rich man was told that he will get no mercy, he then begs for his five brothers. Nowhere does this "illustrated story" that holds truth, indicate one is unconscious/sleeping or even ever was. In fact, by the context of v 25, it would actually support a life time of suffering.

To support Luke 16's rich man being awake see Luke 13 as well.

Luke 13:28

Again, I believe in a partial soul sleep. This means that the Story of the Richman and Lazarus in Luke 16 is a description of the wicked being awake or conscious.

Would it not be fair to surmise that this is "everlasting"?

No. There is nothing in Luke 16 that suggests never ending torture in fire. You have to bring up a verse to prove that point, my friend.

Weeping and gnashing = not possible unless you are conscious

Seeing Abraham = Not possible unless you are awake

Again, I believe that there the wicked will at times be awake or conscious after physical death, too.
The weeping and gnashing of teeth in "Outer Darkness" is for those believers who turned God's grace into a license for immorality.

Considering v 25, it would only be fair to say when you see v 28 "when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." That one is surely awake, there to stay, and suffering.

I believe the Judgment (Which is in two parts) takes place on the Eternal New Earth (After the Heavenly City of Jerusalem has already come down from out of Heaven). For the Scriptures emphasize the point about how nothing that defiles, or works abomination, or makes a lie will enter this city.

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21:27).

I believe after the the wicked will be judged (including sinning believers), the wicked will then look upon Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and they will be thrust out."

This Kingdom of God is in reference to the Eternal New Earth and the city of New Jerusalem that came down from out of Heaven. Nothing defiled will be allowed to enter the holy city. For the angels will remove the wicked (By God's order) so as to prevent that from happening.

I again would like to thank you for a civil conversation my friend. A real pleasure.

You are most welcome, my friend.
I pray that you will check out the verses in the beginning of this thread.
May God truly bless you.
And please be well.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Some connections as they look to me -- to "perish" or be "destroyed" in the "lake of fire", and thus suffer the "second death" is an "everlasting punishment" in that it results in irreversible death for us human souls. As we are not already immortal, unless given immortality. In contrast, the devil and his fallen angels may well be already immortal, and it seems that they are. So they might continue in that 'fire', but human souls there would be destroyed, after 'weeping and gnashing of teeth'.

In other words, for human souls, "second death" is....likely to be just what it sounds like, death. Final, eternal, irreversible.

I agree.

Eternal life is a person and not a super power.

1 Timothy 6:16 says Jesus alone has immortality. This is saying that Jesus alone is the one who can grant eternal life; And a person can only have this life by abiding in Him. For the Scriptures say, " he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life." (1 John 5:12). I have a hard time believing that Jesus will be abiding in the wicked for all eternity so as to give them life in order so that they may be tortured in flames for all eternity.

The Scriptures say that he that does not have the Son does not have life.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Rev 14:11 says "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever; and they have not rest day nor night,..." How do you explain that?

Just so that there is no confusion, I believe in a REAL place called "hell", and that it has REAL flames and that the wicked are conscious (or awake) at certain intervals of time there; However, I believe that after the Judgment, the Lake of Fire is a place of destruction or annihilation for the wicked.

Why?

Well, I believe God is into fair justice or punishment (Please see Luke 12:47-48). I believe it is possible that the wicked may be punished in the Lake of Fire (After the Judgment) for a certain amount of time in proportion to the type of sins or crimes they committed here upon this Earth. But I also believe that is possible that they could be destroyed right away, too. In any event, the end result of destruction of the wicked is the same. For the saints will witness the lifeless remains of the wicked on the Eternal New Earth (See Isaiah 66:22-24).

As for Isaiah 14:10-11:
Well, here is a good article on Isaiah 14:10-11.

Doesn't Revelation 14 tell us that people will be tormented forever?

First let's look at what the text actually says...Revelation 14:10-11 is about a specific group of people at "the end times." It is about people who take the mark of the beast during what many call The Great Tribulation. John tells us of the day they meet God–Judgment Day.

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: (Revelation 14:10-11)

It is very important to notice where they are. They are "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." This is obviously when they are standing before the Great White Throne of God on Judgment Day and cannot be hell. The parable that Jesus tells in Luke 19:27 teaches us that these ones will ultimately be slain, "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Notice, they are eventually slain in the presence of the King, but not before they are tormented by His holiness and their sinfulness. Additionally, this is the same exact word in Greek that Peter uses to talk about how Lot was vexed (tormented) in his soul while seeing the evil deeds done in his hometown. (2 Peter 2:8).

1. If then, the torment with fire, brimstone, and eternal smoke takes place in the presence of the Lamb and holy angels, then it also takes place in the presence of the believers as well (since we will be with the Lord by that time). Think about it. Could you be happy for all eternity witnessing the excruciating fire and torture of hundreds of millions of lost souls? And will they be forever in the presence of Jesus being tormented as the text says, they are "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."

2. But what about the word "forever"; doesn't the text say torment will go on forever? No. Read it very carefully. It clearly says "the smoke" will rise forever. Smoke rising forever is much different than torment going on forever. John is using the biblical expression of "smoke rising" to describe how people then remembered an important incident. Today we take pictures and video of our enemies being bombed and their city set on fire and play it over and over a hundred times, but back then the enemies of God were destroyed and it was over. There was no video to review over and over again back then. The preservation of smoke was the only way for them to remember the great event. Look how John speaks of Babylon's destruction, "And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up forever and ever." (Revelation 19:3) One day Babylon will be destroyed and even in heaven we will never forget God's destruction of that city. That is what is meant by smoke rising forever. The same thing happened to Sodom and Gomorrah, "And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace." (Genesis 19:28).

3. It is not proper hermeneutics to view the scripture in Revelation 14:10 apart from how the other biblical writers use it. And they do not use it of eternal torment. Again, look how Isaiah uses the exact same wording about the city of Edom being destroyed, "the smoke thereof shall go up forever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever." (Isaiah 34:10). Edom was destroyed and the smoke rising forever was meant as a remembrance statement. Obviously, there is no smoke today still rising from the location of Edom. It is figurative language denoting that God's work of their destruction will "never be forgotten."

Article Source:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
(Note: I believe in the Conditional View of the Lake of Fire within this Article. I do not hold to their view of soul sleep and or in their view of Lazarus and Richman).​

...

 

[Greg Merrill]

Just so that there is no confusion, I believe in a REAL place called "hell", and that it has REAL flames and that the wicked are conscious (or awake) at certain intervals of time there; However, I believe that after the Judgment, the Lake of Fire is a place of destruction or annihilation for the wicked.

I believe God is into fair justice or punishment (Please see Luke 12:47-48). I believe it is possible that the wicked may be punished in the Lake of Fire (After the Judgment) for a certain amount of time in proportion to the type of sins or crimes they committed here upon this Earth. But I also believe that is possible that they could be destroyed right away, too. In any event, the end result of destruction of the wicked is the same. For the saints will witness the lifeless remains of the wicked on the Eternal New Earth (See Isaiah 66:22-24).

Anyways, here is a good article on Isaiah 14:10.

Doesn't Revelation 14 tell us that people will be tormented forever?

First let's look at what the text actually says...Revelation 14:10-11 is about a specific group of people at "the end times." It is about people who take the mark of the beast during what many call The Great Tribulation. John tells us of the day they meet God–Judgment Day.

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: (Revelation 14:10-11)

It is very important to notice where they are. They are "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." This is obviously when they are standing before the Great White Throne of God on Judgment Day and cannot be hell. The parable that Jesus tells in Luke 19:27 teaches us that these ones will ultimately be slain, "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Notice, they are eventually slain in the presence of the King, but not before they are tormented by His holiness and their sinfulness. Additionally, this is the same exact word in Greek that Peter uses to talk about how Lot was vexed (tormented) in his soul while seeing the evil deeds done in his hometown. (2 Peter 2:8).

1. If then, the torment with fire, brimstone, and eternal smoke takes place in the presence of the Lamb and holy angels, then it also takes place in the presence of the believers as well (since we will be with the Lord by that time). Think about it. Could you be happy for all eternity witnessing the excruciating fire and torture of hundreds of millions of lost souls? And will they be forever in the presence of Jesus being tormented as the text says, they are "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."

2. But what about the word "forever"; doesn't the text say torment will go on forever? No. Read it very carefully. It clearly says "the smoke" will rise forever. Smoke rising forever is much different than torment going on forever. John is using the biblical expression of "smoke rising" to describe how people then remembered an important incident. Today we take pictures and video of our enemies being bombed and their city set on fire and play it over and over a hundred times, but back then the enemies of God were destroyed and it was over. There was no video to review over and over again back then. The preservation of smoke was the only way for them to remember the great event. Look how John speaks of Babylon's destruction, "And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up forever and ever." (Revelation 19:3) One day Babylon will be destroyed and even in heaven we will never forget God's destruction of that city. That is what is meant by smoke rising forever. The same thing happened to Sodom and Gomorrah, "And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace." (Genesis 19:28).

3. It is not proper hermeneutics to view the scripture in Revelation 14:10 apart from how the other biblical writers use it. And they do not use it of eternal torment. Again, look how Isaiah uses the exact same wording about the city of Edom being destroyed, "the smoke thereof shall go up forever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever." (Isaiah 34:10). Edom was destroyed and the smoke rising forever was meant as a remembrance statement. Obviously, there is no smoke today still rising from the location of Edom. It is figurative language denoting that God's work of their destruction will "never be forgotten."

Article Source:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
(Note: I believe in the Conditional View of the Lake of Fire within this Article. I do not hold to their view of soul sleep and or in their view of Lazarus and Richman).​

...

In regards to just your first paragraph, I don't see that Lk is speaking on our subject, so 12:47,48 is taken out of context and isn't applying to the subject. Though Isa 66:24 speaks of looking on corpses, it doesn't say that this verse follows v. 23 chronologically, that this viewing is during the New Heaven and New Earth. How disgusting would that be if it were true. But that is out of line with what the New H & E are. They are not about old dead corpses lying around.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In regards to just your first paragraph, I don't see that Lk is speaking on our subject, so 12:47,48 is taken out of context and isn't applying to the subject. Though Isa 66:24 speaks of looking on corpses, it doesn't say that this verse follows v. 23 chronologically, that this viewing is during the New Heaven and New Earth. How disgusting would that be if it were true. But that is out of line with what the New H & E are. They are not about old dead corpses lying around.

It will be a temporary display to show the righteous that the wicked have been conquered once and for all by God; But have no worries, God still says in Revelation that there will be no more sorrow, or death, etc. So it seems more likely that after this point, God will not bring into remembrance to them the wicked that perished (So that nobody could ever feel sorrow or pain over the wicked and their perished state).

Oh, and verse 22 in Isaiah 66 says they are on the New Heavens and New Earth.

As for Revelation 14:10-11. Scripture is not always written in chronological order. Many passages write back and forth about things (both past and yet future). The words "smoke of their torment ascended up forever" is a metaphorical phrase taken from Isaiah 34:10. For obviously the city of Edom is still not burning today here upon the Earth. Also, in Revelation 14, we see that they that worship the beast have no rest day or night. This is because at this point in the text it is talking about the time of those who worship the beast. They did not have any rest in worshiping the beast because of their painful boils (See Revelation 16:2).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A soul in Spirit form does not experience "time".
"Time" is a gift from Our Father to delay our
transition from life to our well deserved death
becasue the wages of sin is death.
Any "eternal" reference is due to the timeless
nature of existence outside of the physical.
"Torment" in hell is due to our life lived not
in communion with the Father. It is social
torment rather than physical.

When the Rich-man died he wanted to warn his brothers. Yet, Abraham said that they had Moses and the prophets. If they were already dead and gone, what Abraham said would not be true. I mean, I get where you are coming from. I wanted to defend "hell" as not being a place of torment for the wicked for thousands of years. At one point I tried to use the "time card" to rationalize that hell operates differently in time than our time, but I found it did not work.

The "partial soul sleep card" is the only other rational explanation I found.
This is why I believe that there will be long periods of sleep in "hell" along with moments of time whereby the wicked are also awake or conscious (Like we see in the Story of Lazarus and the Rich-man). For the Scriptures appear to teach both soul sleep and that souls will be conscious or awake after death. One set of verses side with soul sleep, and the other set of verses side with souls being concious and awake after death. This leads me to the conclusion that both set of verses are true.

I mean, it makes logical sense.
There are periods of time that we sleep here on this Earth and there are times that we are awake or concious. I say this because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by way of real world examples (i.e. parables).

People may get nitpicky and say that we only sleep a fraction of the day, though. Well, there always comas that people can lapse into (After a serious blow to the head). Bears can also go into a state of hibernation (or long sleep), as well; And yes. Humans have been referred to as animals before. The Cannaanite woman said that even the dogs (Gentiles) can eat the crumbs from the Master's table.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Just had a thought that involves semantics. You seem to be saying human souls are not immortal, therefore they will not continue to "live" in the lake of fire forever. "Immortal" means they can not die, and that they continue to live. By your thinking, they can not live in the lake of fire because they are not immortal. Yet in God's reckoning unbelievers were not alive to begin with. Sure they breathed, walked around, and even reproduced physically; but spiritually they were dead, spiritually "separated" from God. That is what they will continue to be forever in the Lake of fire, spiritually dead, separated from God, and as conscious of torment as they were when they were spiritually dead walking upon the earth. Rev 20:12 says "And I saw the DEAD...STAND before God..." They are dead spiritually, but standing, conscious before God, to hear their judgment pronounced. In verse 10 we read of Satan being caste into the Lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are (which had entered it a thousand years before and are still there when Satan joins them, having not been annihilated, as people want to believe will relieve sinners of eternal misery."

We cannot conclude that the same fate of the devil and his minions apply to us. Demons have tormented mankind for thousands of years. So surely their punishment would naturally be longer. But again, if you were to read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 on the passages that refer to the devil, you would see that it speaks of the devil's end or destruction in both books. Furthermore, the Scriptures say that the last enemy to be destroyed is "death." This makes us assume that there are other enemies of God (prior to "death") that will also be destroyed, as well.

For the Second Death (i.e. the Lake of Fire) is called the "Second Death" because it relates to the "First Death" which is the end or destruction of our physical body. To assume that the "Second Death" is somehow magically metophorical is to change the meaning of things. It should no longer be called the "Second Death" if one did not die in a similar way like physical death (Whereby the body perishes and is no more). Furthemore, Jesus says in Matthew 10:28 a similar thing. He says fear not the one who can kill the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Again, Jesus relates how we are to:

#1. Not fear man who can kill the body only (vs.)
#2. Fear the One (Jesus) who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire.

Man destroying the body (whereby it perishes) is related to Jesus destroying both body AND SOUL.
It is a contrast of the same thing.
Killing of the body (By Man) vs. killing of the body and soul (By Jesus).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Plus, Jesus says, I come to give you life and that you may have it more abundantly.
It would be a contradiction for Jesus to say this if the wicked would automatically have life in the sense that they could live immoral already, too.


...

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, the text says "everlasting." I believe that word means forever. But again, the text says "everlasting punishment" and the text does not say "everlasting punishing" or "everlasting torture in flames." Everlasting life is contrasted with the everlasting consequences or punishment of being destroyed or erased at some point in the Lake of Fire.....

If this interpretation is correct then the righteous do not have everlasting, eternal life because Jesus said "eternal life" not "eternal living."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If this interpretation is correct then the righteous do not have everlasting, eternal life because Jesus said "eternal life" not "eternal living."

Eternal Life is a Gift (Sort of like a Reward but for free).
Eternal Living is saying the same thing as Eternal Life.
Unless of course you believe that Eternal Life does not involve Eternal Living (Which is silly).

Paul says, they shall be punished with "everlasting destruction." (2 Thessalonians 1:9). This is the everlasting punishment. Destruction! If I destroy a destroy a piece of paper by fire, it is no more. I can say that the piece of paper faced my wrath of everlasting punishment. It is no more. God's Word talks about how the wicked will be like ashes, etc.

One set of consequences is eternal life.
On the contrast,
The other set of consequences is everlasting punishment, which is destruction in the Lake of Fire.

Matthew 25:46 is contrasting eternal life
with:
everlasting punishment (i.e. the consequences of not having eternal life).

The punishment is everlasting in the sense that they are destroyed or annihiated for all time.
(Which is a contrast to):
Life or Living (eternally).

Unlike Matthew 25:46, many times, the word "everlasting" or "forever" is used in a temporal sense. It is forever as long as that thing exists. Philemon 1:15 is a great example of this. Onesimus did not return to his master forever or for all time. Onesimus is still not alive today.

The Lake of Fire is temporary. So the fire is everlasting as long as the Lake of Fire exists.

For example: A person can receive an everlasting reward of 5,000 a month (for the rest of their life). And yet a criminal can receive an everlasting punishment in being placed within prison (for the rest of their life). The time is everlasting ONLY in context of view of the place of where they are at (Which would be upon this Earth). Side Note: Oh, and yes. The Bible does use language that refers to the word "forever" (and or it's related words) in lasting "forever" but only in view upon this Earth, that is temporary (See Post #2 within this thread).

Yes, in some cases the word "everlasting" or "eternal" can just mean "everlasting" (or eternal) like in Matthew 25:46. But the context and the word and the rest of the Bible determine it's use or not. In this case, the word "punishment" suggests a consequence that is NOT an ongoing endless action. For 2 Thessalonians 1:9 tells us that this "everlasting punishment" (taken from Matthew 25:46) is defined as being called "everlasting destruction" and not an "ongoing endless torture in flames."



...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 is the key to understanding of Matthew 25:46.
The words "everlasting punishment" mentioned in Matthew 25:46 is the words "everlasting destruction" told to us in 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

But to say that "everlasting destruction" means an ongoing state of endless torture in flames is not true to the words "everlasting destruction." If I destroy something it is no more. There comes a point that if I keep destroying something it will not exist at some point. Sure, nothing is truly destroyed and it just turns into a different form of energy. But that is splitting hairs. If I burn a piece of paper, I destroyed it. You cannot write on that piece of paper anymore because it does not exist any longer. That piece of paper has faced "everlasting destruction." There is no way for me to recover this piece of paper. It is forever destroyed because it came up against a destruction that was everlasting.


...

 

[Der Alte]

Eternal Life is a Gift (Sort of like a Reward but for free).
Eternal Living is saying the same thing as Eternal Life.
Unless of course you believe that Eternal Life does not involve Eternal Living (Which is silly).
Paul says, they shall be punished with "everlasting destruction." (2 Thessalonians 1:9). This is the everlasting punishment. Destruction! If I destroy a destroy a piece of paper by fire, it is no more. I can say that the piece of paper faced my wrath of everlasting punishment. It is no more. God's Word talks about how the wicked will be like ashes, etc.
One set of consequences is eternal life.
On the contrast,
The other set of consequences is everlasting punishment, which is destruction in the Lake of Fire.
Matthew 25:46 is contrasting eternal life
with:
everlasting punishment (i.e. the consequences of not having eternal life).
The punishment is everlasting in the sense that they are destroyed or annihiated for all time.
(Which is a contrast to):
Life or Living (eternally).
Unlike Matthew 25:46, many times, the word "everlasting" or "forever" is used in a temporal sense. It is forever as long as that thing exists. Philemon 1:15 is a great example of this. Onesimus did not return to his master forever or for all time. Onesimus is still not alive today.
The Lake of Fire is temporary. So the fire is everlasting as long as the Lake of Fire exists.
For example: A person can receive an everlasting reward of 5,000 a month (for the rest of their life). And yet a criminal can receive an everlasting punishment in being placed within prison (for the rest of their life). The time is everlasting ONLY in context of view of the place of where they are at (Which would be upon this Earth). Side Note: Oh, and yes. The Bible does use language that refers to the word "forever" (and or it's related words) in lasting "forever" but only in view upon this Earth, that is temporary (See Post #2 within this thread).
Yes, in some cases the word "everlasting" or "eternal" can just mean "everlasting" (or eternal) like in Matthew 25:46. But the context and the word and the rest of the Bible determine it's use or not. In this case, the word "punishment" sugggests a consequences and not an ongoing endless action. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 tells us that this is "everlasting destruction" and not an "ongoing endless torture in flames."
...

What I said is no sillier than you saying that "eternal punishment" does not mean "eternal punishing." One can't have it both ways. If "eternal life" means "eternal living" then "eternal punishment" means "eternal punishing."
The native Greek speaking early church fathers understood eternal punishment meant punishment that never ends.

٠From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)
٠From Tatian (160AD)
We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.
٠From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)
٠From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)
٠From Irenaeus (189AD)
…Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send ‘spiritual wickednesses,’ and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)
The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)
٠From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)
٠From Tertullian (197AD)
These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)
Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)
Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged–the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire–that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. (“Apology” 48:12)
If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal — expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. — On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 35
٠From Hippolytus of Rome (212AD)
Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ … to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks 3”)
٠From Felix Minucius (226AD)
I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment… Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (“Octavius” 34:12–5:3)
٠From Cyprian of Carthage (252 AD)
An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (“To Demetrian” 24)
Oh,what and how great will that day be at its coming, beloved brethren, when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognize the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! (“To Thibaris” 55:10)
٠From Lactantius (307AD)
But, however, the sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire…The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment …Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment. (“Divine Institutes” 7:21)
٠From Cyril of Jerusalem (350AD)We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed… (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:19)
The real and true life then is the Father, who through the Son in the Holy Spirit pours forth as from a fountain His heavenly gifts to all; and through His love to man, the blessings of the life eternal are promised without fail to us men also. We must not disbelieve the possibility of this, but having an eye not to our own weakness but to His power, we must believe; for with God all things are possible. And that this is possible, and that we may look for eternal life, Daniel declares, And of the many righteous shall they shine as the stars forever and ever. And Paul says, And so shall we be ever with the Lord: for the being forever with the lord implies the life eternal. But most plainly of all the Savior Himself says in the Gospel, And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:28)​

 

[Der Alte]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 is the key to understanding of Matthew 25:46.
The words "everlasting punishment" mentioned in Matthew 25:46 is the words "everlasting destruction" told to us in 2 Thessalonians 1:9....

The word translated "destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is "apolummi." It occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Apolummi is used to describe spilled wine, broken wineskins, tarnished gold, spoiled food, fading beauty, lost sheep, prodigal son etc.
Something or someone who is destroyed cannot be "from the presence of the lord" or anything else.

2 Thesalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; ​

 

[aiki]

As for a literal "hell": Well, I just do not believe there is any Scripture saying that the wicked will burn down there for thousands of years. Yes, the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man appears to suggest he was in the flame, but he also could have been referring to the heat of the flame in front of him (either nearby or in the great gulf between him and Abraham). In other words, when the rich-man said "I am tormented in this flame" (Luke 16:24) it would sort of be like if I said "I am tormented in this soldier." (referring to the flatulence from the soldier in front of me).

There is no Scripture indicating an eternal duration over which a person's time in hell will stretch? Well, what about this one?:

Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

This verse is an example of what is known as a parallelism. This is important to note:

"What is particularly determinative here is the fact that the
duration of punishment for the wicked forms a parallel with
the duration of life for the righteous: the adjective "aionios"
is used to describe both the length of punishment for the
wicked and the length of eternal life for the righteous. One
cannot limit the duration of punishment for the wicked with-
out at the same time limiting the duration of eternal life for
the redeemed. It would do violence to the parallel to give it
an unlimited signification in the case of eternal life, but a
limited one when applied to the punishment of the wicked."
(From: "Reasoning from the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses" - Ron Rhodes)
​

Why do you ignore the preposition "in" when you analyze the state of the Rich Man in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man? In Luke 16:19-31 we read:

23 And being IN torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented IN this flame.'

Your awkward soldier analogy notwithstanding, "in" does not mean "nearby" or "over there." "In" means "in."

For the first appearance of the English word "this" is used by Adam to refer to Eve who was in front of him (Genesis 2:23).

I'm not sure why this is important. "This" does not modify the preposition "in." That is, it does not change the meaning of "in." If I say, "I am in this lake," I quite obviously do not mean I am "near" the lake, or that the lake is "in front of me." I mean, quite obviously, that I am in the lake, submersed in some measure within or inside of it. And the use of "this" does not change the sense of the preposition "in" but only serves as an adjective (or maybe an adverb?) modifying or referring to the noun "lake." The same is true of the words "this" and "in" of the Rich Man in the parable.

Granted, I am not discounting the idea that the rich-man was burning in the actual flame itself, but I do not believe he was burning down there for thousands of years consciously being aware of that fact because God is fair and just in His Judgments.

You sure appear to be discounting the fact that the Rich Man was tormented in flames...

How does it necessarily follow that if God is fair and just no one will be tormented in hell for thousands of years?

Also, if the Rich-man really was engulfed in flames, then how was he able to carry on a normal conversation with Abraham? For today, if a man was tied to a log and then lowered into a roaring camp fire, he would be too busy screaming over his pain so as to carry on a normal conversation with anyone. For if the Rich-man was able to hear Abraham over his own screams of pain, he would be asking Abraham for tons of buckets of water and not a few drops to cool his tongue.

Why do you assume the Rich Man's spiritual form worked exactly as his physical body did? If his spirit survived the death of his physical body, why could it not survive and endure the flames of hell? And why do you assume the flames of eternal hell are exactly like the flames in your fireplace? For one thing, the flames of hell will never go out. Light a fire in your fireplace, though, and eventually the flames will dwindle down and die. It seems to me, then, that trying to understand eternal, spiritual realities via temporal, physical ones is going to quickly lead you astray. Why wasn't the Rich Man in such unbearable agony in the flames of hell that he couldn't even think of conversing with Abraham? As you say, this would be the case if he were alive in his physical body and burning. But this is to make an eternal, spiritual reality directly parallel to our temporal, physical one. They aren't the same, however - as the conduct of the Rich Man in the parable reveals.

Why didn't the Rich Man beg Abraham for buckets of water? Perhaps he recognized that his torment in hell was well-deserved and so could bring himself to ask only for the smallest relief from it. This seems very likely to me...

Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28). While I am not claiming to be an expert on Greek, scholars have said that the word "hell" here is taken from the Greek word "geenna" which is a reference to the Lake of Fire.

But words like "destroy," "death," "die" and "destruction" are not always - or even often - meant in Scripture to be synonymous with "annihilation." If "death," for instance, meant "annihilation" how could there then be a second death a person suffers in hell? We see also in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus that the flames of the Rich Man's torment did not consume him. His "destruction" in hell did not entail his annihilation.

Selah.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What I said is no sillier than you saying that "eternal punishment" does not mean "eternal punishing." One can't have it both ways. If "eternal life" means "eternal living" then "eternal punishment" means "eternal punishing."
The native Greek speaking early church fathers understood eternal punishment meant punishment that never ends.

٠From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)
٠From Tatian (160AD)
We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.
٠From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)
٠From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)
٠From Irenaeus (189AD)
…Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send ‘spiritual wickednesses,’ and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)
The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)
٠From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)
٠From Tertullian (197AD)
These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)
Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)
Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged–the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire–that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. (“Apology” 48:12)
If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal — expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. — On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 35
٠From Hippolytus of Rome (212AD)
Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ … to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks 3”)
٠From Felix Minucius (226AD)
I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment… Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (“Octavius” 34:12–5:3)
٠From Cyprian of Carthage (252 AD)
An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (“To Demetrian” 24)
Oh,what and how great will that day be at its coming, beloved brethren, when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognize the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! (“To Thibaris” 55:10)
٠From Lactantius (307AD)
But, however, the sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire…The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment …Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment. (“Divine Institutes” 7:21)
٠From Cyril of Jerusalem (350AD)We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed… (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:19)
The real and true life then is the Father, who through the Son in the Holy Spirit pours forth as from a fountain His heavenly gifts to all; and through His love to man, the blessings of the life eternal are promised without fail to us men also. We must not disbelieve the possibility of this, but having an eye not to our own weakness but to His power, we must believe; for with God all things are possible. And that this is possible, and that we may look for eternal life, Daniel declares, And of the many righteous shall they shine as the stars forever and ever. And Paul says, And so shall we be ever with the Lord: for the being forever with the lord implies the life eternal. But most plainly of all the Savior Himself says in the Gospel, And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:28)​

First, History is not my authority on spiritual matters. History can be written by the victors. Please provide the Word of God. That is the real source of authority here in providing the truth. For just pointing to a group of believers in the past does not prove anything. Just because men lived in the past and believed something does not mean they are right.

Second, if I say that somebody has eternal life and that somebody was eternally living it is saying the same thing. But if I say that there is everlasting punishment versus everlasting punishing there is a difference. With the word "punishment" and "punishing": One suggests a a one time event type action and the other expresses a present tense action. Now, "living" or "life" is more a state of being versus the word "punishment" (Which is an action or verb). If I live or if I have life, it does not necessarily mean I am taking action (Which is a verb). I can sleep and have life. I can sit very still and have life. So just having life does not always equate with an action per say. Yes, something that is alive does move, but the word "life" is not really a verb or an action exactly. It is more of a state of being (Which then leads to action as a result of that state of being). The words "punishment" and "punishing" are action words or verbs. It is something that somebody can do to someone else. Yes, God can make us "alive" and or to make us to "live eternally" but this would be God making us to exist in a particular state. Punishment (a one time event) and or punishing (on going continual action) is something that God would do to a particular individual that is for either correction and or to execute justice. God inflicts the Lake of Fire as a part of His punishment upon the wicked. This is an action whereby those who are punished are hurt and destroyed by the flames of the Lake of Fire. Whereas God giving life eternally to somebody means God is giving life to an individual whereby their state is changed as a part of their being. They will live eternally. Good things that God can do for those who have eternal life is an action that God can then take part in as a part of this new changed state (i.e. eternal life). Receiving a new living body does not neccesarily mean one is gaining a reward. For there is the resurrection of the damned, as well. But just receiving a new living body does not mean anything unless that body continues to live on in everlasting state. However, the problem with your belief technically speaking (in light of this) is that the wicked have everlasting life because they live eternally being tortured for all time by the flames of the Lake of Fire (Which of course is a contradiction of Scripture). The wicked in your book, also have eternal life (i.e. they are living in an eternal state). This does not make a lick of sense (Especially when we read about receiving eternal life or when we read about how we will never die).


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